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Old 12-08-2014, 01:28 PM   #61
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Yet, they seem to be doing very well financially with the CD route.
They are only doing well because they don't need any of the money now or likely to in the future. They are adding close to $100,000 per year to their assets. They aren't investing or saving for themselves. Their return on the assets are certainly not doing too well in this interest rate environment. A more balanced portfolio seems to be a better choice.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:38 PM   #62
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They are only doing well because they don't need any of the money now or likely to in the future. They are adding close to $100,000 per year to their assets. They aren't investing or saving for themselves. Their return on the assets are certainly not doing too well in this interest rate environment. A more balanced portfolio seems to be a better choice.
Maybe. But if you were 92, very conservative by nature, witnessed the 2008 GFC/ meltdown (from the sidelines), and you wanted to leave your daughter a substantial $ inheritance - no equity holdings might be a permissible choice. "Once you've won the game, why keep playing?"
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:43 PM   #63
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They are only doing well because they don't need any of the money now or likely to in the future. They are adding close to $100,000 per year to their assets. They aren't investing or saving for themselves. Their return on the assets are certainly not doing too well in this interest rate environment. A more balanced portfolio seems to be a better choice.
Coming of age during the depression had a major impact on those people. My dad was of the same mind and in the same situation although the numbers were quite a bit smaller. He and my mom died within one year of each other and their investments were all in CDs. I don't think at the age of 90+ is a good time to try to change someone's investing habits. Especially someone who wants his son to pay for living assistance expenses. Even bringing the subject up could close communication doors.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:46 PM   #64
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They are only doing well because they don't need any of the money now or likely to in the future. They are adding close to $100,000 per year to their assets. They aren't investing or saving for themselves. Their return on the assets are certainly not doing too well in this interest rate environment. A more balanced portfolio seems to be a better choice.
In my VERY humble position, I wouldn't be worried about their portfolio at this point in time. I would want to honor their desire to die with dignity, in their own home, controlling what they still can, and knowing that at the very least, their children get that.

It is not about the money at this point, regardless of what the DF says. It is about being able to die in a way that is preceived to be acceptable to them as a couple. That's all.

We will all die. We will also all be where they are one day.
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Old 12-08-2014, 01:50 PM   #65
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Maybe. But if you were 92, very conservative by nature, witnessed the 2008 GFC/ meltdown (from the sidelines), and you wanted to leave your daughter a substantial $ inheritance - no equity holdings might be a permissible choice. "Once you've won the game, why keep playing?"
My comment wasn't really relevant to your initial post. It was more of a reflection. It isn't something that should be brought up with them.

When I took over my in-laws assets, I treated DWs share of the eventual inheritance like it was already ours and invested accordingly. I took over after both were determined to be incompetent to manage their own affairs. DW had the POAs. We had a copy of the will and knew what all the bills were likely to be during their lifetimes.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:01 PM   #66
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In my VERY humble position, I wouldn't be worried about their portfolio at this point in time. I would want to honor their desire to die with dignity, in their own home, controlling what they still can, and knowing that at the very least, their children get that.

It is not about the money at this point, regardless of what the DF says. It is about being able to die in a way that is preceived to be acceptable to them as a couple. That's all.

We will all die. We will also all be where they are one day.
My point exactly in my 1st response to the OP. There's more than financial transaction here, especially, if parent-children relationship were a good one (I don't know the Op's relationship with his parents).

And if you want to talk financials, both Midpack and sister have so much $$$ to gain when their parents pass on. Seems like what the parents are asking appear to be fair trade given the would be inheritance amount. I am just saying.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:36 PM   #67
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Maybe. But if you were 92, very conservative by nature, witnessed the 2008 GFC/ meltdown (from the sidelines), and you wanted to leave your daughter a substantial $ inheritance - no equity holdings might be a permissible choice. "Once you've won the game, why keep playing?"
+1. If expenses are less than SS and pensions, why keep playing the game with the portfolio? That is what we plan to do. The kids won't be poor either way between their careers (college and probably grad school paid 100% by us in STEM fields), and inheriting the current house and portfolio as long as we invest for at least for a zero real return.
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Old 12-08-2014, 02:38 PM   #68
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In my VERY humble position, I wouldn't be worried about their portfolio at this point in time. I would want to honor their desire to die with dignity, in their own home, controlling what they still can, and knowing that at the very least, their children get that.

