Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-06-2018, 06:23 AM   #81
Administrator
MichaelB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 40,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Seems that we've crossed some line somewhere where we now believe that wealth is a zero sum game. That somehow I managed to buy my boat not because I was wise with my money but because I stepped on someone else's back.
An important distinction, usually missed. More compensation for some does not mean less for others. CEO compensation is, by any measure, excessive, and the process is deeply conflicted. That money comes from shareholders, who are limited in their ability to act, and has no impact on average employee compensation.

Likewise, to say businesses with high profits could (should) pay employees more is circular reasoning. Profits are high because employee costs are constrained.

Real (after inflation) hourly wages have remained constant, increasing about 10% over the past half century. They declined, but recovered and grew over the past 20 years. To grow wages more, there also needs to be growth in labor productivity, and this seems to have stagnated. That’s is the real issue (IMHO) but very complex.

The real loss here is a slow decline in relative standard of living for the median wage, which is difficult to measure. CPI hedonic adjustments disguise real price increases (relative to CPI). Of course, that may be offset by chained CPI, which suggests that buyers are able to offset some inflation without any change in standard of living. Not sure they offset over long periods, but they matter.
MichaelB is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-06-2018, 06:28 AM   #82
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeea View Post
And you know she was "on SNAP" how?
And you know she drives an Escalade how?
And you know she ate "better" than you did how?
Don't know about the poster you're responding to but it becomes obvious when the EBT card won't pay for some non-approved items (usually some higher end food product...let's not go there) they're buying along with other stuff so he/she has to use cash and creates a double transaction while I'm standing there 3 feet away waiting to pay for my quart of milk.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 06:29 AM   #83
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
Likewise, to say businesses with high profits could (should) pay employees more is circular reasoning. Profits are high because employee costs are constrained.
Can you imagine a scenario where a business can have high profits, yet still increase real wages?
joeea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 06:31 AM   #84
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Don't know about the poster you're responding to but it becomes obvious when the EBT card won't pay for some non-approved items (usually some higher end food product...let's not go there) they're buying so he/she has to use cash and creates a double transaction while I'm standing there 3 feet away waiting to pay for my quart of milk.
Ah. So you saw one too?
joeea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 06:56 AM   #85
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeea View Post
Ah. So you saw one too?
Almost every single time I go to the grocery store.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 07:02 AM   #86
gone traveling
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 3,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Almost every single time I go to the grocery store.
So this one person who eats better than you shops the at exactly the same times you do.

Or else the parking lot if full of Escalades.

Okay.
joeea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 07:15 AM   #87
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeea View Post
So this one person who eats better than you shops the at exactly the same times you do.

Or else the parking lot if full of Escalades.

Okay.
C'mon Joe. It's a different person every time.

(plus you're responding to a different poster than me; go back and read the thread)
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 07:49 AM   #88
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
mpeirce's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Northern Ohio
Posts: 3,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeea View Post
A welfare queen reference! Wow. Takes me back to the 80s...



And you know she was "on SNAP" how?

And you know she drives an Escalade how?

And you know she ate "better" than you did how?

My DS worked at a food store in high school. One day he told us about a customer who paid for a big box of lobster with SNAP.

It was quite the eye opener for him.
mpeirce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 08:23 AM   #89
Recycles dryer sheets
Lukeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdlerth View Post
I work at a unionized manufacturing plant. You'd be astonished what people will believe. Barely half contribute to their 401k, despite a dollar-for-dollar match on the first 6%. Why? "I don't want to give Megacorp any of my money."

And just in case you aren't sufficiently appalled, remember this: they are allowed to reproduce, and their vote counts as much as yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Seems that we've crossed some line somewhere where we now believe that wealth is a zero sum game. That somehow I managed to buy my boat not because I was wise with my money but because I stepped on someone else's back.

My own nephew, thinking he was complimenting me, commented: "you must have cheated a lot to get where you are". (After that comment, he'll find out who got cheated when my will is read), but until then the idea of saving, investing and being careful with your money seems to be an odd, outdated concept.

