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Old 05-23-2011, 07:23 PM   #81
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Much of the "divorce the pig now" crowd seems to feel that no candy at all is better than candy shared. Or alternatively that they are so attractive that they can come up with another without a lot of downtime. I think that this is just one more ymmv, or circumstances shape choices situation.

Just as a thought experiment, who is cheating their spouse more, a loving, physically and emotionally generous mate who perhaps goes outside at times, or a denying, sour, unhappy person who would "never cheat". Admittedly, these are extremes, but certainly not unknown.

Ha
Ha, I love these extremes--so funny.

This thread is very interesting and the topic is pretty complex--the situation and decision would be different for everyone. For me, though, I know I would leave a spouse who cheated because it would break my heart and I know I would never get over it, so better to leave and let both of us move along.
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:12 PM   #82
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How about the death do us part business? Looks like these vows are mostly pretty words, like most vows.
I couldn't agree more, which is why I am somewhat amused at societal attitudes. We condemn adultery, yet we condone divorce. We use words such as "pig" to describe people (really only men) who cheat, yet we do not use those same words to describe people who divorce. Both groups forsake their so-called sacred vows. And before anyone says anything, the primary reasons for divorce are "fluff" reasons such as "we grew apart."

So I don't understand why we don't have the same tolerance for adultery as we do for divorce. If that's what you want to do, who are other people to criticize? If it feels good, do it. One could even argue, "What right does Maria have to tell Arnold what he can do with his own body? Does she control him? Is he supposed to obey her?" OK, I don't really believe this. I have little tolerance for either adultery or divorce. I believe a commitment is a commitment. But I am puzzled by the inconsistency.

I admit that I don't know the details, nor do I really care, but I do know that it takes two to tango. Isn't Arnold's housekeeper equally guilty? Isn't she the despicable pig that he is?
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Old 05-24-2011, 12:32 AM   #83
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I am going to deviate from the basic question here and ponder DSK's legal situation. As I mentioned earlier unless the allegations are way off base and the evidence doesn't support the evidence he is in a pickle if this goes to a jury. In some situations, particularly in other countries, the perp can settle financially with the victim. He (or his wife) are certainly in a position to do that but I am not convinced that the prosecutor will allow that.

If the victim agreed to a large sum for damages and DSK agreed to never set foot in the USA again would that be just?

Based on the information released to date, assuming that it is correct and you are DSK's attorney, what would be your strategy?
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:58 AM   #84
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I wouldn't try the "buy off the victim" strategy in the US, but I agree that it has worked, with Michael Jackson and other celebs.
As a US resident, I don't know that I'd care whether he set foot in the US again. What would that do, make our housekeepers safe while the rest of the world's housekeepers cower in hallways, fearful of his advances?
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:06 AM   #85
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Much of the "divorce the pig now" crowd seems to feel that no candy at all is better than candy shared. Or alternatively that they are so attractive that they can come up with another without a lot of downtime. I think that this is just one more ymmv, or circumstances shape choices situation.

Just as a thought experiment, who is cheating their spouse more, a loving, physically and emotionally generous mate who perhaps goes outside at times, or a denying, sour, unhappy person who would "never cheat". Admittedly, these are extremes, but certainly not unknown.

Ha

Does it matter at what level the spouse is cheating

I think both examples are reasons to get divorced... not pick which one to keep....
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:12 AM   #86
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Assuming conviction or a plea agreement he will have a felony record, eventually he will be free to prey on women. I would like to protect all women from that behavior but, at best, all that can be done is to prevent him from returning to the US and acting out here.

It still would be possible for him to return on a diplomatic passport but I don't think either the UN or French authorities would be anxious to do that as any plea agreement would require him to describe his felonious acts to the Judge, in public.
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:37 AM   #87
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I couldn't agree more, which is why I am somewhat amused at societal attitudes. We condemn adultery, yet we condone divorce. We use words such as "pig" to describe people (really only men) who cheat, yet we do not use those same words to describe people who divorce. Both groups forsake their so-called sacred vows. And before anyone says anything, the primary reasons for divorce are "fluff" reasons such as "we grew apart."

So I don't understand why we don't have the same tolerance for adultery as we do for divorce. If that's what you want to do, who are other people to criticize? If it feels good, do it. One could even argue, "What right does Maria have to tell Arnold what he can do with his own body? Does she control him? Is he supposed to obey her?" OK, I don't really believe this. I have little tolerance for either adultery or divorce. I believe a commitment is a commitment. But I am puzzled by the inconsistency.

I admit that I don't know the details, nor do I really care, but I do know that it takes two to tango. Isn't Arnold's housekeeper equally guilty? Isn't she the despicable pig that he is?
To me the difference is that one party broke the contract... and we do not require the other person to honor their part of a contract if the other party broke it.... now, if you think that 'a commitment is a commitment' then go right ahead and stay married.... but what if this person was cheating all the time and in front of you, your friends and your family Would you stand for this? Would you continue with your commitment? What if in addition to the above your spouse also not only spent all your money, but ran up $250,000 in debt Are you still committed?

