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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-15-2007, 11:58 PM   #41
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

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Originally Posted by Laurence
I would entertain a bundled amendment that made voting mandatory and had a material you had to read with a quiz at the end before you actually voted (anyone who has done computer based training knows what I'm talking about).
Could we get that in Tagalog, Ilocano, and Hongul? Oh, and Thai too while you're at it, please.

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Originally Posted by RustyShackleford
My God in heaven, what rock did this moron crawl out from under ?
It's the polite and reasoned tone of discourse like that which makes this board such an enjoyable experience...

The idea can be traced back to Robert Heinlein's book "Starship Troopers", where only veterans were called "citizens" and allowed to vote. (The movie doesn't count, although I prefer the Denise Richards version.) He developed a number of other interesting civics ideas from his time at the U.S. Naval Academy, his 1930s active duty, his medical retirement for tuberculosis, and his life through the Cold War. But I think he declined to join the John Birch Society because he felt they were a bunch of liberal pinkos.

I think some sort of national service to earn the right to vote is a wonderful idea. It doesn't have to be military-- it could be something like the Peace Corps or the old CCC or the Americorps concept. I know a few hospitals that could benefit from candy-striper help, as well as not a few public-transportation cleaning crews...

And there's nothing wrong with a civilian Commander in Chief, as long as she's a veteran or has at least one of her kids on active duty... same for the Congresspeople who get to vote on wars and military appropriations!
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 06:30 AM   #42
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense too. What the heck, make all 535 of them be veteran's!
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 07:38 AM   #43
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

To expand on the "Starship Troopers" voting idea, IIRC, those who served inthe military and those who didn't enjoyed entirely equal protection by the state (same rights, etc.) The only distinction was the right to vote (and maybe to hold office?). His idea was that you had to "earn" the franchise, demonstrate a commttment to the country and the common good through service. And, nobody could be turned down regardless of physical condition.

Heinlein was also a big opponent of any national draft/compulsory service.

Certainly controversial, but not without merit.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 07:54 AM   #44
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

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Originally Posted by samclem
Certainly controversial, but not without merit.
Complete and utter bullshit and totally unsupported by historical precedent and anything in our nation's fundamental documents (Constitution, Declaration, etc.). Go play that tune in North Korea, where it would get a warm reception.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:22 AM   #45
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Complete and utter bull**** and totally unsupported by historical precedent and anything in our nation's fundamental documents (Constitution, Declaration, etc.). Go play that tune in North Korea, where it would get a warm reception.
Well you can't dispute that line of.....uh.....reasoning. :
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:24 AM   #46
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

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Well you can't dispute that line of.....uh.....reasoning. :
Has as much or more merit as military types saying only military types should be in charge, um, because they say so.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:34 AM   #47
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Has as much or more merit as military types saying only military types should be in charge, um, because they say so.
I'm not sure which is more dangerous... putting military types in charge or letting the wars be run by civilians!
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:36 AM   #48
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345
Has as much or more merit as military types saying only military types should be in charge, um, because they say so.
The "military types" suggested other forms of national service would also qualify. A gal/guy could empty bedpans in a VA hospital to earn their franchise.

Lots of things were not in the foundng documents. We've made a couple of modifications since then: women's suffrage, emancipation of slaves, etc. Most folks think these were improvements

I cant vote at a GM sharehlder's meeting unless I've demonstrated a commttment and shared mutual interst (by buying stock). This idea is similar in intent.

Don't worry, it won't happen. Which voters would vote to disenfranchise themselves? After all, the vote is the best legal way to have the government appropriate the property of others on one's behalf. Folks won't give that up!

Thank for the thoughtful reply!
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:36 AM   #49
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

All I know is, either way it'd look better with a little benny hill music in the background.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:39 AM   #50
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
I'm not sure which is more dangerous... putting military types in charge or letting the wars be run by civilians!
I'd think having wars run by civilians who think they are military experts, would be the worst situation. If they are civilians who know they don't know anything about running a war then you can work with them. Complete military in charge, in my opinion, won't work.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 08:57 AM   #51
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

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Originally Posted by lets-retire
I'd think having wars run by civilians who think they are military experts, would be the worst situation.
I wonder how ol' Bob McNamara is doing these days. I bet Jane Fonda is interested in how he's making peace with his God...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
If they are civilians who know they don't know anything about running a war then you can work with them.
It's that "know they don't know" skill that's so hard to come by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
Complete military in charge, in my opinion, won't work.
Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush Senior.

Bill Clinton.

Not sure where to put Reagan (in his own mind he was a heroic veteran!) or Bush Junior. Military service can't cure idiocy.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 12:01 PM   #52
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

I think national defense is vital to our country. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have served in the military.

I think our education system is vital to the country. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have completed a PhD and been a teacher.