We're now in envy realm vs aspiration; the guy driving the Rolls is a bad guy now instead of someone you want to be.
There are a surprising number of people who are willing to think the system is skewed against them (imo a combination of who you surround yourself with and lately where you get news from) . It’s easy some to blame someone else when you aren’t where you really wish to be in life (financially / socially...or what is important to them). I have spoken to a few Opinionated individuals that are beyond help with regards to FI. It’s almost like they can’t see beyond the next week let alone 30 years. I’m sure that these same people will happily spew how the system was rigged against them.

Sadly a byproduct of this realization for me is that I’ve become less generous .. more picky about who I help.
__________________
Person who will often put his foot in his mouth and not realize it.

2020 or bust!
Or
Perhaps 2021...2022...NVM
Lukeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 08:42 AM   #90
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
USGrant1962's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: DC area
Posts: 2,479
Pew Research has a good article on this, with data.

For most Americans, real wages have barely budged for decades | Pew Research Center

Inflation-adjusted wages have been flat for decades; but wages have not "gotten so low", workers are not "getting nothing", and the "growing cost of basics" has not exceeded wages.



Benefit costs have increased by 22.5% in real terms since 2001, so that is where a lot of compensation growth has gone.



IMO, C-suite compensation has increased too much, but that is a shareholder issue and only tenuously related to workforce compensation.
__________________
FI and Semi-ER March 24, 2017
Consulting to stay engaged

"All models are wrong, some are useful." - George Box
There is always a well-known solution to every human problem: neat, plausible, and wrong.” - H.L. Mencken
USGrant1962 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 09:00 AM   #91
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Gurabo, Puerto Rico
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt34 View Post
A hobby of mine is flying radio control airplanes. The ones I buy are made in China, but all of the design, marketing, and product support work is done in Chicago.
We share the same hobby
Its a good portion of my discretionary spending plan (Starting OMY in 2020).
perez99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 09:18 AM   #92
Recycles dryer sheets
Cassius King's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 384
Cassius King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 10:45 AM   #93
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
Seems that we've crossed some line somewhere where we now believe that wealth is a zero sum game. That somehow I managed to buy my boat not because I was wise with my money but because I stepped on someone else's back.

My own nephew, thinking he was complimenting me, commented: "you must have cheated a lot to get where you are". (After that comment, he'll find out who got cheated when my will is read), but until then the idea of saving, investing and being careful with your money seems to be an odd, outdated concept.

We're now in envy realm vs aspiration; the guy driving the Rolls is a bad guy now instead of someone you want to be.
So instead of teaching (educating) your nephew on how you came about owning a boat you are just not going to leave him anything in the will. People who are not willing to correct somebody on their wrong assumptions are usually the ones with something to hide.

Just because a guy drives a rolls does not mean his employees drive yugos.
hopefullyoneday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 10:55 AM   #94
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeee View Post
There are a surprising number of people who are willing to think the system is skewed against them (imo a combination of who you surround yourself with and lately where you get news from) . It’s easy some to blame someone else when you aren’t where you really wish to be in life (financially / socially...or what is important to them). I have spoken to a few Opinionated individuals that are beyond help with regards to FI. It’s almost like they can’t see beyond the next week let alone 30 years. I’m sure that these same people will happily spew how the system was rigged against them.

Sadly a byproduct of this realization for me is that I’ve become less generous .. more picky about who I help.
I agree, you have to determine who is putting in the extra effort worthy of compensation as oppose to those just doing enough. Unfortunately after time the one working harder without better compensation than those doing just enough will eventually give up and just go with the flow.
hopefullyoneday is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 11:10 AM   #95
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 8,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefullyoneday View Post
So instead of teaching (educating) your nephew on how you came about owning a boat you are just not going to leave him anything in the will. People who are not willing to correct somebody on their wrong assumptions are usually the ones with something to hide.
At 46 years old, he's a bit beyond educating on how hard work, saving, good money management and LBYM is worth it.

