would this bother you?

[tangomonster]

As another transplanted Northerner in the Bible Belt, the prayers before meals came as a shock to me too! (And one of the city courthouses displayed the Ten Commandments, which also wouldn't be done up north---and now we have a Christian mom trying to make sure that school libraries don't contain evil Harry Potter books so kids won't be tempted away from Christianity into witchcraft!).

Since I'm agnostic and an introvert, I can't understand why people need to pray out loud and as a group. It seems like everyone's spirituality and/or relationship with God should be highly individualized and that they should do it on his or her own, privately, but of course, if you're a member of a church, you won't agree with that and will find value in doing it as a group. So I know I'll never understand.

Being FIREd, I no longer have to deal with this at work---but I recently encountered it at our condo complex---before a dinner!

I handle it by starting off by bowing my head initially and looking down, but then as the prayer start, I look around, hoping to catch someone else doing the same (to find another kindred soul, perhaps). So far I haven't succeeded. In general it bothers me less when it's fairly generic. When it becomes Christian, that's when I have an issue with it. Or I would do okay with the Christianity if the next time another world religion would be representated, but of course, that usually doesn't happen, especially in a smallish work or social setting. And when it was tried, look at what happened when the US Senate finally allowed a Hindu to do the morning prayer:

Senate Prayer Led by Hindu Elicits Protest - washingtonpost.com

And look how innocuous the prayer is. There is nothing that should bother anyone---it's just that fundamentalist Christian groups were put off by the fact that a Hindu was saying it since Hinduism is not a monotheistic religion.

 

[saluki9]

Unless there is a hostile work environment. Understanding Workplace Harassment

Hostile work environment harassment occurs when unwelcome comments or conduct based on sex, race or other legally protected characteristics unreasonably interferes with an employee’s work performance or creates an intimidating, hostile or offensive work environment. Anyone in the workplace might commit this type of harassment – a management official, co-worker, or non-employee, such as a contractor, vendor or guest. The victim can be anyone affected by the conduct, not just the individual at whom the offensive conduct is directed.

Not a constitutional right, but a federal law. Various religious practices in the workplace have on occasion been held to constitute a hostile work environment.

I live in the liberal north where religious practices at work just are not done, so I have no personal experience. I think it would make me very uncomfortable but I would let it pass. Some things are just not worth a lawsuit.

Has there ever been a successful case where somebody sued their employer for simply having to listen to a group prayer?

 

[brewer12345]

Has there ever been a successful case where somebody sued their employer for simply having to listen to a group prayer?

Of course not. Such a case would include the fact that unwillingness to participate was a reason that the employee was harassed.

Purely from a pragmatic point of view, as an employer, why on earth would you want to open the door to such a suit?

 

[CuppaJoe]

I'm ok with it unless someone says something like, "there are no atheists in foxholes." Trust me, there are.

I once tried to just stand there respectfully in a Catholic church and not kneel. Someone behind be kept inadvertently bonking me in the head.

I was raised Christian and was later told that I qualify as atheist; but would never define myself as something I am not. I still fondly remember my grandmother's "grace" before meals; all the cousins know it by heart. Last time I was with a family group it had become optional.

 

[Martha]

Has there ever been a successful case where somebody sued their employer for simply having to listen to a group prayer?

Where is an associate when I need one?

One case I remember is where a business broadcast prayers over its PA system during the course of a year. The court found a hostile work environment. A couple times a year prayer probably would not be considered pervasive enough.

 

[Nords]

C'mon, guys, how 'bout a little understanding & tolerance. We all have our own local practices & cultures, even if we don't notice them. This experience was totally appropriate for that region of the country and its culture.

I agree that it wouldn't play very well nationally, but that wasn't the context. I agree that it could offend people of other religious beliefs, but I thought that a big aspect of everyone's religious beliefs was tolerance. Imagine if everyone had to attend at least three other denomination's services before they could profess to be committed to their own. It certainly opened my eyes to corporate religion.

I also agree that a lot of those same people blessing the food so fervently might feel just a tad out of place at a Manhattan bat mitzvah or even a Lutheran prayer breakfast.

As for the workplace environment, again it's totally appropriate for the context. This business is trying to attract customers who feel comfortable that the CEO shares their values, and this is how the business & CEO project that image. It might not play very well in New York or Chicago or LA, but that's not what the business is trying to do. And values from Noo Yawk, Chicawga, 8& Hollywood might not play very well at this breakfast.

