Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-07-2014, 10:55 PM   #41
Moderator
rodi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: San Diego
Posts: 8,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver View Post

Dementia plays a huge role in older adult decision-making, even when it has not been diagnosed because they are able to function well. From what you have said about both your parents wishes (father asking you to pay, mother not wanting daughter to live in their house), I'll bet they both have some level of dementia leading to unrealistic expectations which is normal at that age.
I agree with this. Little stuff started to slip - but my MIL was very good at covering it up... Partially by making sure that no one looked at things too close. That may be the issue why your mom doesn't want your sister in the house... Harder to fake the little memory slips that are early signs of dementia if someone is close enough to observe.

Nords has written about how well his dad was at covering up the early signs of dementia, as well. I think it's basic human instinct to deny and cover up when our mind starts to go.
__________________

__________________
Retired June 2014. No longer an enginerd - now I'm just a nerd.
micro pensions 7%, rental income 18%
rodi is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-07-2014, 10:59 PM   #42
Full time employment: Posting here.
urn2bfree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 711
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodi View Post
I agree with this. Little stuff started to slip - but my MIL was very good at covering it up... Partially by making sure that no one looked at things too close. That may be the issue why your mom doesn't want your sister in the house... Harder to fake the little memory slips that are early signs of dementia if someone is close enough to observe.

Nords has written about how well his dad was at covering up the early signs of dementia, as well. I think it's basic human instinct to deny and cover up when our mind starts to go.
+1


Sent from my iPad using Early Retirement Forum
__________________

__________________
urn2bfree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 11:09 PM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,288
I will add another thing that could be in the parents thinking....

They lived through the depression... so did my mom (who is older than OPs parents).... this changed the thinking of a lot of people on money...

Mom still is very cheap and even though she has plenty of money to pay for things just will not do it at times... she will nickel and dime things that are really important, even food...

So, if your parents are this way, then I can see where not spending money and wanting you to do so comes from....
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 11:33 PM   #44
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
This is what I would do if I am in your shoes. I'd do what DD wishes. This could be his last wish anyway. If that makes him feel better, so be it. It's not about money but what dad thinks is right thing to do. Even if I don't believe it is the right thing, I will do it with smile on my face. After all, I've got money to spare and my sister may not. What I gain by doing this is priceless.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 06:51 AM   #45
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodi View Post
I agree with this. Little stuff started to slip - but my MIL was very good at covering it up... Partially by making sure that no one looked at things too close. That may be the issue why your mom doesn't want your sister in the house... Harder to fake the little memory slips that are early signs of dementia if someone is close enough to observe.

Nords has written about how well his dad was at covering up the early signs of dementia, as well. I think it's basic human instinct to deny and cover up when our mind starts to go.
+1

When my MIL fell and broke her hip, we thought FIL was in good shape. Within a few months it became obvious he wasn't. His electricity was almost cut off after he wasn't paying any bills for several month. He couldn't operate his microwave or pay for gas at the pump with his credit card. It was obvious that MIL had been covering for him for probably a couple of years. When DW asked her, she quickly said he wasn't able to function yet she didn't say anything to us before DW anguished about it.

Even after we had a neurologist diagnose Alzheimers', we had trouble with other people because FIL was so good at hiding it. We had some of his old friends get angry at DW for moving him out of his home. For ~5 minutes he could schmooze anyone. However, after the first 5 minutes he'd reintroduce himself like the person had just showed up and restart the schmooze tape.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 09:36 AM   #46
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Colorado Mountains
Posts: 2,145
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnplunder View Post
This is what I would do if I am in your shoes. I'd do what DD wishes. This could be his last wish anyway. If that makes him feel better, so be it. It's not about money but what dad thinks is right thing to do. Even if I don't believe it is the right thing, I will do it with smile on my face. After all, I've got money to spare and my sister may not. What I gain by doing this is priceless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2B View Post
+1

When my MIL fell and broke her hip, we thought FIL was in good shape. Within a few months it became obvious he wasn't. His electricity was almost cut off after he wasn't paying any bills for several month. He couldn't operate his microwave or pay for gas at the pump with his credit card. It was obvious that MIL had been covering for him for probably a couple of years. When DW asked her, she quickly said he wasn't able to function yet she didn't say anything to us before DW anguished about it.

Even after we had a neurologist diagnose Alzheimers', we had trouble with other people because FIL was so good at hiding it. We had some of his old friends get angry at DW for moving him out of his home. For ~5 minutes he could schmooze anyone. However, after the first 5 minutes he'd reintroduce himself like the person had just showed up and restart the schmooze tape.
Unfortunately, I think robnplunde's approach can easily hide those deeper issues described by 2B. There is medicine that can help with dementia, but if you allow it to be covered up, there will be no help. An evaluation of both parents seems to be in order as suggested by many above. A good friend has dementia at 66. He is lucky that his DW got him to discuss it with his doctor and is now on medicine which seems to help. Good luck.
__________________
Hermit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 10:00 AM   #47
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Mulligan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 7,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud View Post
I will add another thing that could be in the parents thinking....