He's quite sure in his mind on how the world works, that is: cheat to get ahead, do as little as possible for yourself, your boss is out to get you, 'they' won't let you win, and hope someday to hit the lottery.

He'll get something but, with a drinking and gambling problem, I'm not sure if leaving that guy a half a mil would be in his best interest. There's 9 other nieces and nephews who'll benefit more

His comment had nothing to do with the boat but on our general affluence. He's from DW's side so he isn't quite up to speed on how generational wealth works and, in his case, I'm afraid he'll never find out.
__________________
Living well is the best revenge!
Retired @ 52 in 2005
marko is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 11:10 AM   #96
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopefullyoneday View Post
I agree, you have to determine who is putting in the extra effort worthy of compensation as oppose to those just doing enough. Unfortunately after time the one working harder without better compensation than those doing just enough will eventually give up and just go with the flow.
Why wouldn't the one who is working harder without better compensation just change jobs? That is a better path than giving up.

Though in some cases it could be that the person working harder is not resulting in better results/outcomes and that is the reason that the better comp isn't happening. IOW, some people need to work harder just to keep up.

Very situational.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 11:37 AM   #97
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,643
Random observations:

I don't hear people saying CEO compensation is the cause of the problem. It's one of many symptoms. It's an easy one to point to, because anyone can see that the CEO is not worth 400 times more than the skilled employee producing the product or service. I don't think anybody is suggesting that cutting CEO pay will help that employee.

We can also probably all agree that a large percentage of people who claim to be down on their luck are simply those who made poor decisions. Maybe the "welfare queen" stereotype is overused, even cruel, but there ARE some who fit the profile pretty well. Just as often men as women, by the way.

Interesting comment about a zero-sum game. From my perspective, it seems about 10-15 years ago, MegaCorp management started seeing things that way. Before then, they talked about "stakeholders," meaning customers, stockholders AND employees. A justifiable decision was framed as a win-win-win situation.

The turnaround was very abrupt. The employees and customers became the enemy. It's only gotten worse. They don't even pretend any more. They take exactly as much as much as they can get away with, and raw greed is the only justification they even bother to give.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 11:49 AM   #98
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,358
Data shows that in general people on food stamps tend to buy the same kinds of foods as households not on food stamps:

"Though people like to complain about food stamp recipients using their benefits for unhealthy things like soda and extravagances like crab legs, new data show they buy basically the same food as everyone else."

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b058ce7aaadea0
__________________
Even clouds seem bright and breezy, 'Cause the livin' is free and easy, See the rat race in a new way, Like you're wakin' up to a new day (Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether lyrics, Alan Parsons Project, based on an EA Poe story)
daylatedollarshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 11:58 AM   #99
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 9,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
We can also probably all agree that a large percentage of people who claim to be down on their luck are simply those who made poor decisions.

I don't know all the posters on this board, but in real life I can't think of anyone I know who would agree with that statement.
__________________
Even clouds seem bright and breezy, 'Cause the livin' is free and easy, See the rat race in a new way, Like you're wakin' up to a new day (Dr. Tarr and Professor Fether lyrics, Alan Parsons Project, based on an EA Poe story)
daylatedollarshort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 12:04 PM   #100
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
pb4uski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sarasota, FL & Vermont
Posts: 36,266
FWIW, I agree with CaptTom.... in most cases it is simply a decision to live beyond their means rather than below their means.
__________________
If something cannot endure laughter.... it cannot endure.
Patience is the art of concealing your impatience.
Slow and steady wins the race.

Retired Jan 2012 at age 56
pb4uski is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Have you failed (financially) at ER and returned to work? FUEGO FIRE and Money 88 06-25-2015 11:23 AM
Why aren't all USB cables the same? TromboneAl Other topics 10 10-26-2006 02:12 PM
Why aren't there more women science professors? Nords Young Dreamers 59 06-03-2006 09:14 AM

» Quick Links

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:07 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.