You want to see business dissonance? Imagine if family loyalty (pejoratively called nepotism) was at least as important as qualifications & experience. Imagine if most business meetings started 10 minutes late because everyone needed a little extra time to get there, and then the meeting spent the first 20 minutes talking story so that everyone could get caught up on attitudes & feelings. Imagine having your business reputation rest on who you're related to or whether you were born there. Imagine if the only way to say "No thanks" was to repeatedly thank someone profusely for their offer… without ever actually taking them up on it. Imagine [-]no talk stink[/-] if it was impolite to criticise publicly. Imagine if every business construction site had to be blessed by a kahu and all work had to be attended by both an archeologist and another kahu. Imagine if you had to have a blessing ceremony for your company picnic before you could dig it out of the pit. Imagine if crossed arms and a frowny face wasn't defensive body language but rather an indication that the person wasn't allowed to speak freely and thus would not. Imagine if your school principal was obligated to attend a meeting of several hundred alumni and forced to go through ritual ho'oponopono to justify his controversial decision. Imagine if those same alumni marched between two sites, chanting & singing, and brought down the trustees of the world's biggest charitable estate. Welcome to Hawaii.

But at least you didn't have to eat fish paste or accept the honor of being given the goat's eye. I don't think I'm quite ready to adapt to those cultures yet.

 

[ChrisC]

The CEO offered a prayer/blessing at lunch at the suggestion of another employee -- and this warrants condemnation as offending the religious or philosophical sentiments of others, as violating the First Amendment, or, God-forbid, as being entirely inappropriate and in bad taste!

I'm in favor of separating church and state, but I'm also in favor of acknowledging that religion does have a place in our history, our culture, and our values -- though sometimes, quite frankly, organized religion has been on the wrong side of my own moral barometer.

But in this instance, we don't know whether the company headed by the CEO has decided to infuse its own religious values in its workplace, or whether this company expects its employees to have similar values -- there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, especially if the company does not discriminate on the basis of religion. Two of my favorite retail chains aren't open on Sundays for religious reasons -- should we get upset about that because they are sending a religious message to us and we can't purchase grocery items or chicken sandwiches from them on Sunday?

Regarding this church and state issue, I remember, as a five-year old child, being forced to stand-up and listen to a public school teacher recite a Christian prayer the first thing every morning in a class funded by our tax dollars in New York City. There's definitely something wrong, in my view, with that scenario, but a company CEO blessing the food at lunch before grown adults at the suggestion of another grown adult doesn't strike me as something that the most ardent defenders of the First Amendment would think objectionable.

 

[Fireup2020]

I wouldn't care if "the prayer" was led by a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindi, Jewish, or Christian (and whatever denomination I failed to list) individual. Nor would I care if there was no prayer. I have more important things to concern myself with - and do not feel any religious pressure if someone is discussing their religion - or lack thereof. My beliefs are mine and someone yakking about theirs is not going to make me jump ship! That so many are "offended" is more bothersome than the triggering actions to me.

 

[ajs56]

I don't understand what the problem is. It wouldn't bother me at all. I'm not religious, but I'm also not "religiophobic". When in Rome...

 

[bosco]

I agree it's totally inappropriate. But not worth a fuss.

At times like this, I pretend I am an anthropologist observing a primitive rite (maybe not that far from the truth). I stand respectfully and watch it all wide-eyed, and try to understand what it all means. I'll let you know when I figure it out.

I'm still waiting for someone to ask me why my eyes weren't closed during the prayer....like how did they know?

 

[Sue J]

I had no idea there were so many who felt the same way about these kinds of things. I'm an atheist and I let other people do what they want, even when I think it's not entirely appropriate. I'm just not one to confront others on their religious practices. My personal policy is that I will never pretend to pray, just to please other people. So on the rare occasion that I have been in a religious atmosphere, I sit politely and respectfully while others bow their heads, kneel, make a cross, daven ....whatever. But I always keep my head up straight, and I give a polite smile.

 

[ChrisC]

I agree it's totally inappropriate. But not worth a fuss.

Why is it totally inappropriate? I don't know the entire context of the lunch or the company, and for anyone to say it's totally inappropriate, seems to me to be totally inappropriate, as well. I'm just trying to figure out why the people who feel offended appear to be offended simply because there are people who practice their religion on their sleeves!

 

[simple girl]

Thanks for the interesting discussion and viewpoints, and a few laughs, too!

No, I have no plans for legal action - never even crossed my mind! I didn't raise a fuss or lose sleep over it.

