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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 01:29 PM   #21
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by eridanus
While I agree that it can't ALL be monitored, I'm surprised that this is your...defense of the act of monitoring American citizens.
Actually the defense is, the government is only monitoring people who have been shown to have a high probability of participating in terrorist activities and those who, through other intelligence collecting activities like interrogations, have been pointed out as having participated in terrorist activities.

This does not mean the government is only watching those who come from the Middle East. The government knows about many websites used by terrorist organizations, and maybe they monitor those sites. I'm not a computer guru, so I don't know if or how it would be possible, but that would be an example of what I'm saying. Why look for gold in the Mississippi River when it can be easily found in the Rio Grande?
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 01:36 PM   #22
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
The problem is: how would you know who they are labelling as enemy combatants and whether the information was made up out of whole cloth?
I don't work in the arresting, confining, and interrogating enemy combatants department, so I don't know. Maybe the enemy combatants are the ones that want to kill us and rape our wives and daughters before converting us to the correct religion?
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 01:37 PM   #23
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by justin
I don't work in the arresting, confining, and interrogating enemy combatants department, so I don't know. Maybe the enemy combatants are the ones that want to kill us and rape our wives and daughters before converting us to the correct religion?
Or maybe they are people who donated to the wrong political party?
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 01:46 PM   #24
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

Paranoia in this thread...no noway! 8)
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 01:50 PM   #25
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Or maybe they are people who donated to the wrong political party?
Better watch who you contribute to this election season

I'm gonna send yo name in for addition to "the list" I hear Ann Coulter and ole Rush are going to be keeping the list (the government outsourced that duty this year).

Seriously, what's to stop a team of commandos from secreting me away at any point if they really wanted to? Regardless of the legality or constitutionality of it all? Not that I would be paranoid to think it could happen... (Anybody watch 24 here? ).
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 02:50 PM   #26
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by justin
Better watch who you contribute to this election season

I'm gonna send yo name in for addition to "the list" I hear Ann Coulter and ole Rush are going to be keeping the list (the government outsourced that duty this year).

Seriously, what's to stop a team of commandos from secreting me away at any point if they really wanted to? Regardless of the legality or constitutionality of it all? Not that I would be paranoid to think it could happen... (Anybody watch 24 here? ).
Careful they could be reading these boards!
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 02:52 PM   #27
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by Mwsinron
Careful they could be reading these boards!
Whaddya mean?!? I'm on their side!
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 04:37 PM   #28
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

As long as there's no convoy of black Suburbans out rounding up posters with a warped sense of humor, I'm probably ok...
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-15-2007, 04:59 PM   #29
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by Mwsinron
Careful they could be reading these boards!
heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh

Hasn't anyone ever wondered whether Missoula was a pretty bogus cover story? 8)
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 10:07 AM   #30
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
There are definite limits on what the government can get by with in terms of invasion of privacy.
since there is virtually no oversight, who is setting these limits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
For US citizens, things could be way worse and we are nowhere near the level of "getting bound and gagged and hauled out of your house in the middle of the night for interrogation by the secret police with no legal redress". Unless you count that enemy combatant that got sent to Gitmo.
as I understand it, the reauthorization passed in September gave the government the right to do just what you describe, to American citizens. And guess who decides if you are an "enemy combatant." And guess who gets no lawyer or redress?

I think you have to realize that we are all "free" now completely at the pleasure of the government, not because of any "rights" like those we used to have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin

Overall, I'd have to say this particular concern is of limited relevance to me and doesn't really occupy much of my thoughts.
spoken like a true good German. You are the one that brought up the comparison first....
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 10:24 AM   #31
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin
Whaddya mean?!? I'm on their side!
Until the next election, perhaps.
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 11:36 AM   #32
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
Until the next election, perhaps.
That's a definite "perhaps"! I'll just have to see which candidate is the least bad.
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 11:41 AM   #33
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by bosco
spoken like a true good German. You are the one that brought up the comparison first....
Don't know why the nationality-bashing is appropriate... Why demean me just because I choose to focus my efforts on more important issues? You probably don't know how many lives I have helped, changed, or saved or what good I have done.
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 12:11 PM   #34
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by justin
That's a definite "perhaps"! I'll just have to see which candidate is the least bad.
You missed my point: there should be restraints on what the gummint can do to citizens no matter which paty is in charge.
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 12:20 PM   #35
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by brewer12345
You missed my point: there should be restraints on what the gummint can do to citizens no matter which paty is in charge.
No, I understood your point. I was simply stating that I have no problem exercising my right to vote as I choose. I would have no second thoughts supporting the candidate of my choice. I am not cowering in fear. I can stand up for myself. I have no paranoid delusions of being sent to Gitmo for voting one way or another or expressing discontent with the status quo.