They lived through the depression... so did my mom (who is older than OPs parents).... this changed the thinking of a lot of people on money...

Mom still is very cheap and even though she has plenty of money to pay for things just will not do it at times... she will nickel and dime things that are really important, even food...

So, if your parents are this way, then I can see where not spending money and wanting you to do so comes from....

That was my only way to reconcile the situation. When one is older and vulnerable money is the last line of defense for protection. Instead of drawing down their resources have children do so then get reimbursed with inheritance. While I hope I wouldn't come to that conclusion when I am that age, it may be hard to let go of that security.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Mulligan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 10:16 AM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
That was my only way to reconcile the situation. When one is older and vulnerable money is the last line of defense for protection. Instead of drawing down their resources have children do so then get reimbursed with inheritance. While I hope I wouldn't come to that conclusion when I am that age, it may be hard to let go of that security.
If the parents do end up living a long time with LTC needs and end up on Medicaid, it is probably better to spend down the parents assets, and not the adult kids, to Medicaid qualification levels. Otherwise, there may not be an inheritance passed on to the kids. The state could try to claim it for recovery of costs.

It might be a good time to have a chat with an elder law attorney.
__________________
daylatedollarshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 10:16 AM   #49
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,019
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnplunder View Post
This is what I would do if I am in your shoes. I'd do what DD wishes. This could be his last wish anyway. If that makes him feel better, so be it. It's not about money but what dad thinks is right thing to do. Even if I don't believe it is the right thing, I will do it with smile on my face. After all, I've got money to spare and my sister may not. What I gain by doing this is priceless.
I disagree. Very old people, even without dementia, frequently regress and become like children (toddlers) again: demanding, self centred and irrational. Just as a parent should not give in to a child's temper tantrums, an adult child should not enable the same behaviour in an elderly parent. The difficulty for the adult child lies in acknowledging the pattern of behaviour, setting fair boundaries, and not feeling guilty about it.
__________________
Meadbh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:24 AM   #50
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemg View Post
Sorry you are going through this . Frankly it is probably time your parents look into an independent living facility that is attached to an assisted living community . My Mom fought this tooth & nail but now that she is in one she loves it . Your Sister means well but this scenario usually ends up badly .
I am not sure how I'd get our parents on this path, especially since sister has volunteered to move and care for them. However I agree, neither parents nor sister has thought thru all the possible outcomes. All three of them are assuming parents will pass suddenly without hospitalization, assisted living, nursing home care. Might be, but there could just as easily be things sister can't handle, and sooner rather than later. And no way to know how much longer they will live, if sister uproots herself and both parents pass away within a year or sooner, now sister has given up her career and moved to a city she does not want to live/retire to.

Parents never were very social. Dad's social life revolved around his golf buddies, but they've all passed away, and he can't/doesn't play anymore. Mom goes to church every Sunday, very important to her, but she's happy to confine her social life to church once a week. IOW, not sure how I'd even get them to try communal setting, they're determined to stay at home until they pass no matter what it takes.
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:27 AM   #51
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,978
Just thanking you all again. I felt better when I went to sleep last night, and I am carefully re-reading it all this AM. Sister is uneasy now, she wants to help but she realizes it could turn out badly. She does want us to get on the same page. Her offer to move/help parents is primary and sincere, but she also confessed that she'd like to retire, but can't afford to yet, and if parents pay she can 'retire' 4 years early. Yes, I realize this may raise some red flags to this audience...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:31 AM   #52
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
IOW, not sure how I'd even get them to try communal setting, they're determined to stay at home until they pass no matter what it takes.
It will take the "train wreck" I brought up earlier and even then it won't be pretty.

Your DS needs to understand all of these details. She won't be "retiring." She will be embarking on an indefinite career as a home heath care worker with no respite or relief. They are unlikely to pass away quietly in their sleep. One or both will likely develop severe dimentia, need diapers and/or develop severe physical limitations in the "life skills."

The fact that your parents can't get up when they fall tells me that they are ready for assisted living. Normal people don't fall very often; and when they do, they get up by themselves.

