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Why Not Lose the Ethanol Mandate??
Old 05-01-2008, 10:43 AM   #1
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Why Not Lose the Ethanol Mandate??

Is it just me, or is the "ethanol mandate" killing our food prices?

To me, the next President can virtually guarantee reelection and high approval ratings by getting this thing unwound.

Alternative energy sources still will be developed due to the high price of oil...........

Bottom line, if the 51 cent a gallon subsidy was removed, WHO would buy ethanol??
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:48 AM   #2
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Yea lets go back to MBTE. The additive was a great smog killer but screwed up drinking water when it leaked into the ground. I say just use gasoline, no 10% ethanol added to the fuel.
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:01 AM   #3
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Diesel has been a big success in Europe. It is the dependence on sweet crude that keeps gas prices high. And there are technologies like Oxylene that can make diesel lower polluting than gasoline.
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:34 PM   #4
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To me, the next President can virtually guarantee reelection and high approval ratings by getting this thing unwound.
Isn't the whole problem that removing the ethanol mandate would do the opposite because of the midwest corn farmers?
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Old 05-01-2008, 12:41 PM   #5
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Unfortunately, only smart people realize what a mistake this is.

The masses think its great that we're putting our natural resources to work. The farmers like it. The ethanol producers like it.

Whole lot of people making money and a whole lot of people feeling good about it except for that mysterious sucking sound coming from our wallets.
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The mandate should be removed
Old 05-01-2008, 03:35 PM   #6
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The mandate should be removed

But that wouldn't stop ethanol. Only lower real oil prices would do that and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:02 PM   #7
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ethanol is likely not economically viable even at current gas prices, and perhaps not at all. it's pure politics.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:24 PM   #8
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Unfortunately, only smart people realize what a mistake this is.

The masses think its great that we're putting our natural resources to work. The farmers like it. The ethanol producers like it.

Whole lot of people making money and a whole lot of people feeling good about it except for that mysterious sucking sound coming from our wallets.
That mysterious sucking sound is being produced by the Govt doing good for us once again. And the current thinking is that we should feed this monster with more tax money and make it grow bigger? Yeah, that will help.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:27 PM   #9
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Just another example of knee jerk reactions to perceived problems and solutions going a bit awry when the consequences arent fully thought out.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:43 PM   #10
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ethanol is likely not economically viable even at current gas prices, and perhaps not at all. it's pure politics.
This is the great hoax of it all. If you want to make farmers and ethanol producers happy while paying higher prices for food and everything else, E85 is just what you want.

With gas prices soaring past $3 a gallon this spring...A growing number of drivers are taking a serious look at E85 Ethanol, the fuel made from corn!
Is it worth trying...If your car can handle it? You may be surprised what some drivers are finding.
Stacie Meyer and her husband are burning a lot of 3 dollar plus gas in their Ford Explorer.
But then they spotted an E85 pump.
Like many newer cars, their Explorer can take E85 Ethanol made from corn.
And so when they saw E85 for under 3 bucks a gallon, they filled up.
But the thrill didn't last long.
Stacie says"We found while it is cheaper, which we like, and better for the environment, which we love, the fuel economy is a bit less."
Stacie says their Explorer usually gets around 18 miles per gallon.
But when they checked the E85 mileage with their trip odometer, they were stunned.
Stacie says "It went down to about 12 MPG. A huge difference! "We knew it would give decreased mileage...We didn't know it would be that much."
Critics call it the "dirty little secret" of E85 fuel: that it turns gas guzzlers into corn guzzlers.
*According to the EPA, many vehicles see a 25 % or greater mileage reduction with E85!
*The EPA rates the Meyer's Explorer as 16 city, 18 highway with gas...But only 11/13 with e85.
*The new Chevy Tahoe? The EPA rates it 15/21 with gas, just 11/15 mpg with E85.

Bottom line: Car and Driver Magazine says E85 needs to be almost 30 percent cheaper than gas to save you money. "If its gonna be a 30% decrease in fuel economy, it has to be 30% cheaper. And its not," says Stacie.
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:15 PM   #11
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Just another example of knee jerk reactions to perceived problems and solutions going a bit awry when the consequences arent fully thought out.
Stop blasting Al Gore! He is doing the best he can!
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:48 PM   #12
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That mysterious sucking sound is being produced by the Govt doing good for us once again.
Let's be fair. Ethanol is only meant to hold us until the hydrogen cars arrive.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:15 PM   #13
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The whole menu of proposed solutions is such crap......... E85, hybrid, plug-in hybrid, electric, etc. They're all wrong.

