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Old 05-24-2011, 03:50 PM   #101
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As a result, it is rare for French women to bring charges against sexual predators or harassers. In her view, the charges brought by the maid are groundbreaking. Clearly feminists in France are hoping for a change in the culture;
I think that the threshold of what constitute "sexual harassment" is higher in France than it is in North America. For one thing, French men and women are much more "flirtatious".

While attending graduate school in the US, I had 2 French women in my class and of course we spent a lot of time together. It took no more than 2 weeks for rumors of "menage a trois" to surface. I was really surprised, but seen from the American perspective, there was just too much physical closeness and knowing glances for a platonic relationship. The French women's flirtatiousness also landed them in hot waters with American men on several occasions.

I understand why the feminists would want to sterilize the culture. But I think women could have much to lose from the sterilization process. The seductive power of French women is well known, to themselves particularly.
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Old 05-24-2011, 03:58 PM   #102
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I think that the threshold of what constitute "sexual harassment" is higher in France than it is in North America. For one thing, French men and women are much more "flirtatious".
I was eating lunch in Seattle in a French resaurant where the tables were so close that patrons were almost in one another's laps. An older French woman living in America as it turned out leaned over toward me and said, "You are a very beautiful man." She could not have been referring to my well worn features, and she went on to explain that my kindness and love were showing through. I took this not as flirting, but as being warmly open to the world and unafraid that she would be misunderstood.

Talk about a lift! I think that we in America are losing a lot by being so "private", but then when I read here I see that many people prefer this.

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I understand why the feminists would want to sterilize the culture. But I think women could have much to lose from the sterilization process. The seductive power of French women is well known, to themselves particularly.
In this vein, something I find hilarious is when a typically feminist American woman takes up dancing with Latins. Often suddenly she adores being treated as a sex object.

Ha
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:09 PM   #103
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I was eating lunch in Seattle in a French resaurant where the tables were so close that patrons were almost in one another's laps. An older French woman living in America as it turned out leaned over toward me and said, "You are a very beautiful man." She could not have been referring to my well worn features, and she went on to explain that my kindness and love were showing through. I took this not as flirting, but as being warmly open to the world and unafraid that she would be misunderstood.


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Sounds like a great lunch!
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:17 PM   #104
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I think that the threshold of what constitute "sexual harassment" is higher in France than it is in North America. For one thing, French men and women are much more "flirtatious".

While attending graduate school in the US, I had 2 French women in my class and of course we spent a lot of time together. It took no more than 2 weeks for rumors of "menage a trois" to surface. I was really surprised, but seen from the American perspective, there was just too much physical closeness and knowing glances for a platonic relationship. The French women's flirtatiousness also landed them in hot waters with American men on several occasions.

I understand why the feminists would want to sterilize the culture. But I think women could have much to lose from the sterilization process. The seductive power of French women is well known, to themselves particularly.

Reminds me of when I was working in London... the place I had came with a maid.... one of my sisters was staying over for vacation and one day when I came home she asked 'So, why did you not tell me you had a French maid?'...

WELL, because I did not KNOW!!! I had never seen who was doing the work... sometimes you miss an opportunity...
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Old 05-24-2011, 06:12 PM   #105
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Something is logically amiss here. I might marry a cheater without realizing it, but a denying, sour, unhappy person would have trouble keeping those traits secret long enough to get me to the altar Everybody is those things now and then....Ya gotta know where their reset switch is

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who is cheating their spouse more, a loving, physically and emotionally generous mate who perhaps goes outside at times, or a denying, sour, unhappy person who would "never cheat".

Ha
In a related vein, I am in the crowd that raises a skeptical eyebrow at "We Grew Apart" as an actual reason to break vows. "Well, Get Busy and Grow Back Together, You Pair of Wimps" is my knee-jerk reaction

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Old 05-24-2011, 07:17 PM   #106
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I am going to deviate from the basic question here and ponder DSK's legal situation. As I mentioned earlier unless the allegations are way off base and the evidence doesn't support the evidence he is in a pickle if this goes to a jury. In some situations, particularly in other countries, the perp can settle financially with the victim. He (or his wife) are certainly in a position to do that but I am not convinced that the prosecutor will allow that.