Questions like "what would you do if the government secreted you away to Gitmo" don't preoccupy my time. I'm more concerned with things like "what if I happen to get a flat tire on the way home, and my car flips over, and there's a truck full of fireworks right next to where my car lands and there's a clown there making faces and doing typical clown tricks including one where he lights and smokes a dozen cigarettes and the hot ashes fall into the fireworks truck causing a catastrophic explosion at the exact same time as I get struck by lightning and my car lands on the ground crushing me thereby causing me to instantly die a horrible death from being crushed, exploded, and electrocuted simultaneously". In other words, I regard it as a low probability event.
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 12:28 PM   #36
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

Should I be in shock or awe that the people I associate online with are so important/offensive that they believe they are being "watched" for a reason?
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 12:39 PM   #37
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

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Originally Posted by Fireup2025
Should I be in shock
No, not as long as our tinfoil cranial protectors are adequately grounded...
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 01:38 PM   #38
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

When I watched the towers fall on Sept 11 2001 Iturned around and asked the others in the room "Well now we will find out how much freedom we are willing to give up for security".
In a free and unencumbered society you must accept that the bad guys will get you if they want to bad enough.
Currently the bad guys can still get us but they have to try a lot harder.

If the survelance level in the US is too high for someone perhaps they need to relocate to somewhere with more freedoms
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 02:17 PM   #39
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

I find two things kid of odd here: one is the overall lack of concern about illegal activities the US gov. has undertaken; the second is the lame defenses...

While we busy ourselves around the world giving lip-service to freedom, we don't seem to care too much about establishing a Stasi/KGB-type intelligence eschalon in the good old US of A. Complacency.

It's not about "ME being so important".. exactly the opposite. It's not about the likelihood of being "electrocuted." (We have a lot of regulations that protect people from being electrocuted BTW). It's about deciding if the US is going to be a country run according to the rule of law.. or not... whether we've decided that's old hat, boooorrring, tiresome.. or whatever.

Neither am I "preoccupied with" getting clapped into a secret prison without due process. That hardly means I should look kindly on those who pretend the power to do so.

"What won't we allow?"

Quote:
..just consider what it says about this administration. Not only did Comey think that he had to rush to the hospital room to protect Ashcroft from having a conniving Card and Gonzales manipulate his severe illness and confusion by coercing his signature on a document -- behavior that is seen only in the worst cases of deceitful, conniving relatives coercing a sick and confused person to sign a new will -- but the administration's own FBI Director thought it was necessary to instruct his FBI agents not to allow Comey to be removed from the room.

Comey and Mueller were clearly both operating on the premise that Card and Gonzales were basically thugs. Indeed, Comey said that when Card ordered him to the White House, Comey refused to meet with Card without a witness being present, and that Card refused to allow Comey's summoned witness (Solicitor General Ted Olson) even to enter Card's office. These are the most trusted intimates of the White House -- the ones who are politically sympathetic to them and know them best -- and they prepared for, defended themselves against, the most extreme acts of corruption and thuggery from the President's Chief of Staff and his then-legal counsel (and current Attorney General of the United States).

Does this sound in any way like the behavior of a government operating under the rule of law, which believes that it had legal authority to spy on Americans without the warrants required for three decades by law? How can we possibly permit our government to engage in this behavior, to spy on us in deliberate violation of the laws which we enacted democratically precisely in order to limit how they can spy on us, and to literally commit felonies at will, knowing that they are breaking the law?

How is this not a major scandal on the level of the greatest presidential corruption and lawbreaking scandals in our country's history? Why is this only a one-day story that will focus on the hospital drama but not on what it reveals about the bulging and unparalleled corruption of this administration and the complete erosion of the rule of law in our country? And, as I've asked many times before, if we passively allow the President to simply break the law with impunity in how the government spies on our conversations, what don't we allow?
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...mey/index.html

Quote:
in case the import of this is not clear: John Ashcroft was way too moderate for these people. John Ashcroft.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...shcroft_a.html

That the Bush admin. would RISK such a scene.. just to get around the FISA court that already approves 99.995% of warrants.. doesn't give anyone pause to ask "WHY"?

Enough jokes about black SUVs.. I'm serious..
"What will it take" to get you to see the criminal intentions here?
It won't get better. It won't plateau. It will get worse. I predict we'll see more as this admin. limps into the sunset.

Senate Intelligence Committee chair, Jay Rockefeller:
"For the past six months, I have been requesting without success specific details about the program, including: how many terrorists have been identified; how many arrested; how many convicted; and how many terrorists have been deported or killed as a direct result of information obtained through the warrantless wiretapping program.
"I can assure you, not one person in Congress has the answers to these and many other fundamental questions."
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?
Old 05-16-2007, 06:15 PM   #40
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Re: Who's watching the watchers?

ladelfina,

You'll have to excuse the "black SUV" comment; most of my posts are intended to be humorous, thus the :P...

My stance, as I've posted here in the past, is to prefer less govt to more, lower taxes to higher, and more freedom, not less. I AM concerned that govt in general, and this administration in particular, can and will gradually encroach on our right to privacy in the name of "security". The price of liberty is eternal vigilance...
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