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Old 07-03-2010, 12:21 PM   #101
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A red card, PK and disqualification from the next game as a penalty in the Suarez situation (the defender is behind the goal line and hand balls a certain goal) is simply not good enough especially on the last play of the game with the game tied. That's a huge injustice. Not talking about a hand ball in the box, but one from inside the goal line done intentionally. I think Refs should have discretion in cases like Suarez to give an automatic goal or TKO the violator by awarding the game to the other side -- that to me is fair.

I guess to each his own.... but would you have the same penalty at the beginning of the game and the end I would think that awarding a game after 1 minute of play because someone did a hand ball like the guy did... not good..

I can see that Ghana will say we would have won the game IF we were awarded the goal... but the ball did not go in... maybe it would have hit the guys face, deflected into the other guys face that was next to him... hit the crossbar, bounced down and never have gone in... the thing is... we do NOT know for sure it would have gone in... sure... I would bet that 9999 out of 10,000 times it would have... but we actually do not know (the one guy was there and there was another.. remember...)...

He got the worst penalty that can be given in soccer....



On another note.... WOW... did you see Germany take apart Argentina

I will have to revise my pick... I think it is Germany's year...
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:35 PM   #102
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I´m glad Germany beat Argentina. Can´t stand their idea of soccer as a religion. And Maradona seems..... Well, don´t let me get started with him and his antics.....
Also I can´t say I´m sad for Brazil. Too many STARS on both teams, Argentina and Brazil..
And the same media manufactured STARDOM status of our players/team makes fear the worst....
Well, in an hour we´ll see what´s what!
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Old 07-03-2010, 12:54 PM   #103
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Was a great football match to watch (I caught it midway through the first half). Germany was on fire. Great intensity from the German side, never let up a bit even to the last second. Been a great World Cup to watch so far and I'm sure will be just as great to the end.
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Old 07-03-2010, 05:54 PM   #104
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I guess to each his own.... but would you have the same penalty at the beginning of the game and the end I would think that awarding a game after 1 minute of play because someone did a hand ball like the guy did... not good..

I can see that Ghana will say we would have won the game IF we were awarded the goal... but the ball did not go in... maybe it would have hit the guys face, deflected into the other guys face that was next to him... hit the crossbar, bounced down and never have gone in... the thing is... we do NOT know for sure it would have gone in... sure... I would bet that 9999 out of 10,000 times it would have... but we actually do not know (the one guy was there and there was another.. remember...)...

He got the worst penalty that can be given in soccer....



On another note.... WOW... did you see Germany take apart Argentina

I will have to revise my pick... I think it is Germany's year...
Did you see the replay of the Suarez hand ball? There were two defenders, one in front of the goal line and Suarez in back of the goal line. If it hit Suarez's face, while he was in the goal, it would have been a goal, period -- the man was behind the goal line and he reached out over the goal line to bat the ball away. Unless the laws of physics were suspended or some magical gust of wind came and miraculously deviated the ball from its normal path over the next few inches, this was a goal, absent the hand ball. I think it's futile to defend the rule here on the basis that the red card plus penalty kick makes sense in this case!

I didn't say you award a TKO or the game for every hand ball, certainly not one in the first minute of the game. The current penalty is not enough for a situation like Suarez's -- I can't see how anyone could agree that that current penalty serves the interests of the game in a situation like Suarez -- the last play of the game! What would you say if in the Super Bowl game during Sudden Death over-time a defensive back intercepts a pass and is heading down the sideline for a touchdown with no one opposing player in sight or in back of him; as he's running down the sideline alongside the other team's bench and 42 yard line, someone off the bench from the other team tackles the defensive back! I believe the rule in Amercian football would be to award a touch down.

Suarez's worst penalty is that he'll always be remembered for this transgression and many will consider him a cheat.

BTW, Germany was very impressive. The Spain-Paraguay game was amazing; All of the players who missed PKs after Guyan missed his in the Ghana game might be suffering from fear of hitting the cross bar, hence they all seem to aim low with their kicks.

