Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-25-2007, 07:53 AM   #141
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
How have alleged adults become so close-minded and ignorant that they cannot understand that in a multicultural, multiethnic, multireligion society like ours a compulsory religious ceremony can be offensive to many people forced to attend?
And when did this become compulsory? Don't shift the grounds.
__________________

__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-25-2007, 08:06 AM   #142
Moderator Emeritus
Rich_by_the_Bay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 8,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
And when did this become compulsory? Don't shift the grounds.
It has a compulsory element when you are expected (from a job perspective) to be at a meeting and are presented with the unwelcomed scenario.

Your obsession with the polemics gives the impression that you are ignoring that there are legitimate, relevant arguments on both sides of this original question.
__________________

__________________
Rich
San Francisco Area
ESR'd March 2010. FIRE'd January 2011.

As if you didn't know..If the above message contains medical content, it's NOT intended as advice, and may not be accurate, applicable or sufficient. Don't rely on it for any purpose. Consult your own doctor for all medical advice.
Rich_by_the_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:12 AM   #143
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 207
Good grief.

When was it that saying a blessing at a meal became "the unwelcomed scenario"?
__________________
Can eat with either hand.
Joss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:14 AM   #144
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joss View Post
Good grief.

When was it that saying a blessing at a meal became "the unwelcomed scenario"?
When the boss did it.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:17 AM   #145
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_in_Tampa View Post
It has a compulsory element when you are expected (from a job perspective) to be at a meeting and are presented with the unwelcomed scenario.

Your obsession with the polemics gives the impression that you are ignoring that there are legitimate, relevant arguments on both sides of this original question.
No Rich, it's your view that it's compulsory. You and others have read far too much into the original scenario. You infer that if you walk out the lunch when the CEO says grace that you're career is doomed at the company -- now where is that found in the post. Very polemical, isn't it? So you say it's compulsory. I'm not ignoring your arguments -- I just don't agree with them.
__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:19 AM   #146
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
When the boss did it.
And when no one objected to it! I get it the Boss should have read everyone's mind.
__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:21 AM   #147
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
And when no one objected to it! I get it the Boss should have read everyone's mind.
Drop dead Have a nice life.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:31 AM   #148
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Drop dead Have a nice life.
Wow, way to go Brewer.
__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 08:59 AM   #149
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Texas Proud and Dex, I have a question for you: Do you read your words into the sentences I have written? You claim I change the assumptions of a business lunch at a strip joint -- now all I did was provide greater context, and as I said context is everything. And Dex, read your own posts, you basically say it's wrong to have a lunch at a strip joint in my context because you say it's wrong -- you're the one who brings up strawmen arguments, not me. It's really incredulous to both of you that I support the efforts of a CEO to accommodate the religious views of his employees and, in doing so, you both have painted me as intolerant! And yet you cannot see the intolerance of your own views? Texas Proud, you're really getting silly when you say that religion is not brought into a company function! You don't object, I suppose, to the day off you undoubtedly receive on the 25th of December, or that the New York Stock Exchange is closed on Good Friday -- the Muslims and Jews are probably wondering when on earth will the entire workforce be given a holiday at your company for Yom Kippur or the begining of Rammadan. And the Wiccan wants to know why isn't Earth Day a national holiday. And your office birthday parties are really annoying to the Jehovah Witnesses in your office -- why don't you just do away with them? Yeah, I know you'll all say these are part of our culture and the religious meaning is secondary, like Thanksgiving; yada yada yada!

Yep, your posts are really funny. I cannot tolerate the laughter anymore. And Texax Proud, as you indicated before maybe you don't have to put ya hand on that Bible or some other book in Texas when you get sworn in as a witness in a trial. But when you lose that case and appeal it to the United States Supreme Court, and when you sit down in the Court's spaceous and dignified courtroom to hear your appeal and the 9 justices walk into the courtroom, you'll hear the Clerk say "God save the United States and this Honorable Court." Of course, you have the right not to rise with other members of the audience in the courtroom and walk out in protest of that brief prayer, but I doubt you would. You'll just stew in your chair and think the Justices are so intolerant for that brief acknowledgment of God and it's impostion on everyone else who doesn't believe in God, right?
You definately should take a leadership role on the diversity committee. And don't be afraid to express your views. I think they will be welcomed. Let us know how it turns out.
God Bless
Good Luck
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 09:23 AM   #150
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,005
Since God is all powerful and all knowing, could He create an argument so unfathomable that not even the most intelligent of His creations can understand it?
__________________
justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 09:33 AM   #151
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by justin View Post
Since God is all powerful and all knowing, could He create an argument so unfathomable that not even the most intelligent of His creations can understand it?
Isn't this similar to the George Carlin question "If God is all powerful; can he make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?"
__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 10:08 AM   #152
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by dex View Post
Isn't this similar to the George Carlin question "If God is all powerful; can he make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?"
Pretty much. I don't think George Carlin is the original source of the inquiry into the omnipotence paradox though.
__________________
justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 12:04 PM   #153
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,644
Lets take this all the way back to the beginning and try it from a slightly different perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by simple girl View Post
Yesterday I attended a work lunch. The CEO was present. After our entrees arrived, someone suggested the food be blessed. The CEO then offerred a prayer.
I am the boss and I am an atheist. I have never expressed my views to others and have not experienced any problems on the job. But I suspect that my views would not be well received by top management (after all, everyone says an atheist couldn't get elected to dog catcher in America). Maybe I am over sensitive but maybe not.