I just really was surprised that it happenned. I wanted to see if this is a common occurence. I guess it is here in the south. I still don't think it's appropriate, but it's nothing I'm going to make a big deal out of, nor would I confront anyone about it. I like bosco's suggestion of how he views it; this is an interesting observation of a different culture.

 

[haha]

I had no idea there were so many who felt the same way about these kinds of things. I'm an atheist and I let other people do what they want, even when I think it's not entirely appropriate. I'm just not one to confront others on their religious practices. My personal policy is that I will never pretend to pray, just to please other people. So on the rare occasion that I have been in a religious atmosphere, I sit politely and respectfully while others bow their heads, kneel, make a cross, daven ....whatever. But I always keep my head up straight, and I give a polite smile.

I mostly agree with how you have put it. However, I do pretend to pray, as well as pretend a lot of other things. Actually, I don't need to pretend- I know about praying even if I usually forget to do it in my normal life. In a certain mood, I enjoy pretending as it gives me a bit of a vacation from from my normally boring self. Anyway, you never know when you will experience something in a different way from your habitual ways; and that is a gift.

Ha

 

[justin]

While we are on the subject of praying, here's a little helpful tip for those still working. When you get caught literally asleep on the job at work, don't open your eyes immediately upon being woken up. Wait a few seconds, mumble something under your breath, then loudly proclaim, "Amen!". Then open your eyes. As long as you weren't snoring big time, your boss should think you were just concluding a lengthy prayer. And bosses don't have the audacity to infringe on your right to say a little prayer to get you through the day, do they? (taken from experience working with state Department of Transportation staff)

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

Of course, its real purpose is to remind everyone of their place in the power structure.

bingo. whether at a business lunch or a city hall meeting, the invocation is--by simply the action of its own ceremony--hegemonic in nature, setting up hierarchy to be accepted by the group and imbuing power to the dais.

i also take the stance of anthropologic observation whether watching public prayer or public mutilation or public masterbation. i don't see much of a difference between any of it.

 

[youbet]

Anyway, you never know when you will experience something in a different way from your habitual ways; and that is a gift.

Ha

Absolutely! While not deeply spiritual myself, I do enjoy watching others, of various faiths, participate in their rituals/pagents/practices/ceremonies. I'm really glad there is variety in this world.

 

[bright eyed]

Has there ever been a successful case where somebody sued their employer for simply having to listen to a group prayer?

funny thing is you'd have to hold your hand over a bible to testify in court...

for everyone else, i'll pray for your soul...

 

[tangomonster]

Absolutely! While not deeply spiritual myself, I do enjoy watching others, of various faiths, participate in their rituals/pagents/practices/ceremonies. I'm really glad there is variety in this world.

I agree with this and I also liked the comment about observing it as an interesting anthropological observation similar to that which Nords was posted about the Hawaiian culture. I also know that I can be a bit of a hypocrite about being fascinated by Eastern cultures (such as Buddhism and Hinduism) and intolerant of Christianity. Some of it is that the Eastern are less known to me and less common, hence more exotic (I remember one time talking to a Unitarian minister about my interest in Eastern religions---she suggested that I first get more in touch with JudeoChristian religious history and practice since that is more my actual heritage and what is predominant in the culture---this was highly unusual from a Unitarian Universalist minister, but I did see her point). But I think my greater comfort level with these is that they don't prosthelytize (I had a friend who worked for a Japanese company and there was no attempt at conversion or even celebration of Buddhism or Shintoism) and, at least in this country (but I think this is true of India as well which tolerates all religions).) Whereas in the South, there is a definite lack of tolerance for "nonbelievers" (i.e. nonChristians).

I do admire those of you who have a live and let live philosophy, and who don't let it bother you even if it's not your type of prayer. And I agree that an attitude of gratitude is always nice, so saying grace per se for a meal is actually a positive thing (although I don't understand completely who is being thanked and why---because it seems to me that these people doing the prayer believe that God has infinite wisdom and has a plan for all people, so therefore if he chooses for you not to have food, then it seems like it should be accepted with grace since it's part of his plan and shouldn't be questioned or complained about). But it's the lack of inclusion that gets to me. True, the South does have more Christians, especially Southern Baptists, than other areas---but most metropolitan/suburban areas do have plenty of nonChristians, so I think people should at least be careful about keeping it generic and not Christian.

 

[bosco]

Why is it totally inappropriate? I don't know the entire context of the lunch or the company, and for anyone to say it's totally inappropriate, seems to me to be totally inappropriate, as well.