I like the Dutch.
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Old 07-03-2010, 09:21 PM   #105
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If Suarez had denied that he'd done it, that would be cheating. He openly (and effectively) took advantage of a glaring defect in the rules. It might not have been "cricket," and I don't expect Suarez will be getting any free drinks in Ghana (and he should not touch them if offered), and I even doubt it was in keeping with the spirit of the game--but I just can't call it cheating.
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Old 07-03-2010, 09:54 PM   #106
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It's not any different than the trailing team deliberately fouling in the closing minutes of a basketball game, hoping that the opponent will miss the free throw and they can get the ball back.
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Old 07-04-2010, 12:26 AM   #107
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What does a denial have to do with anything? Madonna and Henry didn't deny that the "hand of God" was responsible for the goals that won games for their teams -- it's not like the Ref comes to the players and quizzes them on violations/infractions. It's a violation, whether you deny it or fess up. Concealment of an infraction has nothing to do with whether the violation crossed the line of fair play.

Also, it's fundamentally different than deliberate fouls in the closing minutes of a game to get possession of the ball in basketball. It's not even close to those strategic fouls. It's more akin to deliberately fouling a key player at the end of the game on his way toward a certain slum dunk. The Ref can award 2 shots for the foul and two shots for technical/flagrant fouls and the League can suspend the player for a number of games.

I admit the current sanction for a Suarez situation is no sanction at all when the game has been taken away by the infraction. But the severity or lack thereof of a sanction doesn't demonstrate to me that a cheating situation has not occurred.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:30 AM   #108
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What does a denial have to do with anything? Madonna and Henry didn't deny that the "hand of God" was responsible for the goals that won games for their teams -- it's not like the Ref comes to the players and quizzes them on violations/infractions. It's a violation, whether you deny it or fess up. Concealment of an infraction has nothing to do with whether the violation crossed the line of fair play.

Also, it's fundamentally different than deliberate fouls in the closing minutes of a game to get possession of the ball in basketball. It's not even close to those strategic fouls. It's more akin to deliberately fouling a key player at the end of the game on his way toward a certain slum dunk. The Ref can award 2 shots for the foul and two shots for technical/flagrant fouls and the League can suspend the player for a number of games.

I admit the current sanction for a Suarez situation is no sanction at all when the game has been taken away by the infraction. But the severity or lack thereof of a sanction doesn't demonstrate to me that a cheating situation has not occurred.

Did you have money on this game or something

It is NOT cheating... you might not like the rules as written.. and you might not like what he did... but cheat Strong words for doing something that has a penalty in the game and the penalty was carried out...

I would have to go back and see the video to see how far back he was... remember, the ball has to be all the way past the line... not just part of the ball.. you might think it was going in... and I think it was going in... but we are not sure... that is the problem....

Your example of someone coming off the bench is ridiculous... nobody came off the bench in this game... it was done by a legal player...

A better example would be... (and not in the Super Bowl as it is not the last game... but a playoff game none the less).... the last play of the game... the guy is on the 10 yard line and takes a pitch out.. the running back in about to make the winning TD when the defender... not being able to tackle the guy grabs his face mask and pulls him down at the 1 yard line... nobody else out there to help... guess what... he does NOT get the touchdown... it is called a penalty and the team gets ONE more play.... just like here... the team got one more play and blew it...

You might say it is not in the spirit of the game.... screw spirit... I want my team to win... and if a handball will give them the opportunity to do it... I WANT the guy to do a handball...

That is why I say... to each his own... you think it is cheating... I think it is an excellent strategy... all within the rules..


PS... if you heard the announcers on another play... there was a breakaway and the defender tripped the guy... on purpose... the team that was tripped tried to get the ref to give a red card and a PK... he did not... would the guy have scored... from what I was seeing... yes... not as sure as this one... but he was one of the better striker against only the goalkeeper.... not good odds to stop it... the defender took a gamble on this one and got away with it... the other one.. he did not...
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:56 AM   #109
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Wow. What a week. This has been a very exciting series so far. So much for all the talk of the decline in European football.

This thread has exceeded 100 posts and is still on topic. Imagine that.

Quote:
I´m glad Germany beat Argentina. Can´t stand their idea of soccer as a religion. And Maradona seems..... Well, don´t let me get started with him and his antics.....
Agree. TV cameras gave him far too much face time.

