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Old 09-25-2007, 05:16 PM   #181
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[quote=Joss;559663]Sorry. I still don't get what the problem for an atheist to hear a prayer would be. I never have understood this.

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Joss... I don't have a problem.. and I am not atheist either... but what it imiplies is that a prayer is 'good' and 'necessary'... but then by that definition, a wiccan or devil 'prayer' is also 'good' and 'necessary'... and I WOULD have a problem with one of those prayers... it is one of those slippery slopes that people talk about...
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:22 PM   #182
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imiplies is that a prayer is 'good' and 'necessary'... but then by that definition, a wiccan or devil 'prayer' is also 'good' and 'necessary'... and I WOULD have a problem with one of those prayers... it is one of those slippery slopes that people talk about...
I (athiest) would love to hear a "devil prayer" as I've heard that the story goes that the devil's punishment was never again to see the face of god. Not sure if that would be amusing or strange.
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:38 PM   #183
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Joss... I don't have a problem.. and I am not atheist either... but what it imiplies is that a prayer is 'good' and 'necessary'... but then by that definition, a wiccan or devil 'prayer' is also 'good' and 'necessary'... and I WOULD have a problem with one of those prayers... it is one of those slippery slopes that people talk about...
Don't forget the invoations of the Pastafarians towards their Almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster!
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Old 09-25-2007, 05:58 PM   #184
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In the situation we're discussing, those praying were southern Christians. Would any of you who would object to being subjected to listening to them bless a meal also object if those praying were not Christian? Or, if those praying were Christian, but members of a racial minority? Say, for example, if you were working for a company where most of the employees were Baptist African Americans and from time to time you were exposed to overhearing them bless a meal? Or you worked for a foreign owned company with many Muslim employees and you were exposed to some of their religious practices?
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:05 PM   #185
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[...]Put Jews and Nazis in the same room together up until they understand each other? Put blacks and KKK together? Since you can't do that we have to accept to coexist with people with don't understand. Even repulsive opinions are protected but NOT actions (such as lynching etc). Remember ACLU lawyers protected the right of Neo-nazis to parade in Jewish Skokie IL.

Godwin bless.
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:15 PM   #186
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In the situation we're discussing, the "prayers" were southern Christians. Would any of you who would object to being subjected to listening to them bless a meal also object if the "prayers" were not Christian? Or, if the "prayers" were Christian, but members of a racial minority? Say, for example, if you were working for a company where most of the employees were Baptist African Americans and from time to time you were exposed to overhearing them bless a meal? Or you worked for a foreign owned company with many Muslim employees and you were exposed to some of their religious practices?
And the problem with this would be what No one is trying to "persuade" me to become on of them? A meal blessing is NOT a religious conversion ceremony - I have yet to hear a meal sermon. Heavens forbid if we were to have a little cross training on the blessing front! (and who says one must pay attention to the words they are speaking? My selective listening is tuned quite well - apparently not commonplace in our society)
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:18 PM   #187
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As an ACLU card carrier (join near Lincoln Sq) on 5th.
There are situations that require a lot of tolerance. We advocate exchange of diverse views without vitriol.

Unfortunately, we have militarists, alcoholic oriented individuals, right wing religious, leftist non-religious, and other strange orientations, yet the ACLU is still able to help.

Leave the Flying Squirrel to fly, it rocks.
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Old 09-25-2007, 06:28 PM   #188
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Heavens forbid if we were to have a little cross training on the blessing front!
Which way is it again, "left over right and right under?"
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Old 09-25-2007, 07:55 PM   #189
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Sorry. I still don't get what the problem for an atheist to hear a prayer would be. I never have understood this.

As I have said several times in this thread, I'm not a Christian. But I live among many folks that are, and am present on many occasions where a meal is blessed. I go to funerals in churches - people pray there. I go to weddings in churches - people pray there. Was I imposed on, religiously?

Do some of you avoid these occasions like vampires avoid daylight?
Joss and Cuppa (who seconded this post) I think you are completely missing the perspective of us nay-sayers. I have been to Bar Mitzva's, weddings, and religious activities of all sorts. I find them interesting. I will even participate to a degree to share in the community despite the fact that I do not believe in the teachings of the faithful of whatever event I am attending.

What we are opposed to is imposing these activities on people at work, school, etc. To accuse us of "avoiding these occasions like vampires avoid daylight" is outrageous. The next thing I expect is a Hitler reference - the guaranteed thread breaker. Oops, I just did it
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Old 09-25-2007, 08:34 PM   #190
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Godwin's Law has just been reached.
Godwin's Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think this ends the discussion.
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:02 PM   #191
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You know, donheff, I've been real patient through this... hoping some of you might just reach deep and find the generosity to let others pursue things that you (or I) might find unappealing. Live and let live, maybe. But about the only understandable point so far has been that it's the "implications" that are so horrible. So maybe not.