Things change and people adjust to those changes... I made a commitment to my wife, but in exchange for some commitments from her side... I will not let it be a one way street....
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Old 05-24-2011, 09:40 AM   #88
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I am going to deviate from the basic question here and ponder DSK's legal situation. As I mentioned earlier unless the allegations are way off base and the evidence doesn't support the evidence he is in a pickle if this goes to a jury. In some situations, particularly in other countries, the perp can settle financially with the victim. He (or his wife) are certainly in a position to do that but I am not convinced that the prosecutor will allow that.

If the victim agreed to a large sum for damages and DSK agreed to never set foot in the USA again would that be just?

Based on the information released to date, assuming that it is correct and you are DSK's attorney, what would be your strategy?

I think it would be hard to get a conviction if the victim refused to testify... heck, it probably will be hard to get a conviction with the victim testifying....

Money can change the mind of the victim.... I think it is probably being pursued....
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Old 05-24-2011, 12:06 PM   #89
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Money can change the mind of the victim.......
If this were not true, we would no longer have the NBA.

Ha
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Old 05-24-2011, 12:07 PM   #90
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Yesterday I listened to a podcast of an interview with a female French journalist (As it Happens, CBC, May 19th). She noted that in France, propositioning someone at work would not be regarded as sexual harassment; powerful men like DSK get a lot more sympathy ("it's not fair, poor guy, he just likes women"), and that the previous sexual history of the victim would be admissible as evidence in court. As a result, it is rare for French women to bring charges against sexual predators or harassers. In her view, the charges brought by the maid are groundbreaking. Clearly feminists in France are hoping for a change in the culture; why else would the IMF staff be openly lobbying for a female replacement? The front runner is Christine Lagarde, France's current finance minister.
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Old 05-24-2011, 01:51 PM   #91
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Sounds like the US in the 50s & early 60s.
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Old 05-24-2011, 01:56 PM   #92
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I recently attended a wedding where the female went after a long time married male, broke up the marriage and they were married less than a year later. It was hard listening to the vows "till death do us part" - all I could think of was "until something better comes along".

The kids on both sides were heartbroken- two broke down in tears during the ceremony, as they could see the pain in the left behind spouses who were blindsided when these two began a torrid love affair and just walked out on their current families- I thought it was an awfully high price to pay.
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Old 05-24-2011, 01:57 PM   #93
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If this were not true, we would no longer have the NBA.

Ha

I can not understand your reference... can you explain
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:43 PM   #94
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I can not understand your reference... can you explain
Come on man, do you follow sports? How many accusations of rape or abuse have miraculously disappeared? Of course this may have part of the "young ladies" design all along. Nothing like the possibility of 15 years in prison to loosen a guy's wallet.

Ha
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:45 PM   #95
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I don't care for speculation about a sexual assault victim's possibility for profit, I'll be honest. I think about the prospect of being assaulted by a person in my workplace or otherwise to be a horrifying prospect, regardless of the potential settlement value.

Think if this was your sister, daughter, granddaughter.

Not to say that it doesn't happen, maybe in the sports stories you mention.
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:48 PM   #96
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Come on man, do you follow sports? How many accusations of rape or abuse have miraculously disappeared? Of course this may have part of the "young ladies" design all along. Nothing like the possibility of 15 years in prison to loosen a guy's wallet.

Ha
I sort of remember some headline or something with Kobe Bryan but never paid attention. I didn't realize it was wide-spread. Aren't they on strike or lockout or something now?

I did eat dinner a table over from that tall dude from the Timberwolves once. I didn't want to bother him and I think everyone else in the restaurant felt the same. Kevin Garnett?
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:52 PM   #97
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We can judge all we want but unfortunately we can only guess as to what the TRUE story is, from BOTH SIDES. Women file for divorce almost 66% of the time........and its not always about an affair........
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Old 05-24-2011, 02:59 PM   #98
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Um, okay. Thanks for the story, Ha. It contributes greatly to my understanding of sexual exploitation. I don't think we have these "pressure groups" where I live, though.
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Old 05-24-2011, 03:00 PM   #99
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I don't care for speculation about a sexual assault victim's possibility for profit, I'll be honest. I think about the prospect of being assaulted by a person in my workplace or otherwise to be a horrifying prospect, regardless of the potential settlement value.

Think if this was your sister, daughter, granddaughter.

Not to say that it doesn't happen, maybe in the sports stories you mention.
Agree with you completely, but first we should be sure that there was in fact a sexual assault. A knee jerk stampede to that is unfair and often enough likely to be erroneous.

In this DSK case, assault does appear at this point to be the best guess, but we actually do not know and I find it offensive to convict the guy before the facts can even come to light.

Ha
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Old 05-24-2011, 03:09 PM   #100
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Come on man, do you follow sports? How many accusations of rape or abuse have miraculously disappeared? Of course this may have part of the "young ladies" design all along. Nothing like the possibility of 15 years in prison to loosen a guy's wallet.

Ha
Well, I have not been following the NBA for some years now... so I have not been paying attention... but I do agree that it can loosen up a guy's wallet..
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