Quote:
Also I can´t say I´m sad for Brazil. Too many STARS on both teams, Argentina and Brazil.
I would have enjoyed a final between the best European and South American teams, but Brazil’s game is not the “beautiful game” it once was. Too many Brazilian players now spend their careers in Europe.

Quote:
Did you see the replay of the Suarez hand ball? There were two defenders, one in front of the goal line and Suarez in back of the goal line. If it hit Suarez's face, while he was in the goal, it would have been a goal, period -- the man was behind the goal line and he reached out over the goal line to bat the ball away. Unless the laws of physics were suspended or some magical gust of wind came and miraculously deviated the ball from its normal path over the next few inches, this was a goal, absent the hand ball. I think it's futile to defend the rule here on the basis that the red card plus penalty kick makes sense in this case!
The ref applied the rule correctly. To do anything else would involve judgment, and referee judgment should not affect the outcome of the game unless evidence is overwhelming – and it was not.

BTW, IMHO Suarez didn’t hit the ball intentionally, it was an instinctive reaction. Makes no difference in how it is handled, but it wasn’t premeditated or deliberate. And he received the most severe sanction possible in a football match – expulsion plus penalty kick.

For those really interested in conspiracy, Uruguay protested the originally assigned referee (Howard Weebo of England) – this ref was a sub.


Edit - I just saw a picture of the handball from the back of the net and am not so sure now that it was pure instinct - the picture makes it seem deliberate. Even so, the rule was applied correctly. You can't have rules governing every possible situation and that vary based on when they are broken. If FIFA believes a more serious penalty is warranted then Suarez will be suspended from play for a longer period and Uruguay's victory will be forever tainted. Time to move on.
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Old 07-04-2010, 04:23 PM   #110
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Rugby has always had the notion of the "penalty try". Basically, if in the referee's opinion a try (approx "touchdown" in American football) would have been scored but for a foul by the opposition, well, the try is awarded anyway. Applies from the first to the last minute of the game.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:06 PM   #111
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So, who is gonna win? Germany, Spain, Netherlands or Uruguay? I'm thinking finals of Germany/Netherlands and Germany triumphs.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:19 PM   #112
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Old 07-06-2010, 04:21 PM   #113
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Well, world cup history will be made. A European team has never won the cup outside of Europe, but will for the first time this sunday.

My daughter is having a world cup final match party this sunday. Competing countries traditional cuisine will be the motive for food and drink.

Sure glad Netherlands won.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:41 PM   #114
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Netherlands vs Spain I enjoyed two really good games yesterday and today. Will probably miss the final Sunday as I have prior commitment.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:56 PM   #115
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Well, now that we are there, after beating Germany, no less..... we can´t succumb against Holland (mind you, a great team), can we? Of course we can! But as we say around here: "Torres más altas cayeron..."

Anyone needs a little help with their Spanish?
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:00 PM   #116
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What a game. Spain dominated from beginning to end and earned its place in the finals. This has been an excellent tournament so far, and we are really looking forward to sunday – the match, a get-together with friends and family and some tasty food.

Still working on the menu but so far we have: jamón serrano, queso manchego, tortilla, gambas al ajillo, champiñones al ajillo. Would really enjoy some salpicón de mariscos but we don’t know how to prepare. And sangria.

Just to show we're completely neutral we'll also have some heineken.

Vicente - have any plans for sunday?
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:14 PM   #117
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Did not see the game.... but am shocked that Spain won after looking at both of their last games... Germany was on the whole time... Spain looked weak...


I will be picking Spain to win it all now... good for me that my fantasy team allows you to change during each round... I got 35 of the picks correct... I never wimped out and picked a tie in the round robin... so lost a lot of those... (just looked... 28 wrong... 14 of those being draws...)...
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:12 PM   #118
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And "Paul" the octopus is right again...never bet against him....

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/...-beat-germany/

All hail our new octopus overlord, Paul | Posted Sports | National Post

Maybe I should get Paul to pick my lottery numbers??
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:46 PM   #119
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Holland has a very good team this year. Go Holland.
Holland were in the final in 1974 and 1978, I loved the team in 1974. Perhaps, they should win this time :-)
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:48 PM   #120
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Did not see the game.... but am shocked that Spain won after looking at both of their last games... Germany was on the whole time... Spain looked weak...
Spain dominated the whole game, and sure deserve the win.
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