I asked a question: "Do some of you avoid these occasions like vampires avoid daylight?" That was an honest question - asked because I've found little of your position that makes sense unless there's some religi-phobic condition circulating here.

Now you respond: "To accuse us of "avoiding these occasions like vampires avoid daylight" is outrageous."

Fella - if you can't tell a question from an accusation, you need to go back to the children's table. That's been sadly typical of many of the resonses here. You blow up the situation to try to assign it some desparate meaning that's just not there, and has never been there. The odious act we've been discussing is saying a blessing at a single company lunch. Nothing more.


The ironic thing this thread has shown me is that zealots are just a pain in the butt to be around. Period. And now I can see that it doesn't matter if the zealot is religious or a-religious.
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Old 09-26-2007, 06:57 AM   #192
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You know, donheff, I've been real patient through this...
I asked a question: "Do some of you avoid these occasions like vampires avoid daylight?" That was an honest question -

Now you respond: "To accuse us of "avoiding these occasions like vampires avoid daylight" is outrageous."

Fella - if you can't tell a question from an accusation, you need to go back to the children's table.
You have to be joking. First you set up the situation by stating
Quote:
I still don't get what the problem for an atheist to hear a prayer would be
when in fact no one said they have a problem hearing a prayer - all we complain of is being forced to participate in prayers in our workplaces or take affirmative negative action (refuse to participate or leave) that immediately puts us in an apparantely hostile posture with respect to our co-workers.

Then you describe several completely different situations that I believe every godless atheist that has posted in this thread would be comfortable with.
Quote:
I'm not a Christian. But I live among many folks that are, and am present on many occasions where a meal is blessed. I go to funerals in churches - people pray there. I go to weddings in churches - people pray there. Was I imposed on, religiously?
And you close out with
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Do some of you avoid these occasions like vampires avoid daylight?
a clearly rhetorical question that accuses, not inquires.

Fella - if you can't understand what your works convey you should captain the children's table.
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Old 09-26-2007, 07:19 AM   #193
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You have to be joking. First you set up the situation by stating when in fact no one said they have a problem hearing a prayer - all we complain of is being forced to participate in prayers in our workplaces or take affirmative negative action (refuse to participate or leave) that immediately puts us in an apparantely hostile posture with respect to our co-workers.

Then you describe several completely different situations that I believe every godless atheist that has posted in this thread would be comfortable with.And you close out with a clearly rhetorical question that accuses, not inquires.

Fella - if you can't understand what your works convey you should captain the children's table.
Joss, evidently your words are considered works. And I understand you completely. It's the other's frothings that I'm having a hard time with. Very vitriolic. Must be hiding something.

I suggest that if someone is easily offended by prayer, jokes, casual conversation, organized eating, etc., to simply give company meeting a miss. It's really not about prayer at all. It's about looking for any excuse to be offended.

No offense intended >
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Old 09-26-2007, 09:29 AM   #194
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Thanks Pensioner. It's been a tad lonesome.

donheff: "...all we complain of is being forced to participate in prayers in our workplaces..."

Listening to another person say a blessing before lunch is "being forced to participate".... how?

Wouldn't extending participation to all present result in incriminating witnesses as well as perpetrators? Does attending a sporting event as a fan mean you go suit up as a player? You go to the game and watch. But you don't play. You are part of the event, but not the game. You participate in the lunch. You watch the blessing, you don't recite it.

Uncomfortable, as a non-believing leader, saying the blessing yourself? It's not that complicated. I've done this in my workplace four times a year for the last 15 years (gosh, is that about 60 times?).

I just use management rule #1: delegate it to the one that asked. Then I stand there. We all stand there. We all listen. It's over. I smile. Everyone smiles. We hit the eats. We joke. We laugh. We clean up and go back to work.

No one is forced to lip-synch or recite. Nobody "checks me out" to see if I open my eyes because there's "no-peeking" for believers. No one "makes note" of fidgeting or mumbling or low-yield "amen's". But then I'm very fortunate to have a work force of genuine adults.

And there was not a single thing in the original description that differed from this description.

I'm with Pensioner on this: "It's really not about prayer at all. It's about looking for any excuse to be offended."
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Old 09-26-2007, 09:55 AM   #195
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Thanks Pensioner. It's been a tad lonesome.

donheff: "...all we complain of is being forced to participate in prayers in our workplaces..."

Listening to another person say a blessing before lunch is "being forced to participate".... how?

Wouldn't extending participation to all present result in incriminating witnesses as well as perpetrators? Does attending a sporting event as a fan mean you go suit up as a player? You go to the game and watch. But you don't play. You are part of the event, but not the game. You participate in the lunch. You watch the blessing, you don't recite it.

