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Old 09-30-2007, 01:21 PM   #61
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In our house I've noticed no ill-effects from teet washing.
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Old 09-30-2007, 01:23 PM   #62
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My issue is confined to a subset of all those foods: Those foods, often but not always, in the center of the grocery store--all the canned, packaged, and altered with (toxic) chemicals.
You mean like the evil toxic poison sodium nitrite?

Sodium Nitrite May Be a Cheap, Potent Therapy for Heart Attacks, Strokes and Other Ailments, September 13, 2005 Audio Reports - National Institutes of Health (NIH)
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Old 09-30-2007, 01:28 PM   #63
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In our house I've noticed no ill-effects from teet washing.
After all, cleanliness is next to godlessness godliness...

OAP,

One of my great-uncles was a dairy farmer back when. My veins are probably still clogged from the 1000% butterfat milk we used to have for breakfast. He did, however, wash the teets.

Amusing anecdote: Uncle Jack used to keep the radio on WHAS-AM in the milkhouse. The radio would "pulse" everytime the milker system would cycle on. The cows would sway in time with the music/milker...
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Old 09-30-2007, 01:46 PM   #64
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Al,
ever consider a Bay Area young Asian teet washerette, hand polished? Not sure that would make your cow's milk taste any better but it might take your mind off that issue.


HFWR,
funny about the cows, wonder if the milk tasted different with Alvin Lee playing Hey Joe, than it did with Hank Williams singing Poor Old Kawlijah. A little James Brown and you get chocolate milk?

My good friend in Iowa has birds that listen to Beck's Scarecrow and really get to rocking.


And for ERD50,
dude you are too cool for most. Kinda like you went to a turkey shoot and some farmer had allowed his turkeys to eat corn from old shotgun barrels. Nothing like plunkin down your $2 bucks and having a turkey walk up and stick it's head in the 12 guage's barrel.

Ooops, I musta watched Seargent York too many times.

Bush and Cheney are definitely responsible for adding Viagra to cow feed.
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Old 09-30-2007, 03:19 PM   #65
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samclem:

flippant


Main Entry: flip·pant
Pronunciation: 'fli-p&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: probably from 1flip
1 archaic : GLIB, TALKATIVE
2 : lacking proper respect or seriousness

It got political for me when I perceived you acting like Bush-leaguer. When Tony Snow was around I used to watch him on TV once in a while. Sometimes when he caught in a lie or some other transgression from a previous press meeting, he would sort of flip it off during the current meeting by saying "you guys take me too serious sometimes." . . . when this was about something going wrong in Iraq or some other misperception of events, I was often disgusted that Snow would attempt to twist this into the press's fault for not being able to recognize his 'lightness of tone" or some other non-verbal cue that Snow implied he thought was apparent to all.

I see you doing something similar. What appeared to me initially as an attempt by you to make a sincere, legitimate, and logical argument about old folks and disease was transmogrified into my inability to see your flippancy. I addressed the illogic of your argument. You said you were just being flippant--after the fact. I saw no signs or hints in your original argument that you were being flippant. So I treated you respectfully and properly, taking your argument as a serious one--not a flippant one.

As I said, I see this pattern of behavior among a certain group of folks. It usually means they don't want a legitimate and reasoned argument. They just want to twist and manipulate things into a nasty little knot. I see it as emotional sophistry. I may have over-reacted. But I also think you can see how I came to the conclusion I did.

Sophism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.................................................. ........................................

I have been watching for four years now how Bush and his neocons have manipulated and twisted things into the contorted and disappointing Iraqi/Middle East policy we have today. By adding additional layers of emotional and perceptual contortions the mess is far worse than it should have been. We shouldn't do this with milk too.
.................................................. .................................................. ............

Also, we really don't know with any reasonable assurances that humans can't easily live comfortable lives for an easy hundred years or so. But we do know that many of these degenerative diseases that I've hinted at, and diabetes comes to my immediate mind, have significantly increased in numbers and in the percentages of folks who have it, especially over the past ten years. Even very young children are showing symptoms nowadays. This didn't happen quite so much before when kids got more exercise and less corn syrup and sugar and stuff. It is never the compound or chemical itself that is the problem, it is the lack of moderation in its usage and, perhaps, putting it where it shouldn't be. Nitroglycerin in large quantities is dangerous; in a small quantity, say a pill under the tongue for someone with angina, it's a good thing. Two pills in a row may be bad--or no. Lots of examination and exploration still needs to be done, especially regarding teets.
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Old 09-30-2007, 06:15 PM   #66
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wow, greg. Who brought politics into this?