Now comes the request for a blessing of the food at our office luncheon. I would probably try to handle that by saying something like, "Sure, lets everyone observe a moment of silence," or some other vague reference. But I would definitely feel awkward and, since I didn't actually offer a blessing, many observers would probably make accurate assessments of the nature of my beliefs. If it was a regular practice to offer blessings I would have to be a hypocrite and participate or I would have to explicitly state that I was uncomfortable with the practice and decline to engage. As for me -- I would not hide me beliefs in these circumstances but in many organizations I would be concerned that they would be (unfairly) held against me.

That situation is fine if you choose to work at a faith based organization but pretty obnoxious in a public company.
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 12:20 PM   #154
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by dex View Post
You definately should take a leadership role on the diversity committee. And don't be afraid to express your views. I think they will be welcomed. Let us know how it turns out.
God Bless
Good Luck
I'm not afraid to stand out in the open for my views. I wouldn't pen an anonymous email to my company if I believed I was wronged, as you suggested here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dex View Post
.

Here is a suggestion - get a Yahoo email account and email the head of the Human Resourses dept with your concern. Tell him you do not feel comfortable giving your name or anyway for them to identify you.
Thanks for the blessing.
__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 12:25 PM   #155
Moderator Emeritus
CuppaJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At The Cafe
Posts: 6,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post

.... a nondemoninational prayer, which does not profess any particular faith -- except the belief in something greater than ourselves -- is only upsetting to an Atheist. So, the Atheist should not be forced to participate in the group prayer -- it's against his religion but should his right to be left alone trump everyone else's.
Huh? As a non-card-carrying atheist (I would not capitalize it), this entire statement rings false! Against what religion? A simple definition of atheist is one who believes neither in god nor an afterlife. Perhaps I'm a low level inept atheist as it does not disturb me to think there are things out there greater than myself.
__________________
CuppaJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 12:52 PM   #156
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 898
Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff View Post
Lets take this all the way back to the beginning and try it from a slightly different perspective


I am the boss and I am an atheist. I have never expressed my views to others and have not experienced any problems on the job. But I suspect that my views would not be well received by top management (after all, everyone says an atheist couldn't get elected to dog catcher in America). Maybe I am over sensitive but maybe not.

Now comes the request for a blessing of the food at our office luncheon.
Well, I'm the boss and the atheist. And here's what I would do because I believe in sticking up for my rights: "I'm uncomfortable with giving this blessing as I'm an atheist and it's against my belief to acknowledge the existence of God. I know that this is not a view shared by many but this is my belief. I hope you will respect my views. So, if someone else wants to give this blessing that would be fine with me. In the future, if blessings are to be given, I won't be present for them."

Or I'm the atheist co-worker who hears about the blessing: I simply excuse myself and go to the restroom or I say the blessing makes me uncomfortable and leave the area.

In these cases, I have been faithful to my principles and yet I have permitted others to be faithful to their principles as well! And if my employer didn't respect my principles here, I'd take appropriate action or find another job. Oh, and those same people used to say that a Catholic could never be elected President in this country let alone a Black Man or Woman. And yes, you're being ultra-sensitive.
__________________
ChrisC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 12:52 PM   #157
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
Wow, way to go Brewer.
I think he's letting you know that he's read enough of your posts to deem you worthy of addition to his "Ignore Poster" list.

While I agree that the original scenario (as proposed over 150 posts ago) is culturally appropriate, I don't care for your methods of discussing the issue. Your repeated pejoratives and condescending comments to the other posters give the impression that you can't strengthen your arguments on their merits and feel entitled to resort to personal attacks.

You have a nice life now.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 12:57 PM   #158
Moderator Emeritus
CuppaJoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: At The Cafe
Posts: 6,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nords View Post

You have a nice life now.
One of my favorite w**k stories involved a Christian! I was happily leaving a job (permanently) for a few months R&R. He said, "Good buy, have a nice life and since its Good Friday, have a nice afterlife."
__________________
CuppaJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 01:02 PM   #159
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuppaJoe View Post
... and since its Good Friday, have a nice afterlife."
Was he suggesting that you should also be crucified, drop dead, and pray for resurrection?!?
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2007, 01:12 PM   #160
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
dex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,105
I think it was the great thinker Anonymous who wrote that a society is judged by how it treats its weakest and most vulnerable.

It is great that so many would speak up against the blessing of the food. However there are many who would not do so out of fear. And I would guess there are many more who would not than would.

I do not believe an employee should have to think of a way to work around the situation. Many might not be able to think up a solution that would not make them feel outside of the group.
__________________

__________________
Sometimes death is not as tragic as not knowing how to live. This man knew how to live--and how to make others glad they were living. - Jack Benny at Nat King Cole's funeral
dex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Blogging-- why would an individual bother? Nords Life after FIRE 36 03-12-2013 10:35 AM
Trying to save MIL's financial life... should I bother? FIREd FIRE and Money 74 07-18-2007 08:37 PM
Why Bother With Stocks? ShokWaveRider FIRE and Money 29 03-27-2006 07:03 AM
Should I bother participating in DB plan? soupcxan Young Dreamers 16 01-24-2006 03:34 PM
Stocks in Retirement: why bother ? renferme FIRE and Money 58 03-18-2005 07:43 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:39 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.