It is not about the money at this point, regardless of what the DF says. It is about being able to die in a way that is preceived to be acceptable to them as a couple. That's all.

We will all die. We will also all be where they are one day.
I agree the investment strategy isn't an issue to deal with now or probably in their remaining lifetime (unless POA is executed).

I have seen multiple elderly people (including my FIL/MIL) refuse to consider anything other than staying in their home and pretending to live like they always have. This is true well past the time when any rational person says they can't manage to do this without continuous care. My in-laws were such PITAs that I have told my children that this is to be expected when I get old. When I need to be somewhere else, don't put yourself through all sorts of anguish. Do what has to be done. Do what's best for me and not what I say I want.

We all what to live life on our own terms. Frequently, we can't.

I'm glad you are looking forward to possibly a decade of dealing with your elderly parents while you change their diapers, chase after them when they wander down the street disoriented, throw their food, have to be spoon fed every meal. I'm not and now prefer (with still a reasonable control of my faculties) that my children not do that even if I object at the time.
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:23 PM   #69
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I'm glad you are looking forward to possibly a decade of dealing with your elderly parents while you change their diapers, chase after them when they wander down the street disoriented, throw their food, have to be spoon fed every meal. I'm not and now prefer (with still a reasonable control of my faculties) that my children not do that even if I object at the time.
I already lived that decade when I took my father (who had severe dementia) into my home for the final 5 years of his life. It was not at all what you describe, but it was hard. I'm glad I was able to do what I could for him, and would do it again.
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Old 12-08-2014, 06:54 PM   #70
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I already lived that decade when I took my father (who had severe dementia) into my home for the final 5 years of his life. It was not at all what you describe, but it was hard. I'm glad I was able to do what I could for him, and would do it again.


I took care of my dying brother every other weekend for almost a year. I don't think I can do it again. It took a huge toll on me, mentally & physically, and took many months to recover from the ordeal.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:17 PM   #71
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They are only doing well because they don't need any of the money now or likely to in the future. They are adding close to $100,000 per year to their assets. They aren't investing or saving for themselves. Their return on the assets are certainly not doing too well in this interest rate environment. A more balanced portfolio seems to be a better choice.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. They are saving money because of low expenses. If they are happy saving that way and don't want to risk losing money in the stock market, why not? Why would a more balanced portfolio be a better choice in their particular situation? Losing half their money might make them feel worse than doubling it might make them happier, per the law of diminishing marginal utility. If they lost $300K in the stock market, to them that would be losing 12 years of living expenses in one year, instead of saving 4 years of living expenses every year with the status quo.
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Old 12-08-2014, 10:55 PM   #72
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Your parents have over 1MM plus a big pension.
They need in home assistance, they need to hire someone to come in daily to help out, attend to things, etc.
Possibly they do need night time supervision, but start with the day only as a much easier step.

This will cost about $30K to 60K per year, but their pension can easily cover it.
Your DS does not have to quit her job (DS is not prepared to be a care-giver) and its quite likely you both will still be splitting a 1 MM inheritance.

Make sure both of you get on as co-signer to parents accounts, and review accounts (online?) every couple of months.

You don't want a care-giver to steal it all, and you will probably go through 1 or 2 care-givers per year as its a tough job. (which is why DS cannot do it).
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:54 AM   #73
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Your parents have over 1MM plus a big pension.
They need in home assistance, they need to hire someone to come in daily to help out, attend to things, etc.
Possibly they do need night time supervision, but start with the day only as a much easier step.

This will cost about $30K to 60K per year, but their pension can easily cover it.
Your DS does not have to quit her job (DS is not prepared to be a care-giver) and its quite likely you both will still be splitting a 1 MM inheritance.

Make sure both of you get on as co-signer to parents accounts, and review accounts (online?) every couple of months.

You don't want a care-giver to steal it all, and you will probably go through 1 or 2 care-givers per year as its a tough job. (which is why DS cannot do it).
I realize they're 'wanting their cake and to eat it too,' but they can't stand the idea of having strangers in their house, or sister and I when we're not needed frankly (hence they want her to move nearby, but have her own apartment even though they have two spare bedrooms). They hired people to handle the pool and yard, and they have a paid handyman they've known for years who helps out as needed.

