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Old 12-14-2007, 03:52 PM   #21
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I hate paying taxes as much as the next person, but if I make a mess I figure it's my job to clean it up. I didn't vote for any of the presidents who have run up the debt, but it happened on my watch, so I figure it's my job (and all of us "adults") to pay up and not pass this mess on to the the next generation.
Granted the alternative minimum tax may not be the best vehicle, but we have made a very big mess (national debt) and we have to clean it up. If not with taxes, then how?
If you think we shouldn't have to pay taxes, then how else do we pay the debt and run the government? I really want to know what the anti-tax folks know that I don't.
Sincerely.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:32 PM   #22
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Granted the alternative minimum tax may not be the best vehicle, but we have made a very big mess (national debt) and we have to clean it up. If not with taxes, then how?
Fiscal responsibility. Cut spend less on items that are not absolutely needed or are very wasteful (i.e. keep those items specifically itemized in the Constitution, not interpreted to be in there). Don't institute more entitlement programs until the ones already operating are fiscally sound.
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Old 12-14-2007, 04:40 PM   #23
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Taxes are like cocaine to politicians. You will never solve fiscal problems by raising taxes. Look at the SS tax at inception and presently. Did the increase save SS?

Politicians stay in office by spending your and my money. Until we change that no tax hike will be large enough.

The problem is on the spending side not the taxing side. Why do you think they did/do earmarks in the dead of night?

And how the heck does this flow into the history of the internet?
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:13 PM   #24
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Taxes are like cocaine to politicians. You will never solve fiscal problems by raising taxes. Look at the SS tax at inception and presently. Did the increase save SS?
It was doing great under Clinton.

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Politicians stay in office by spending your and my money. Until we change that no tax hike will be large enough.
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.Sir Winston Churchill"
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The problem is on the spending side not the taxing side. Why do you think they did/do earmarks in the dead of night?
Again I refer you to http://zfacts.com/p/59.html Surely we on Retire Early understand you need to spend less than you take in. But some presidents don't get that, and others have to clean up after them. I guess the answer is don't vote for people who don't get that.

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And how the heck does this flow into the history of the internet?
It has to do with the smear campaign on Al Gore that this thread is about.

Ok, no one has answered my question of how we clean up our mess and run a government without taxes. I'm done, because I'm just making people angry, and not learning anything new.
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Old 12-14-2007, 05:37 PM   #25
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You seem to be under the impression that Presidents spend money.

I was always under the impression that it was Congress that holds the purse strings.
Which one of missed government class?

If I am right, could it be the Clinton era was aided by a new Republican congress, just as the Bush era was destroyed by an over spending Republican congress.
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:07 PM   #26
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Ah yes, another happy thread where everyone learns something new, intriguing dialog takes place, and everyone walks away pleased with their early-retirement.org experience...
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:14 PM   #27
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Despite Algore's fictitious claims, see:

Who invented the Internet?
Don't you mean ARPANET
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:20 PM   #28
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Ah yes, another happy thread where everyone learns something new, intriguing dialog takes place, and everyone walks away pleased with their early-retirement.org experience...

What's funny is some of the posters on this thread were the same ones on the ignore political thread .
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Old 12-14-2007, 08:32 PM   #29
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I didn't vote for any of the presidents who have run up the debt
Then you're either very young or you've always voted for the losing candidate, because the national debt has increased under every president at least going back to LBJ.
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Old 12-14-2007, 11:13 PM   #30
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Then you're either very young or you've always voted for the losing candidate, because the national debt has increased under every president at least going back to LBJ.
I appreciate your response but I'm finished as I said above - I enjoy this forum and don't want to be a negative influence. We can agree to disagree on this and other things.
This is too much like dinner with relatives! How about them Yankees?

Speaking of early Internet, anybody remember Compuserve? I remember thinking how cool it was to have such a rich source of geek wisdom and what an exclusive club it felt like. And before that, individual dial-up bulletin boards? Punching the number on the phone, then quickly jamming the phone receiver into the rubber cradle and hoping the whiny buzz-click would connect?

And those pesky pterodactyls beating against the windows?
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Old 12-14-2007, 11:47 PM   #31
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I agree that this thread is going nowhere, because no one's mind will be changed, .......
The internet is a wonderful thing, and I still marvel at how one can type on a keyboard in South Podunk, America, give order to some electrons, and communicate around the world with anyone who has access. A real miracle. For those interested in some actually quite interesting background on the development of the Internet, and about those who participated, I commend you back to the history link I gave in my original post. Where would the ER Forums be without the Internet? Would we all be writing snailmail letters to each other? If we even could ferret each other out?