Geez, I though the poodle-fin reference I made was an obvious attempt at over-statement to make a point, not a serious analysis. I'll try to stay closer to topic if this is going to cause problems. I find this criticism a bit odd from someone who was recently making very loose references to monkey tools?
And I responded in kind with a whack-o over-statement about poodle skirts also. My real response wasn't in the first paragraph but in the second. And I never attacked your poodle skirt comment or saw it as an argument point. I believe I saw your point and demonstrated that understanding by pushing the same point a tad further--in kind. I hoped you saw that.

Also, if I remember correctly, my reference to monkey tools wasn't loose--it was purposefully ambiguous and intentionally a pun--if the pun was seen as such it added a bit of lightness to the argument. I usually attempt this in many arguments-perceptions as you know.
.................................................. ........................................

Here's how I see Rush Limbaugh and many of his sort. When I have listened to him on the radio at times he seems to frequently find some crazy whack-o thing that someone does and then somehow associate it with Liberals. Then he says this whack-o behavior is common among or around Liberals--in that environment anyway. I can still remember fairly vividly the last time I listened to him. It was about some teacher that had sex with one of her students, a young boy. He implicitly and explicitly said that teachers all come from a liberal-Democrat-union environment, and it was that particular environment that created that very situation of child molestation and anything goes attitude. He took a specific whack-o event, tried to tie it to a specific group of people and then generalized even further by explicitly stating that all those dang liberals are like that. All this from a single person and event. Amazing what some folks listen to on a regular basis. The master of not just hyperbole but false hyperbole and the spinning of untruth to the masses.

So, when I start seeing over-statement and exaggeration, I see Limbaugh, neocons, GWB, and a rush to spin. I was letting you know that I saw it coming in, um, poodle skirts too. Live long and prosper.
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Old 09-30-2007, 08:47 PM   #67
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wow, leave the house for a great day out and look what happens! y'all have been busy!

i studied a lot about the food system and agriculture - both US big agro business and rural/sustainable farming in developing countries...and i don't think a lot of the inventions of super seeds, etc were with anything but good intentions (well, perhaps a dose of profit motive ) involved... and now, yes, 50 or so years later it's time to scratch are heads and say what the consequences are that aren't immediate (ie we don't keel over the minute we eat it or after we plant it, spray it, whatever).

you can believe or not that the rising number of autistic, asthmatic and/or overweight kids have something to do with how we plant/process food. and that polluting the water, land, plants, fishes etc. does or doesn't have an affect on cancer rates or degradation of the environment.

but at some point there will be a convergance - that yes it is or it isn't. but if you're a parent or someone concerned about your health or that of your kids - and you're even a little suspicious or concerned - it is just exasperating (which is what my mini-rant was trying to convey). even if this stuff doesn't do what we think it might - the fact that we can't know for sure yet, can drive you crazy. so of course the safe thing to do is to learn what you can and take the safest route.
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Old 09-30-2007, 09:43 PM   #68
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you can believe or not that the rising number of autistic, asthmatic and/or overweight kids have something to do with how we plant/process food. and that polluting the water, land, plants, fishes etc. does or doesn't have an affect on cancer rates or degradation of the environment.

but at some point there will be a convergance - that yes it is or it isn't. but if you're a parent or someone concerned about your health or that of your kids - and you're even a little suspicious or concerned -
I guess my issue is that so much of this ignores the progress that has been made. We don't put lead in our fuel anymore, or in our paint (and China is getting heat for doing it), we don't X-Ray kids feet to fit them with shoes, we learned to cure stomach ulcers with antibiotics, we have seat belts and air bags in cars, etc, etc, etc.

Of course I am concerned about the health of myself and my family (and others for that matter). But I don't get all excited and up in arms about some additive that has known benefits, and no known health risk when there are known dangers that need to be addressed.

At this point I am concerned that the 'scare mongers' are doing far more harm than good. How many innovative products or medicines have not been brought to market because the entrepreneur has feared the backlash of people who might be afraid of it (w/o data), and force it off the market? I've heard of this with some safety devices. Even though they may save lives, the business is afraid of the one lawsuit if the device failed one time out of a thousand. It is a real concern.