If the victim agreed to a large sum for damages and DSK agreed to never set foot in the USA again would that be just?

Based on the information released to date, assuming that it is correct and you are DSK's attorney, what would be your strategy?
I am going to take a completely contrarian view to the DSK issue. I believe DSK is only guilty of a cultural faux paux. I believe he came on strong like most men in most cultures around the world. He most likely have done this a dozens of time. I believe he fondled her without her consent and for those who have never left the US, this is common place around the world if a man is alone with a woman. I do not believe for a minute he forced her to perform oral sex because I personally don't see how a 62 year old man without a weapon can possibly force me to do oral sex. Even with his hands around my throat, I would bite where the sun doesn't shine until he drops to his knees.
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:58 PM   #107
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Come on man, do you follow sports? How many accusations of rape or abuse have miraculously disappeared? Of course this may have part of the "young ladies" design all along. Nothing like the possibility of 15 years in prison to loosen a guy's wallet.

Ha
Actually, while following the Duke LaCrosse case, I read that a fairly high percentage of rape accusations are false. I have certainly read or heard about cases where women use this as a weapon to get back at a man, for financial gain, etc. I think this country has gone far to the extreme where a man cannot defend himself in court when it comes to rape. My understanding is that the only "proof" required is woman's word so if a jury believes her, the man is toast. A man cannot even use a woman's past history to defend himself in court.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:45 PM   #108
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Actually, while following the Duke LaCrosse case, I read that a fairly high percentage of rape accusations are false. I have certainly read or heard about cases where women use this as a weapon to get back at a man, for financial gain, etc. I think this country has gone far to the extreme where a man cannot defend himself in court when it comes to rape. My understanding is that the only "proof" required is woman's word so if a jury believes her, the man is toast. A man cannot even use a woman's past history to defend himself in court.
We are 100% in agreement. I must not have been expressing myself well.

In America, it would make life easier to be gay.

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Old 05-24-2011, 10:28 PM   #109
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Actually, while following the Duke LaCrosse case, I read that a fairly high percentage of rape accusations are false. I have certainly read or heard about cases where women use this as a weapon to get back at a man, for financial gain, etc. I think this country has gone far to the extreme where a man cannot defend himself in court when it comes to rape. My understanding is that the only "proof" required is woman's word so if a jury believes her, the man is toast. A man cannot even use a woman's past history to defend himself in court.
In the 1997 sexual assault trial of TV sports journalist Marv Albert, the court ruled that it was legal for the prosecution to use his sexual history against him but illegal for his lawyers to use her sexual history to support his defense.

There are not many reliable studies on false rape accusations. One of the most widely cited articles is that of Eugene Kanin (False Rape Allegations, Archives of Sexual Behavior, 1994). In his study Kanin found that about 41% of rape accusations in a small midwestern city were false. In this case false meant that the police believed that a rape did not occur and the complaintant admitted that a rape did not occur. Kanin was actually more interested in the reasons for false accusations. The need for attention, the need for an alibi, and revenge were popular motives. There is also the McDowell study from the Air Force Office of Special Investigations that investigated 556 rape allegations. It found that 220 allegations were true, 80 were false, and 256 were inconclusive. Some studies find smaller percentages (e.g., 5-10% or so). Needless to say, there is a lot of bias and political correctness in this type of research. The often quoted 2% number has no basis (it was made up). I believe the FBI estimates that about 10% of rape allegations are "unfounded." This estimate may be somewhat conservative due to the strict definition of "unfounded." If I had to guess, I would say that the true percentage is about 20-25%.
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:45 PM   #110
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Most of those allegations were made by women who had a previous relationship with the accused. I don't think that this circumstance fits those at all.

I looked at the NYT graphic that included a plan of the suite and the time line, this happened over a period of about a half an hour which includes time spent by the housekeeper cleaning the dining and living areas. She immediately related her experience to co-workers, the only lag was the time her employer took to notify the police. They doubtless knew what was likely to ensue and needed to assure themselves that it was an event for the police.