Well, I think the above remark is totally inappropriate. So we now have the possibility of an infinite regression of inappropriateness!! Somehow appropriate.....(Greg--new system of logic?)

I'm just trying to figure out why the people who feel offended appear to be offended simply because there are people who practice their religion on their sleeves!

Well, some people can't figure out why women are offended at work when people remark how sexy they look either.

Religion is a private matter. Flouncing it in public in the workplace creates an embarrassing situation for those who do not wish to partake. Perhaps even the feeling that there may be retaliation if they are too public about not wishing to partake.

IMO, regardless of the legal issues, it's just plain rude, insensitive, and disrespectful of the feelings of some.

 

[flipstress]

While we are on the subject of praying, here's a little helpful tip for those still working. When you get caught literally asleep on the job at work, don't open your eyes immediately upon being woken up. Wait a few seconds, mumble something under your breath, then loudly proclaim, "Amen!". Then open your eyes. As long as you weren't snoring big time, your boss should think you were just concluding a lengthy prayer.

justin, your prayer was hilarious, and this tip could work for me, except that I sometimes talk, moan, groan, sing, or laugh in my sleep.

I don't know how my boss would take the "Amen!" after any embarrassing noise that I emit. Oh well, I'll let him know that you never can tell what amazing sounds one can make when possessed by spirit.

 

[SecondCor521]

To whomever mentioned separation of church and state and the First Amendment, that only applies to government, not private industry. By the use of the term "CEO" I assume that it was not a government function.

As Martha correctly points out, something like this would fall under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, as amended, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of, among other things, religion. Under the "hostile work environment" theory, according to the EEOC, "The conduct has to be unwelcome and offensive, and has to be severe or pervasive." I was surprised in my business law class to read of examples of alleged discrimination that failed to reach the "severe or pervasive" standard but in my mind were offensive enough to deserve prosecution under the law. Based on those examples, along with my rigorous legal training, would lead me to say that the OP's experience wouldn't have much of a chance in a civil rights lawsuit.

Personally it wouldn't bother me, but I can see how it would bother other folks so I would object on their behalf. Unless the organization is religious in nature, like the Salvation Army or something, I don't really think it's appropriate.

2Cor521

 

[CuppaJoe]

Unless the organization is religious in nature, like the Salvation Army or something, I don't really think it's appropriate.

Reminds me of a brief stint I had working at the Roman Catholic Diocese. I'm not Catholic but I quickly learned that when a nun asked me where I lived, she didn't mean which neighborhood, but which parish. There were small shrines opposite the elevators so that every time an elevator door opened, I almost crossed myself.

 

[maddythebeagle]

I would welcome a prayer in any religion to guide our organization before a meeting...We could certainly use it....

Any religious rituals would never offend me, but as a frugal person [-]cheap bastard[/-] the constant envelope passing around for donations at my work for gifts does offend me..

 

[ChrisC]

Well, I think the above remark is totally inappropriate. So we now have the possibility of an infinite regression of inappropriateness!! Somehow appropriate.....(Greg--new system of logic?)



Well, some people can't figure out why women are offended at work when people remark how sexy they look either.

Religion is a private matter. Flouncing it in public in the workplace creates an embarrassing situation for those who do not wish to partake. Perhaps even the feeling that there may be retaliation if they are too public about not wishing to partake.

IMO, regardless of the legal issues, it's just plain rude, insensitive, and disrespectful of the feelings of some.

Your logic appears totally, totally inappropriate, too.

Well, you're right, I can't figure out why anyone is offended at work by a remark that someone might be dressed nicely on a given day! Let's not shift the subject -- we all know that sexual comments are inappropriate. But religion.

Since when is your idea that religion is a private matter, the norm for everyone to follow -- that's pretty intolerant of you, much the same as me saying that everyone should only express their religious beliefs in private and never at the work place -- why don't you just ban me from wearing any religious garb or emblems of my faith at the work place -- it might offend someone!

I happen to agree with privately praying and worshipping out of the public eye. But if someone wants to wear a cross, star of david or religious headware, why should I impose my private religious practices on that person? Or if someone want another to say a prayer at the cafeteria table before they eat lunch, why should your views dominate the wishes of others?

It's not rude and insensitive for anyone to profess their faith in front of the world, including at the workplace; it's rude and insensitive for you to demand that they not do that -- a little tolerance would be nice; maybe, next time when it's Ash Wednesday, you ought to tell all those Catholics to wipe away their forehead markings when they come back to work after noon-time service!