Let's try this test of your faith: pick a year that you think was a safer time to eat, drink, and live in than 2007. If you had a time machine, which year would you pick? And no romanticizing the past - think about the reality of life w/o vaccines, antibiotics, surgery, chlorinated water supplies, the FDA (no matter how imperfect these are). Would you send your kids there?

If it was me, I would not budge. These ARE the good old days!

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Old 09-30-2007, 09:52 PM   #69
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I guess my issue is that so much of this ignores the progress that has been made. We don't put lead in our fuel anymore, or in our paint (and China is getting heat for doing it), we don't X-Ray kids feet to fit them with shoes, we learned to cure stomach ulcers with antibiotics, we have seat belts and air bags in cars, etc, etc, etc.
-ERD50
i agree...let's not throw the baby out w/ the...you know.

again, though, there are also many examples where we thought something was ok, then find out oops, it will kill ya... (slow or fast) or make your life much more challenging...

not sure i could find a date in the past that would win in all the categories...but at least back in the day you knew your milk came from the milk man and the cows weren't juiced beyond belief and stuffed w/ gmo corn... butter was butter, bacon was bacon!
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Old 09-30-2007, 09:54 PM   #70
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We don't put lead in our fuel anymore, or in our paint
I guess that one of the points being made is that we did put those things in there at one time because they had a benefit that was perceivable and a bunch of problems that weren't.

My point was that I have a problem with paying extra for a product with certain characteristics - - milk from a cow that ate grass and wasnt shot up with anything - - and getting something plausibly inferior to what I'd get by paying less - - old dry milk from another country that fed who knows what to the cow and shot it up with who knows what, but because there arent any controls, could stamp "organic" on it and ship it to the US vs milk from a cow down the street that had no unusual treatment.

But then again, I remember a lot of guys who rambled on for years about how good leaded gas really was for their car, and a bunch of folks who even changed their fill tubes to let them continue putting leaded gas in their catalytic converter equipped cars...
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Old 09-30-2007, 09:57 PM   #71
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you can believe or not that the rising number of ... overweight kids have something to do with how we plant/process food.
I wanted to comment on the overweight kids (and adults, too).

Isn't it ironic that humans spent millions of years evolving and developing technology to collect enough food to keep from starving, and now that half the world has finally met that challenge the result is that we are dying from it!

We are overweight because there are too many calories easily available to us. And we have the DNA that tells us to eat, fatten up for the hard times ahead that just never come for most of us.

So again, let's test your faith. Which do you prefer:

A) The choice between cheap, available but maybe nutrient-poor calories; the choice of available, not-so-cheap, not-so-convenient but more nutrient rich foods, and the choice to say 'NO' to over-eating either of them,

or....

B) Not enough food to go around, period.

Choice B is all that is available to half the world, and most of the world for all of time except the last hundred years.

And we are complaining? I don't get it.

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Old 09-30-2007, 10:02 PM   #72
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I do know that the CSA we're part of is organic. And, as far as I know, this means organic in a very holistic way. They go through a lot of trouble in planting complimentary crops. For example, they plant pussy willows to attract aphids that secrete a sweet dew that attracts a certain wasp that then feeds on the catepillars. I believe the willows also give the bees a strong start before the strawberries are in bloom. They plant willow trees to provide branches for the birds that then feed on other pests.

For me, it's all about personal choice. If I choose to spend more because I want to regulate what is in my diet, then I have the freedom to do so. Conversely, if someone chooses to buy uniform fruit and dyed food that looks pretty, then that is their choice. I choose to not eat red meat and understand that there are potential health risks in doing that. Meanwhile, my neighbor chooses to eat a 48 oz prime rib and they should understand the potential health risks in doing that as well.

I feel that the choices that I make are more sustainable long-term, but with no kids and no plans for kids, I really don't care what happens beyond my life time. If my neighbor next door chooses to live without regard to the future, then that's their choice as well.
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Old 09-30-2007, 10:13 PM   #73
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i agree...let's not throw the baby out w/ the...you know.

again, though, there are also many examples where we thought something was ok, then find out oops, it will kill ya... (slow or fast) or make your life much more challenging...

not sure i could find a date in the past that would win in all the categories...but at least back in the day you knew your milk came from the milk man and the cows weren't juiced beyond belief and stuffed w/ gmo corn... butter was butter, bacon was bacon!
Agreed. And when we find out that something that we had every reason to believe was good for us is actually bad, well it is time to do something. We do need to be prudent, not just accept everything w/o question, but not do the baby/bathwater thing either.