When their licenses can't be renewed, they will become prisoners in their own home but they will still fight every effort to move them. Your situation will not end well.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:36 AM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,978
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIREd View Post
It sounds like your parents have enough money to pay for an unrelated caretaker. So I see no reason for you to have to chip in just because they select your sister as their caretaker. They should pay her, which will reduce their estate and the amount you inherit. It seems to be an acceptable outcome for you.
It is an acceptable outcome indeed. However sister is relying in part on inheritance, and has told me same. So while she agrees I should not be asked to pay, a secondary motivation for her to move and help care for parents would be to reduce their out-of-pocket costs to preserve their $ estate (her inheritance).
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:48 AM   #54
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
It is an acceptable outcome indeed. However sister is relying in part on inheritance, and has told me same. So while she agrees I should not be asked to pay, a secondary motivation for her to move and help care for parents would be to reduce their out-of-pocket costs to preserve their $ estate (her inheritance).
Her objection should be easily overcome. First, if you hire an independent caretaker, the inheritance is reduced anyways. By taking the job, she gets to "retire" 4 years earlier and ends up with a larger payout (half the final estate plus the salary earned as a caretaker). It seems to work in her favor - if she does not mind doing the job of caring for your parents.
__________________
FIREd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 11:49 AM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
It is an acceptable outcome indeed. However sister is relying in part on inheritance, and has told me same. So while she agrees I should not be asked to pay, a secondary motivation for her to move and help care for parents would be to reduce their out-of-pocket costs to preserve their $ estate (her inheritance).
That may not work out if one or both end up in a nursing home at $80K a year per person and have to spend down to Medicaid.
__________________
daylatedollarshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 12:18 PM   #56
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
braumeister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Northern Kentucky
Posts: 8,620
And that's a key consideration: people living much longer than expected.

Taking care of my mother until her death at 96 was hard enough, but one of my best friends did the same until his mother died at 103. Nobody ever expected either situation, but it can happen.
__________________
braumeister is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 12:19 PM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Midpack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,978
Sister just shared some $ amounts that will add some perspective to the financial situation (and will undoubtedly surprise some). Parents have Medicare, TriCare and VA healthcare coverage. Combined pensions/SS total $130K/yr. No debts and their annual expenses are $24K/yr, they have been saving the rest. [I thought I was LBYM!!!] [update] In 2011 they had $960K in CD's, $300K house and $120K collectibles, jewelry, other property, no telling what the accumulated total is today. They haven't had any investments more risky than CD's for about 10 years, so no losses possible.

It'll be a miracle if we're that we'll set at their age, highly unlikely I'd expect...
__________________
No one agrees with other people's opinions; they merely agree with their own opinions -- expressed by somebody else. Sydney Tremayne
Retired Jun 2011 at age 57

Target AA: 60% equity funds / 35% bond funds / 5% cash
Target WR: Approx 2.5% Approx 20% SI (secure income, SS only)
Midpack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 12:34 PM   #58
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
2B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Houston
Posts: 4,330
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midpack View Post
Sister just shared some $ amounts that will add some perspective to the financial situation (and will undoubtedly surprise some). Parents have Medicare, TriCare and VA healthcare coverage. Combined pensions/SS total $130K/yr. No debts and their annual expenses are $24K/yr, they have been saving the rest. [I thought I was LBYM!!!] In 2005 they had $750K in CD's, $300K house and $120K collectibles, jewelry, other property, no telling what the accumulated total is today. They haven't had any investments more risky than CD's for about 10 years, so no losses possible.

It'll be a miracle if we're that we'll set at their age, highly unlikely I'd expect...
Theoretically, they should be investing for their heirs. They could just about fund nursing care for both of them indefinitely out of cash flow. All CDs is so very wrong.
__________________
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane -- Marcus Aurelius
2B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 01:00 PM   #59
Moderator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Rocky Inlets
Posts: 24,487
Shouldn't they be investing to fund their short and long term care needs? Heirs and inheritances are secondary IMHO.

One additional thought about assisted living and nursing homes. I've discussed this at length with health care professionals including geriatric psychiatrists and neurologists, their view is many people might be better off at home with some home care assistance rather than in a facility. As long as they can carry out the ADLs, the default options should be home unless the subjects themselves express a different preference or there is a clear medical need.
__________________
MichaelB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 01:16 PM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2B View Post
All CDs is so very wrong.
Yet, they seem to be doing very well financially with the CD route.
__________________

__________________
daylatedollarshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Caregiver stress imoldernu Health and Early Retirement 8 05-22-2014 04:44 PM
Caregiver helpful hints LongPrime Health and Early Retirement 1 05-22-2014 02:43 PM
Family member theft chinaco Other topics 11 09-14-2010 04:42 PM
Newest Member of Calgary_Girl's Family! Calgary_Girl Other topics 17 12-06-2009 03:57 PM
Fair warning for parents, or parents to be... cute fuzzy bunny Other topics 4 02-20-2006 08:46 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:20 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.