Wind energy direct to motion without the intervening step of conversion to electricity is the way to go.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:16 PM   #14
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Why Not Lose the Ethanol Mandate??
Because that would require quite a few people to admit they were mistaken.
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:52 PM   #15
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Diesel has been a big success in Europe. It is the dependence on sweet crude that keeps gas prices high.
However, that European reliance on diesel affects the US. When the oil is cracked, there's only so much of the heavy components (diesel, kerosene/Jet-A/heating oil) and so much of the lighter stuff (gasoline). Yes, it is possible to get different ratios, but it is expensive. As I understand it, the Europeans use so much diesel as a proportion of their motor fuels that they end up importing the heavy stuff from the US. Thus, the US (more dependence on lighter fuels) and Europe (more dependence on heavier fuels) complement each other and do a good job of efficiently using all the fractions of the oil. If the US increases our use of diesel, we'll be adding more demand for an already relatively scarce commodity.

At least that's what I read somewhere. I'm not a petroleum engineer (but my dad was).
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:02 AM   #16
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The practicality of cellulosic ethanol is still several years off.

If there is an ethanol push... the govt should probably consider the economic impact on food. They could reword the mandate to describe it in terms of sources. And push funding in the R&D of cellulosic ethanol.


Ethanol is a short-term solution that is intended to help continue to utilize the current infrastructure and the internal combustion engine. It combined with the Hybrid will probably be replaced by some all (or primary electric) electric vehicle in 10 years. As the hybrid technology improves, he internal combustion engine in a Hybrid will continue to shrink in size as battery technology improves and as the plug-in electric car advances. Someday a car will have a very small internal combustion engine that is not as the primary power-plant, but a secondary weak power plant to help one limp home or to a location to recharge.

We are seeing the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine in personal transportation.

Once the automobile companies get serious (and our govt).... I believe that it will accelerate the replacement.
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Old 05-02-2008, 05:07 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by newguy888 View Post
Yea lets go back to MBTE. The additive was a great smog killer but screwed up drinking water when it leaked into the ground. I say just use gasoline, no 10% ethanol added to the fuel.
You can still mandate the 10%... I do not think it is subsidized.... but if it is... take it away from CORN based... let them make it any way they wish...

The 85% is what needs to go without subsidies...
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Old 05-02-2008, 06:23 AM   #18
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"Why Not Lose the Ethanol Mandate??"
Follow the money.

Monsanto
ConAgra

There're no lobbie$ for anything that doesn't make some big constituent money.
Logic be damned.
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:30 AM   #19
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... until the hydrogen cars arrive.
For some reason, that made me imagine a huge gospel choir in the Church of the Eco-Savior swaying, clapping hands, and singing a lively gospel song about how wonderful things will be “When the hydrogen cars arrive!” Here’s the sort of lyrics I imagine they’d sing, some parts for the whole choir and some for a soloist:

No more suffrin’ no more sorrow
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!
It’s gonna be a bright tomorrow
-when the hydrygen cars arrive!

Holistic healing for the planet
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!
That sinful gas, we’re gonna ban it
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!

Prai-aise Gaia, when the hydrogen cars arrive!

Well I went down to the highway, an’ I’ll tell you what I saw
‘A-burnin’ hydrocarbons violatin’ nature’s law
A million carbon footprints were ‘a-stompin’ on the ground
Engines roarin’ and ‘a-revvin with that awful carbon sound!
But you better hear my warnin’, you better listen what I say!
That carbon foot is gonna stomp you come the eco-judgment day!

Well there’ll be no more eco-panic,
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!
All our food will be organic,
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!

No oppression exploitation,
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!
And peace for every nation,
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!

Prai-aise Gaia, when the hydrogen cars arrive!

We just got to save this planet from its global warmin’ fate,
So I got on my knees to pray and meditate
I begged Gaia please help us, please show us the way
So the carbon-foot don’t stomp us come the eco-judgement day!
And then I saw an eco-vision, it was ‘a-comin’ from ‘a-far
Our precious eco-savior, holy hy-dro-gen car!

All our emissions will be clean,
When the hydrogen cars arrive!
And we’ll all wear hemp blue jeans,
When the hydrogen cars arrive!

No more hunger, pain, or fear,
When the hydrogen cars arrive!
Peace across the eco-sphere,
When the hydrogen cars around!

Listen sisters, listen brothers, listen to me well!
If you wanna save your soul from a burnin’ carbon hell,
You better change your ways, and you better change ‘em fast,
Cause we’re burnin’ up the planet and that oil ain’t gonna last!
For clean water in the rivers and clear skies up above,
It’s time fill your tanks up with hy-dro-gen love!

No more suffrin’ no more sorrow
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!
It’s gonna be a bright tomorrow
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!

Holistic healing for the planet
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!
That sinful gas, we’re gonna ban it
-when the hydrogen cars arrive!

Prai-aise Gaia, when the hydrogen cars arrive!
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:21 AM   #20
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However, that European reliance on diesel affects the US. When the oil is cracked, there's only so much of the heavy components (diesel, kerosene/Jet-A/heating oil) and so much of the lighter stuff (gasoline). Yes, it is possible to get different ratios, but it is expensive. As I understand it, the Europeans use so much diesel as a proportion of their motor fuels that they end up importing the heavy stuff from the US.
So we could reduce our dependence on foreign oil by using it ourselves rather than wasting corn (and tax money) on E85?
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