Inside the house is a different matter, it's their "nest." They have a maid once/week, but Mom has never gotten comfortable with the idea, she absolutely hates it. How we would get them to accept more help than a maid is beyond sister and I. I am afraid it's going to take a serious injury for either of them to even consider it, and I suspect they will still do everything they can to avoid "outsider" help.

Sister is willing to be their outside help, but she realizes as the months/years pass there may well be things she can't do for them.

They simply won't talk about independent living/assisted living/nursing care. They'd literally get up and walk away if we tried to force that conversation.

I know the advice we've gotten here is correct, but not how to get from point A to point B without a catastrophe in the meantime. They're determined to die peacefully in their sleep, without anyone's help, except sister.

Thanks again. Sister and I have been comparing notes for years, and we've exchanged thoughts extensively in the past two days. And we've both gently confronted Dad last night. We'll see where it leads.
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Old 12-09-2014, 05:51 AM   #74
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It is an acceptable outcome indeed. However sister is relying in part on inheritance, and has told me same. So while she agrees I should not be asked to pay, a secondary motivation for her to move and help care for parents would be to reduce their out-of-pocket costs to preserve their $ estate (her inheritance).
I think DS is not looking at the whole picture. To me it is neutral financially. If DS quits and moves in with parents, she'll receive pay and a smaller inheritance (smaller by the amount of her pay). If she keeps working in the job she has, she'll receive pay from her employer and a smaller inheritance (by the amount paid to the home care provider). So how different it is depends on how here earnings compare to what is paid for the home care provider.

I actually chuckle now that your Dad was insisting that you ante up for some of the costs after hearing that they are banking so much of their pension/SS income. Unless perhaps he is thinking that any estate would be split 50/50 so you should "reimburse" DS for half of her 'lost" earnings from not working.

FWIW, I don't at all like the DS quitting and taking care of parents idea. Unless DS' job was in geriatrics, it is likely that she is ill equipped to do the home care job, especially if your parent's health fails more. My DS is an LNA and worked in a nursing home and it is physically demanding moving the dead weight of patients and in the nursing home they can enlist other caregivers to help when needed and have equipment to help make the job easier. This could be very challenging to your DS at her age if they decline more. They need to think not of just what is needed today and tomorrow, but what will be needed in 1, 2 or 3 years (God willing). Perhaps you can spin it to your Mom and Dad that while it is an interesting idea, that is isn't fair to DS to have her do that even if she is willing and eager to.

Perhaps a better idea is to see if DD and DM will accept outside help "temporarily" and be very careful in selecting someone good, monitor the situation and cross your fingers that it works out. If it works out then that is a great outcome. If it does not, the you all can always reconsider the DS quitting idea. But if DS quits and moves and it doesn't work out, then there is probably no returning.

+1 with ideas that you should have access to their financial accounts so you can monitor their finances. Also, if not already done or I missed it, you and DS should be beneficiaries on all financial accounts.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:14 AM   #75
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They simply won't talk about independent living/assisted living/nursing care. They'd literally get up and walk away if we tried to force that conversation.
I perfectly understand this; I went through exactly the same thing with my mother. It is definitely the biggest hurdle.

What worked for us is that my mom knew several people in the same age group who had moved to retirement communities, some with assisted living options.
I took her to visit a couple of them, and I could see her beginning to soften her attitude a bit.

Then I made my own list of what I considered nice places, and asked her to visit them with me so she could get an idea what was available "if the time ever came that she needed it."

These places are very good at giving prospective customers a tour, and the process worked. There was quite a bit of reluctance at first, but after less than a week she was hooked and it was "Why didn't I do this years ago?"

Others have posted similar stories here, so I know mine is hardly unique.

Just another idea for you. Good luck.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:29 AM   #76
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That's a good idea. If they have some friends/acquaintances in assisted living nearby, then they should arrange to visit and get their experience. Everyone I have ever talked to who lives in assisted living loves it. IMO there isn't much to dislike about cooking and cleaning up after it being taken care of for you so all you need to worry about is keeping your living quarters tidy. Personally, I would sign up for it in a NY minute.