Even leaded fuel served a purpose, it had a very big role in our winning WW2, some say we could not have won w/o it. I think these days, we are more sophisticated, and anticipate/avoid problems, or fix them sooner than in the past. I do want to see that based on science, not emotion.

CFB: The guys rigging their fuel pipes were more concerned about the health of their exhaust valves than the health of our/their children.

GMO corn!!!! What's wrong with GMO corn? I thought you didn't like artificial pesticides? The whole idea behind GMO corn is that it requires less pesticides, and the ones you can use on it are more environmentally friendly! Man has been hybridizing and selectively breeding plants and animals for thousands of years, GMO is just the latest technology to do this. Ever eat grass seed? That's about all corn was before man got involved. Back to the baby/bathwater thing....

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Old 09-30-2007, 10:22 PM   #74
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But then again, I remember a lot of guys who rambled on for years about how good leaded gas really was for their car, and a bunch of folks who even changed their fill tubes to let them continue putting leaded gas in their catalytic converter equipped cars...
And disconnecting the PCV(?); very common in the SE USA in the '70s.
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Old 09-30-2007, 10:25 PM   #75
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. so of course the safe thing to do is to learn what you can and take the safest route.
Absolutely. And you are right: Learning what is likely to be best is tough, and it never stops. It is also frustrating that "going back" isn't always the safest route either. Whether we're talking "regular" vs "organic" food or cars vs. horses and buggies, the seemingly "safe" thing to do (do what we did before, or what Grandpap did) can often be more perilous than the "newfangled" course. E.g. I read a few years ago that people who eat organic vegetables are 8 times as likely to get food poisoning than those who eat the regular stuff (we're not talking about a queezy stomach--but livers which never function properly again). So, there can be an elevated risk even with the "let's be safe" course of action.

It would be a real eye opener if foods were labeled with the chemicals they are really made of. The label on an "organic" peach (or celery stick, etc) would look like a Monsanto catalogue. Plants have been at war with bugs, viruses, bacteria, and fungi for millions of years, and they contain hundreds of chemicals to defend themselves. Very few of THESE chemicals have been tested for safety on humans, but we know some are nasty for us. And we eat them all when we take a bite. What are you gonna do--ya gottta eat!
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:25 AM   #76
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T-Al, the book Omnivore's Dilemma calls it (I think) industrial organic, and uses Horizon and Aurora as (bad) examples. That book is one of the big reasons why I buy Organic Valley or fresh local milk at the farmers market. I think Aurora recently lost their certification due to mistreatment of the dairy cows, IIRC. They are a big supplier to Costco.

I like Mega-Organic--go with it!
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:13 PM   #77
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i second CFB's post on the frustration of things not being what you would think they are. That to me is the most frustrating thing - why do we need to do so much research to feel like you are making informed choices? It's too mucked up.

BTW, irrigation w/ plain old water long term is bad for the soil (causes salination, run off of pesticides/fertilizers etc) so EVERYTHING has consequences... we should keep an eye out for the long term as well as short and not just bow down to the gods of science and hope/pray it will fix whatever we screwed up last time, trying to fix something else!

ERD, it's not just the bounty of the modern industrial food supply, it's all the crap industry has put into it to make it shinier, pinker (cockroach skeletons!ick), saltier, bulkier etc. at first it was just about modern convenience (think i love lucy times) and now it's about consequences. luckily some food companies are reacting to some of the first whispers of questions...but i think we have just reached the tip of the iceberg on americans waking up to distrusting what's in the frozen boxes at the supermarket. it is very akin to the smoking movement about 30 years ago.

anyhow, thanks Sarah for the tip on organic valley - names always help and are more straightforward than reading 300 labels every shopping trip.
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Old 10-01-2007, 04:44 PM   #78
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i second CFB's post on the frustration of things not being what you would think they are.
100% agree. Labeling should be as clear and accurate as possible. As a consumer, I want to know if that product is fresh, frozen, reconstituted, colored, etc. Food and non-food products.

Quote:
and not just bow down to the gods of science and hope/pray it will fix whatever we screwed up last time, trying to fix something else!
Disagree totally. What I like about science is that it does not involve hope/praying - they aren't gods. When science makes a mistake, they acknowledge it, change their ways and move on. That's why we don't have lead in gasoline anymore, etc, etc, etc. Sure, it's not perfect, profit motives and egos can interfere, but it eventually comes to light. Whatever the faults, I can't think of a better system. 'gods' never admit a mistake because they don't make mistakes - by definition.


