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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 07:32 AM   #21
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbabe
Since Bush #2 came to power the federal debt has skyrocketed. Now we pay over 400 billion dollars a year interest on the debt. That's a fact which came about because of the choices that Bush and his Republican congress made. The tax cut and increased spending on Wars.

China has just made noises about not accumulating so more dollars. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4875606.stm What will happen when they stop buying our treasuries? What will happen when the dollar falls so much that our government can't borrow at a reasonable interest rate?

Some economists predict that the solution to this disaster is 70s style inflation and it is only a decade away.

All this will be a nasty inheritance from the Bush #2 admininistration and his Republican congress.
Yes indeed.
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 07:58 AM   #22
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

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Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
I blame the government we have squarely on the voters. They put the current 'leaders' in power.

If the voters believe you can have tax cuts and increased spending without running into financial problems, ala Reagan and Bush Jr., then why would you wonder when the chickens come home to roost?

Even today I hear so called 'Conservatives' thinking Reagan did a great job of balancing the books.
I said that the second time the people re elected Bush. The american people get what they deserve, an incompitent nincompoop along with his ill equiped hangers on.



Kinda like the poor guy in a beat up row boat two months after Katrina hit and saying he was dumbfounded at the federal and state response after another Bush visit. He said I am one of the jerks who voted for Bush
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 09:14 AM   #23
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

400 billion dollars! Now that is a nice chunk of change. However, does anyone know of any articles that puts that into perspective? How doe that compare to other war time spending rates? How doe it compare with GDP, adjusted for inflation, of past congresses?

Someone once said, (paraphrase) ‘Remember Statistics Never Lie, people who quote them often do.’ All too often I read headlines talking about ‘the largest spending/dept for (fill in the blank) ever’. Yet the author never relates, that inflation is the cause, and the rate of spending is the same.

This is not to justify Republican spending. More than the Iraq, out of control Republican spending cost them power. At least it was the over riding reason for my displeasure.
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 09:59 AM   #24
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbabe
Since Bush #2 came to power the federal debt has skyrocketed. Now we pay over 400 billion dollars a year interest on the debt. That's a fact which came about because of the choices that Bush and his Republican congress made. The tax cut and increased spending on Wars.

China has just made noises about not accumulating so more dollars. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4875606.stm What will happen when they stop buying our treasuries? What will happen when the dollar falls so much that our government can't borrow at a reasonable interest rate?

Some economists predict that the solution to this disaster is 70s style inflation and it is only a decade away.

All this will be a nasty inheritance from the Bush #2 admininistration and his Republican congress.
I voted for Bush II 4 times. The first time was when he ran for Texas gov and I thought he'd be good. After that it was only because the dems put up total losers by comparison and I agree that others will disagree. Much of what Bush II has done is way different from what I would have liked to have seen done. He has clearly demonstrated he does not fit my definition of a conservative.

Oldbabe, you do have some traces of Kool Aid still on your lips. Our budget deficit is at record dollar levels but it is low as a comparison to our GDP. I would like it to be lower but I'd get there by reducing the social spending which might find objections with you and others on this forum.

China will stop selling to us because they don't want any more dollars? Who, pray tell, are they going to sell to? I suspect China will go on a buying binge in the US and the rest of the world with their dollars and Euros ala the Japanese in the 1980s and the mid-east oil countries are doing now. China tried to buy a US oil company that got shot down. They will be back. They won't stop selling to us because we are the largest market on earth.

I tend to agree with your view of "inflation" hitting but I think it will be in the form of "depreciation" of the US dollar similar to what happened to the pound sterling starting in the beginning of the 20th century. That was when the pound was slowly replaced by the dollar as the "world currency." People would feel more comfortable with something else but the Euro has so many structural flaws it isn't ready to take over leadership. Right now, my guess is that there will be a move to a "basket of currency" approach where the dollar will play a role but the Euro, Pound, Yen and Yuan will be larger players.

I would like to see the dem congress fix the problem but I am not encouraged with what I've seen to date. They've demonstrated they want to investigate GW to the end of his term and talk "impeachment." It may sell well to the dem base but it won't "fix" anything. I hear nothing but rhetoric and posturing. There is a clear positioning for the next election when I think the dems will have to put forth a "unique" candidate to lose the White House. The repubs have next to no chance which is why there aren't a lot of stronger candidates coming forth from their quarter.