While you said they are not very social, they don't have to be social in assisted living, they can socialize as little or as much as they desire on any particular day. They can certainly recluse to their apartment quarters if they wish to like they recluse to their house now.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:30 AM   #77
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They simply won't talk about independent living/assisted living/nursing care. They'd literally get up and walk away if we tried to force that conversation.

I know the advice we've gotten here is correct, but not how to get from point A to point B without a catastrophe in the meantime. They're determined to die peacefully in their sleep, without anyone's help, except sister.
There seems to be two paths that are taken as people age. One group realizes where they are headed and simplify their lives in independent living with an eye on assisted if needed. The other group pretends that if they don't go to an "old folks home" that they will be able to manage on their own.

My in-laws were adamant about not going to a "home" but my FIL talked about moving to the Air Force Villages in San Antonio "when the time came." He was a retire brigadier general and knew people that lived there. As their health continued to go downhill, DW tried to get them to go look and consider moving. They weren't ready, as usual. When MIL fell and broke a hip, he brought up possibly moving then. The problem was they wouldn't accept a skilled nursing patient that hadn't been there. The financial aspect was also terrible for people over 80.

It soon became apparent FIL had Alzheimers'. DW tried to care for him for almost two years. He was uncooperative and would leave without notice. It made so much sense to check him into an assisted living facility attached to the skilled nursing facility MIL was at. He could then visit with her. The week after MIL died the facility said it was time to put him in their memory care unit. They had held off doing this so FIL could be with MIL when she was passing away. All-in-all, FIL spent almost 8 years in the various care units. The last two were in skilled nursing where he was totally helpless. It was not a pretty sight.

Midpack, you and your DS need to wait for the "train wreck." It's coming. One might die quietly in their sleep but its really unlikely both will. The only thing you can do now is prepare for it when it happens. One will probably need skilled nursing. The other would probably be classified at assisted. A continuing care facility with independant, skilled, memory and nursing would maximize the time with each other.

DS could manage their care if she wants to do that. My wife did that for her parents. That in itself is pretty demanding if you want to pretend you have a life.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:33 AM   #78
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Inside the house is a different matter, it's their "nest." They have a maid once/week, but Mom has never gotten comfortable with the idea, she absolutely hates it. How we would get them to accept more help than a maid is beyond sister and I. I am afraid it's going to take a serious injury for either of them to even consider it, and I suspect they will still do everything they can to avoid "outsider" help.
This is what happened with my mother. Not an injury, but a health emergency. After collapsing in the hallway with heart failure she used her alert system to call for help and the paramedics soon had her in ICU. After this episode she finally agreed to give independent living a try. That lasted for three weeks before she stormed out and insisted on returning to her three storey home. After the next emergency we went through the same scenario, and finally she acknowledged that living independently was unrealistic. She passed away three months later.

Staying sane while trying to manage this alone from a distance was a real challenge. I know it took years off my life. Giving up my job, moving continents and becoming an in-house caregiver was never a possibility for me, nor did my mother want it. You and DS need each others' support. DS stands to lose more (her mental and physical health) if she is sucked into this vortex.
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:09 AM   #79
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My Mother was also dead set against a nursing home or assisted living so I hired a home health aide . She was not happy about this and insisted that my sister & my aunt continue with her care & not some stranger . Well she ended up really enjoying the home health aide who would drive her to Dr.'s appointments , food shop , do laundry , take her to the hairdresser & whatever else was necessary . This was working until my older Sister decided Mom should move in with her in Florida far away from her friends & family(Pa.) .My Mom sold off or gave away everything to make this move . This was a three year disaster . My Sister had no idea what she had agreed to & Mom got more demanding .Finally after a big blow up my Mom moved back to Pa. and into an independent living facility with an assisted living & nursing home attached . It has worked out great . I think in part because at that point that was the only option left and also the facility is Catholic and my Mom is very religious. I would suggest your Sister spend as much time as she can with them before she makes this commitment .
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:24 AM   #80
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I don't know if it was helpful, or even relevant, but for many years after my dad died, I used to joke with my mom about "putting her in an institution."

We had lots of playful banter about it, but I kind of thought that it was planting a seed in the back of her mind that someday she would probably need some kind of professionally structured help.
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