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ERD, it's not just the bounty of the modern industrial food supply, it's all the crap industry has put into it to make it shinier, pinker (cockroach skeletons!ick), saltier, bulkier etc.
Don't buy it then. I think you can say they are just meeting customer demand. I guess that is what it is, because I sure don't like the saltiness, and most artificial flavors that are added to some foods. But someone must. Again, it's not a scare thing for me, just a preference. I'd rather get fresh broccoli, cook it myself and add a little something (butter, lemon, pepper, fresh-grated cheese?) if I want. I prefer that to some mass produced version of frozen, bread-crumbed, over-salted, MSG-d, hydrogenated oil fake cheese food product doused version of it.

But, to be honest, I don't really have a problem finding food that is acceptable to me. We just don't buy a lot of highly processed foods. Heck, they even took the trans-fat out of peanut butter, but I was using the 'natural' brands anyhow - I just prefer the taste. Actually, the trans-fat is PB is so low, they say it really is not significant - it just takes a tiny amount to keep the oil from separating.

I just can't agree with the fear mongering that every added ingredient and/or process must be a hidden danger that demands immediate attention. Being prudent is good, irrational fears (BGH, GMO) may do more harm than good.

And one must maintain perspective. I don't know a single person killed, incapacitated or even requiring medical treatment due to pesticides or hormones in food. Ever. And that's millions of people eating 3x or more a day! Yet we probably all know someone that fit those categories from a car accident. We should spend more time on drivers education and law enforcement on our roads over worrying about whether a cow received a synthetic version of a natural hormone. In my opinion

BTW, here's some interesting info on the use of synthetic hormones in HUMANS:

Levothyroxine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Synthroid is the most prescribed brand of T4 in United States. Synthroid was marketed in 1955,[1] but was not FDA approved at that time as it was considered "generally regarded safe". In the 1990s, in response to debate as to whether Synthroid was more effective than other levothyroxine preparations, (which ended up concluding that there was little difference between Synthroid and generic brands[2] all levothyroxine preparations were required to undergo the formal FDA approval process. Synthroid was approved by the FDA on 2002-07-24.[3]
So, people are not harmed by synthetic hormones, but you are worried about ones given to milk cows (to supplement hormones already naturally present)? Just seems over the top to me. Bigger fish out there, I say.

-ERD50
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Old 10-01-2007, 07:20 PM   #79
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ah ERD, i think you suffer from the, "everyone must be as smart as me and common sense endowed as me disease"

believe me - they're not!

even a good friend of mine who is a nurse, has kids who are both under weight and over weight. i think there has been a general trust in the food industry that if it's on the shelves it's edible...until now.

it might not kill you at first bite, but in 20 years!

on the other hand, i don't do those things either, but am frustrated that it is like moving a mountain to get others to do so and little kids are suffering, and our health care system (all of us) will pay in the end.
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Old 10-01-2007, 09:56 PM   #80
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common sense endowed ...

believe me - they're not!
OK, probably true. Just like so many (most?) people do not have common sense when it comes to finances - spend more than they make, rack up CC debt, throw money at get rich quick schemes....

But, what to do about it? You can't just ban decadent desserts for example. I'm entitled to have an occasional decadent dessert if I can 'afford' it (financially and caloric-ly). But in excess, it's not healthy.

Same as anything, I think we need education. People need to try to learn to make reasonable food choices. I don't think you can legislate it.

You can legislate against dangerous foods where the risk/reward ratio is poor, salmonella, e-coli, etc. Based on science, not emotion. If something is just personal preference, well then I guess you need to ask the producers, and ask them to label the product - create consumer demand for it.

Quote:
i think there has been a general trust in the food industry that if it's on the shelves it's edible...until now.
Wow, there is some revisionist history in that statement!

The Jungle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Sinclair's account of workers falling into meat processing tanks and being ground, along with animal parts, into "Durham's Pure Leaf Lard", gripped public attention.
hey - the label said 'PURE' Actually, that part might be fiction (Sinclair said it was hearsay, never verified), but I'm certain some pretty unsavory things went on.

Quote:
on the other hand, i don't do those things either, but am frustrated that it is like moving a mountain to get others to do so and little kids are suffering, and our health care system (all of us) will pay in the end.
Me too (not necessarily about the same exact issues - but healthy eating in general). Education is all I can think of - maybe coupled with financial motivation? Like charging a 'fat tax'? That would be a tough one, for many reasons.

-ERD50
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