Bush II will fade into history. He presided over a very strong economy with an emphasis on his second term as did Clinton I. The business cycle has not been repealed but all politicos claim the upside and blame the "other party" for the down years. I don't see a strong "legacy" being established for him (nor do I for Clinton I). Bush II has had some positives but the big story is Iraq. He will ultimately be judged by how Iraq turns out viewed 50 years from now. Right now that doesn't look too good.

BTW -- If Rick Perry (current gov of Texas) is on the repub ballot, I highly recommend voting for some other party. Dem, liber or communist for all I care but he deserves a quiet retirement ASAP. I can't imagine a worse gov for this state. He has already made noise about being "available" for the VP slot and I almost upchucked.

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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 10:35 AM   #25
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

I vote Democratic almost exclusively because I am unhappy with what has happened to civil liberties in the past 6 years. Yes, I know, worse things have happened in the past but that doesn't discount what is occurring now. However, neither party appears to be able to find a balanced budget with both hands and a GPS. Both sides value bringing home the bacon over long-term fiscal or social responsibility. IMHO we need either electable libertarians or a balanced budget amendment.
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 11:04 AM   #26
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

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Originally Posted by 2B

Oldbabe, you do have some traces of Kool Aid still on your lips. Our budget deficit is at record dollar levels but it is low as a comparison to our GDP. I would like it to be lower but I'd get there by reducing the social spending which might find objections with you and others on this forum.
The facts say otherwise. Check out this chart from the Century Foundation (scroll down to figure 2, The National Debt as a Percentage of GDP). http://www.socsec.org/publications.asp?pubid=540
The percentage has risen dramatically for every Republican administration since Eisenhower and fallen for every Democratic administration. It is now at its highest level since around 1956.



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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 12:17 PM   #27
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

"Jimmy Carter, even worse than GWB." Get your sweaters out.

I couldn't wait to vote for Ronald Reagan after Carter's misery index raising presidency. I'm waiting for the historians to research and write the story about his bumbling "leadership."

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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 12:33 PM   #28
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????


Here's there The Cato Institute report on Presidents' spending . It's from 2005.
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????
Old 04-14-2007, 02:47 PM   #29
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Re: "Where the h.... is the outrage????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldbabe
The facts say otherwise. Check out this chart from the Century Foundation (scroll down to figure 2, The National Debt as a Percentage of GDP). http://www.socsec.org/publications.asp?pubid=540
The percentage has risen dramatically for every Republican administration since Eisenhower and fallen for every Democratic administration. It is now at its highest level since around 1956.
The link you used was from an off shoot of the Century Foundation -- slightly left of center. I couldn't find an equivalent link to the official US government data. I'm sure it's there I just am not willing to chase it down all afternoon. The data linked for the report you cited goes to a non-US government website which makes me somewhat wary. The data do appear to be reasonable but the last 2 years were both estimates. Actual 2006 data from the US Treasury website was lower than the estimate. I didn't check on 2005.

Your referenced article made their "point" by using "total debt" which includes the laughable (IMHO) treasury debt that is issued to the SS Administration and not the "debt held by the public" which is generally considered the "true" US debt. One part of the federal govt owing another part of the federal govt money doesn't really seem to be "true" debt. Using "debt held by the public" tells a different picture with the debt between 1992 and 1999 averaging 46.7% (Clinton). The period from 2000 on (using the estimated values) averages 36.2% (Bush II).

The overall publically held debt fell during Nixon, went up slightly under Carter, went up strongly during Reagan and Bush I. Clinton rode the crest and it began to come down during his second term. Bush II has been pretty flat until the estimated data shows a big uptick (Katrina? Iraq?) The debt correlates better with the overall economy than repub vs. dem which seemed to be the goal/point of your reference.

Increasing "debt" to the SS Administration reflects the employment taxes (SS and Medicare) collected rather than the pseudo-debt it creates -- the sign of the strength of our economy. Hopefully, you don't believe you have a real account with the SS Administration that has your money in it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
The Cato institute is definitely a conservative think tank. I'm suspicious of their numbers but didn't bother to look into them. At first glance Oldbabe's reference was a shock. The numbers just didn't hold up and it became clear they were supporting their agenda.

I believe Carter was probably the smartest and most decent "modern" president but everything that poor man touched seemed to go to crap. His presidency will be forever tainted by having the US impotent for many months by the Iranians.

He would be a great ex-president if he'd just stick to building houses. Both Clinton I and Carter just can't stop trying to bash the current president. That was the most unseemly part of Teddy R. I'm sure they will be judged the same. Presidents have historically done best if they leave gracefully and let the new man run the country.
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