I think our economy is critical to the country and it is fueled by corporations. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have been a CEO of a major corporation. If they don't know how corporations run, they clearly can't run the country.

Clearly one of the great challenges facing our nation is our health care system. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have been a medical doctor.

Many of today's issues are directly influenced by modern technology. No one should be allowed to be President unless they have been an engineer.



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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 12:11 PM   #53
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Maybe the reason there are more Democrats on this Board is because Republicans like money more. Perhaps Republicans are more inclined to keep working even after they have enough to live comfortably while Democrats are more inclined to revert to their "Hippie" roots.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-16-2007, 12:44 PM   #54
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Quote:
Quote:
My God in heaven, what rock did this moron crawl out from under ?
It's the polite and reasoned tone of discourse like that which makes this board such an enjoyable experience...
Thanks, I aim to please. Ok, a little hot under the collar I guess, but it troubles me
to find there are people so completely out of touch with the fundamental principles that
make this country special, or that just don't take them seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords
I'm not sure which is more dangerous... putting military types in charge or letting the wars be run by civilians!
I would have to say, clearly the former. However, I agree that the latter can be
problematic. Take Donald Rumsfeld for example. The wisest civilian CinC's and
cabinet members realize their limitations and let the military do things as they
know best (FDR, George HW Bush) and don't try to micromanage for political
reasons (LBJ, Chimpy MacFlightsuit).

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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-17-2007, 09:15 AM   #55
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgeeeee
I think national defense is vital to our country. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have served in the military.

I think our education system is vital to the country. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have completed a PhD and been a teacher.

I think our economy is critical to the country and it is fueled by corporations. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have been a CEO of a major corporation. If they don't know how corporations run, they clearly can't run the country.

Clearly one of the great challenges facing our nation is our health care system. Therefore no one should be allowed to be President unless they have been a medical doctor.

Many of today's issues are directly influenced by modern technology. No one should be allowed to be President unless they have been an engineer.
I'll settle for a guy that can get through a speech without mumbling and bumbling and someone who can pronounce the word "nuclear" properly. There should be a rule that if you cant say it, you cant use it.

But lets take time from putting food on our families to honor our current commander in chief.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-17-2007, 09:16 AM   #56
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny
I'll settle for a guy that can get through a speech without mumbling and bumbling and someone who can pronounce the word "nuclear" properly.
Heh! Good luck. Anyone who passes that test is hated by the unwashed masses.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-17-2007, 10:01 AM   #57
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cute 'n Fuzzy Bunny

But lets take time from putting food on our families to honor our current commander in chief.
Is Gabe giving you a hard time today
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-17-2007, 10:13 AM   #58
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

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Heh! Good luck. Anyone who passes that test is hated by the unwashed masses.
Popularity certainly helps at election time, but what does it do for the historical perspective? When Lincoln was president, the general public (helped by the newspapers and his critics) saw him as uneducated country hick. In the election of 1860 he won with only 39% of the popular vote. From my history classes I remember the political cartoons of the day depicting Lincoln as a monkey and the village idiot. Even some of the eulogies after his assasination were thinly veiled lists of all his failings.

Lincoln of course was the one of the presidents who was severely criticized for actions he took in defense of the nation during a time of emergency that were in violation of the Constitution. He was the guy who suspended Habeas Corpus in parts of the country, tried civilians in military tribunals, and ignored the Supreme Court when it ruled he did not have such powers.

The War of Northern Aggression against the secessionist states was against the Constitution, as were many of Lincoln's actions during the war, but ultimately he preserved what would become a great nation. A century and a half later we look at the war as both one of the most noble and most tragic events in our history. And in the same way, future historians will be the judges of the presidents of our time. Both the "unwashed masses", and self-appointed elitists who look down their noses upon them, will be footnotes at best.

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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-17-2007, 10:15 AM   #59
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

Please tell me you are not comparing Lincoln with the current occupant of the white house. The chimp isn't fit to drink Lincoln's urine.
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?
Old 01-17-2007, 11:31 AM   #60
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Re: Which party did you vote for in the last 4 Presidential Elections?

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Please tell me you are not comparing Lincoln with the current occupant of the white house.
I'm a history buff and I do see similarities, not between the men, but between their situations and how they were perceived and how they were judged by history. Presidents do things that are seen as popular and unpopular, but history looks at the results and judges differently. Adams used the sedition laws to lock up people (including a congress critter) who criticized his handling of the war with France, Lincoln locked up his critics and tried them before military tribunals, Woodrow Wilson tossed his critics of World War One in jail (look up Eugene Debs), FDR locked up 100,000+ Americans who were of the same race as one of our enemies, Nixon had his plumbers, etc and so on.

I was just pointing out what I thought was something interesting. That, and while I genuinely respect your superior knowledge about many things financial, I'm not such a fan when you refer to your fellow Americans as "the unwashed masses".

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