Uncomfortable, as a non-believing leader, saying the blessing yourself? It's not that complicated. I've done this in my workplace four times a year for the last 15 years (gosh, is that about 60 times?).

I just use management rule #1: delegate it to the one that asked. Then I stand there. We all stand there. We all listen. It's over. I smile. Everyone smiles. We hit the eats. We joke. We laugh. We clean up and go back to work.

No one is forced to lip-synch or recite. Nobody "checks me out" to see if I open my eyes because there's "no-peeking" for believers. No one "makes note" of fidgeting or mumbling or low-yield "amen's". But then I'm very fortunate to have a work force of genuine adults.

And there was not a single thing in the original description that differed from this description.

I'm with Pensioner on this: "It's really not about prayer at all. It's about looking for any excuse to be offended."
Religious Freedom anyone? Right to be left alone?

What you are saying is:
Being forced to recite.
Being forced to listen.
Being forced to put your hands over your ears not to listen, or to leave.
No big deal, right?

Let's turn this around: Why not outlawing all supreme being prayers? That should be fine then. Please don't complain about this idea since that would just be an excuse to be "offended".

What is obvious to me is that prayers at work, school etc are attempts to assert superiority of one's beliefs over the others. And to reduce the others egos to maintain a status quo. There is subtile subliminal message to tell the others they are inferiors in the society.
In this case a certain brand of Christians have been used to have overwhelming majority and needs to get used to more diversity (Catholics, Moslems, Unitarians, Freethinkers, Asian-religions etc...). They are used to Religious sensitivity or choose to ignore it.

Of course you can say that once is no big deal; however one need to consider the effect it has on the social structure (and to individual human beings) when this is done over and over every day and place.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:02 AM   #196
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Freedom is what this country is built on, but at the same time there needs to be the basic respect which holds everything together and in check.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:17 AM   #197
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Joss,
all I can say is that you and Twaddle always bring to mind my Princeton debate coach's admonition.

"Come to any debate armed with factual evidence, masterly elocution, and logical reasoning. You will render the opponent no choice but to resort to emotion, the slippery slope of failure."

As a student of Sun Tzu and Karl von Clausewitz, I see you came overarmed for the contest and need do no more than watch as the opponent struggles to entrap itself further.

One might wonder if the entire post was nothing to do with the OP's original concern, but perhaps a pretext to launch an attack on Southerner's in general.

Again, looking to be offended is a sign of a small education. As an homme de monde, I've seen Muslims in prayer and was not offended, I've seen no beef on menus and was not offended, I've taken my shoes off at the doors of Wats and not been offended, I've sweltered thru the Pope's Mass and not been offended.

Offense should be stored in abundance for the day when attacking people for their religious convictions is upon us. Behold, it is here.

I am and will continue to follow Gautama Buddha's example. Offend no one.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:50 AM   #198
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"What is obvious to me is that prayers at work, school etc are attempts to assert superiority of one's beliefs over the others. And to reduce the others egos to maintain a status quo. There is subtile subliminal message to tell the others they are inferiors in the society."


Subliminal messages...? I see. And what's obvious to me is that I should be a hell of a lot more grateful than I ever realized, that I don't live in paranoic fear of everyone around me.


"Of course you can say that once is no big deal; however one need to consider the effect it has on the social structure (and to individual human beings) when this is done over and over every day and place."


Well... "over and over every day and place" is a powerful lot of blessing. I wouldn't know about that. But I'll say 60 times has been "no big deal".

Course we kaint hardly stand to eat like that (and bless like that) "over and over every day and place." But probly that there "...effect it has on the social structure (and to individual human beings)...." is just lurkin' deadly inside us... waitin' for some godless northern pinko parnoid idjit to stroll by. An I shore do see there's a pack of 'em out thar.

Oops. That just slipped out.
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Old 09-26-2007, 11:14 AM   #199
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Moderators, feel free to remove this thread if you feel it is too controversial...

Yesterday I attended a work lunch. The CEO was present. After our entrees arrived, someone suggested the food be blessed. The CEO then offerred a prayer.

OK, so I am from the north, transplanted here in the deep South. This just would NEVER happen in the north. I just feel it is wrong to assume everyone has the same beliefs and/or impose your beliefs upon them, especially in a work situation. It's not that I'm not religious. However, what if I weren't? What if I was an aetheist, agnostic, or some other religion that wasn't Christian?

I feel there should be a separation of church and work, and that just isn't happenning here at all.
Simple Girl,
After all the comments, what is your opinion?
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Old 09-26-2007, 11:20 AM   #200
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Simple Girl,
After all the comments, what is your opinion?

Perhaps "moderators, please remove this thread if you feel it is too controversial?"
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