Now toofrugal, it is really broadminded of you to unilaterally decide (as you did in your post quoted above) that everyone else have already made their minds up and will not be interested or swayed by further discussion. At any rate, I take it your mind was already made up. If so, feel free to ignore.

You and I do agree though on some things. I grant you that Mr Gore did not say "invented", rather he talked of "creating". Also we both referenced Mr Gore's speech on CNN in 1999 wherein Mr Gore said: “During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system.

Now apologists for Mr Gore still parse his words, and explain what he "really" meant. Most people, however, cannot read what was in his mind or heart, we have only has actual words to go on. He said "I" took the initiative in "creating the Internet". Note that he does not refer to anyone else, does not say that he was merely one of several people who "HELPED" in creating the Internet, or "ASSISTED" in creating the Internet". Mr Gore said "I", period.

Even for just an oral interview, as opposed to a book or position paper, that "oversight" in leaving out any mention of anyone else, but saying "I" alone, is near to hubris.

Consider the definition of the word "create". Per the American Heritage dictionary, "create" means": 1. To cause to exist; bring into being. 2. To give rise to; produce.

Now it was Mr Gore who chose to say "I took the initiative in creating the Internet". What are most people then to think Mr Gore has communicated with his statements? Forgive me, at least, for thinking he has tried to claim credit, with no mention of anyone else, for creating the Internet.

Forget Mr Gore, however. The Internet really is a marvel that makes this ER Forum's very existence possible. And the history behind its development as told at the link in my original post makes for interesting reading.
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Old 12-15-2007, 12:47 AM   #32
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Here's a prime example of a thread that should be shot in the face.

Old news, incorrect assumptions, misstatements, no value, no new learning, nothing remotely worth discussing to create any interesting new perspective.

Like I said, you know it when you see it.

Just something designed to piss off 48-52% of the readers.
Hey Fuzzy, where would the ER Forums be without the Internet? Did you read through some of the background info on development of the Internet found at the link I gave (and several sublinks within it) in my original post?

You claim "no new learning", but geeze, I just have to believe you didn't even try.:confused:

As to your "threads that should be shot in the face" comment, with your post count of 17000+, it seems you have mightily contributed more than your share of "no new learning".

Go ahead, open the link I gave and a few of the sublinks available within. I dare you to learn one thing new.
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:01 AM   #33
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Don't you mean ARPANET

Reading some of the sublinks within the first link I gave, I did see reference to the Arpanet, and the timeline in the history where that term came in. I need to go back and read that again, I think there was further sublink to more discussion of "Arpanet" and how that term is defined, and if there is some technical differentiation of it from "Interent".

However, since most people talk about the "Internet" (even Mr Gore), I so titled the thread.
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Old 12-15-2007, 06:50 AM   #34
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[quote=RetireeRobert;588825]Dreams Worth Dreaming are Dreams Worth Planning For. I Spent a Career Planning for Early Retirement. quote]

How dare you claim that YOU are the one responsible for making early retirement possible for the rest of us?
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Old 12-15-2007, 07:59 AM   #35
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Interesting to note the Senate just shot down House Chairman Wrangel's version of bill 88-5, and sent the matter back to House. Wrangel was on record against the Senate version just passed which gives another year AMT relief to the millions of middle class taxpayers who would otherwise have to pay it.
Bit off more than he could chew. Rather than a patch, Rangel wanted AMT repeal and made it up with tax increases on higher income tax payers.
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Old 12-15-2007, 09:48 AM   #36
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How about them Yankees?
Very happy about the resigning of A-Rod, Posada, and Rivera. Very disappointed in the Mitchell report naming Clemens and Pettitte as possibly having used illegal substances.
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Old 12-15-2007, 11:49 AM   #37
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Yankees suck!

Go sox!

GO PATS!!!

Hmm, I wonder if Boston has a kayaking team...
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:04 PM   #38
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Kayak?
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File Type: jpg untitled%20%28Small%29.JPG (29.4 KB, 2 views)
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:08 PM   #39
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Bit off more than he could chew. Rather than a patch, Rangel wanted AMT repeal and made it up with tax increases on higher income tax payers.

I wonder if Congress is going to get anything done on AMT relief done before New Years? Or are the House and Senate going to battle things out for a few months now?
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Old 12-15-2007, 01:27 PM   #40
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Hmm, another reason for going back to that design I was working on for the kayak with an 88mm deck gun...

Then I'd just have to figure out how to get the sucker into a crock pot.
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