The totality of the circumstances does not support a specious claim IMHO.
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:09 AM   #111
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I do not believe for a minute he forced her to perform oral sex because I personally don't see how a 62 year old man without a weapon can possibly force me to do oral sex. Even with his hands around my throat, I would bite where the sun doesn't shine until he drops to his knees.
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I intended to quote post 99 but your comment says it better. I have not followed the DSK case closely so maybe I have missed something important. That said, there is NO possible way a man can FORCE a woman to perform oral sex on him, it is just not possible tho a pistol aimed at her head would make it possible.
If either of you were honest in your voire dire answers the judge would bar you from the jury -- and rightly so. Impossible? You don't believe some young kid could be quaking in her boots as some big, gross old man she never met before forces her head into his lap? Just because you might fight doesn't mean everyone would fight. It is possible that it was not DSK's intent to force himself on the woman. But impossible that it was? Ridiculous.

Try an equivalent situation - jailhouse oral rape. In many cases the victim is beaten into submission but in others terror of the consequences of refusal is all it takes. Would you call the terrified victims volunteers?
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:03 AM   #112
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...for those who have never left the US, this is common place around the world if a man is alone with a woman.
Bull ..

I've worked in several foreign countries (and in fact, in France where I had a French boss - who spent a lot of time in the U.S. and would not pull this, and I had a small staff of French folks - some of whom were female.)

I can assure you that this is not "normal" in a cultural sense. If you have traveled/worked and spent a lot of time in places outside the US, you would know as such.

I'm not saying that (any) person - man or women (especially the gals in France that had a candle in their van - those of us who spent any time there understand the reference), but to broad-brush something just upon "assumed culture" is a lot of BS...

While the French (or any other culture) may be more "acceptable" of an affair outside a marriage, they frown upon forceable rape (which in this case, the details are yet to be confirmed). But to tag any culture as "anything goes" is completely wrong...
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:18 AM   #113
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To answer the question - "Would you stay in a marriage if your spouse cheated?"

No - because marriage, for me, denotes "sacred trust," and once that is gone, it is gone.
+1

Unequivocably, no.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:21 AM   #114
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I intended to quote post 99 but your comment says it better. I have not followed the DSK case closely so maybe I have missed something important. That said, there is NO possible way a man can FORCE a woman to perform oral sex on him, it is just not possible tho a pistol aimed at her head would make it possible. It's safe to assume DSK did not have a pistol as I have not heard that he did. So I am supposed to believe he forced the maid to perform oral sex then she fled the room gagging and spitting?

What man in his right mind would risk forcing his penis into a woman's mouth? Does she have no teeth? What about his testicles? One squeeze or punch would render him incapable not to mention a vicious bite! Something stinks here and I think the maid was ok with the act knowing she could nail his a$$ to the wall and get rich too after the fact. Sorta like Lewensky saving that blue dress huh?

I don't condone what DSK did but I can't see how the maid's story holds water.


Well, I have to disagree with you... not all women are strong willed and would fight their way out of a bad situation... some will do whatever is asked hoping that at the end they are OK...


I know it is not the legal definition of rape, but I knew one lady who thought that if her husband 'forced' himself on her by whatever means then he 'raped' her... even if she did not say 'no'...
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:37 AM   #115
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If either of you were honest in your voire dire answers the judge would bar you from the jury -- and rightly so. Impossible? You don't believe some young kid could be quaking in her boots as some big, gross old man she never met before forces her head into his lap? Just because you might fight doesn't mean everyone would fight. It is possible that it was not DSK's intent to force himself on the woman. But impossible that it was? Ridiculous.

Try an equivalent situation - jailhouse oral rape. In many cases the victim is beaten into submission but in others terror of the consequences of refusal is all it takes. Would you call the terrified victims volunteers?
It seems unless one considers every single situation possible vs addressing the exact topic being discussed someone will ask how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! Please!

I/we/in this specific case am/are/we are not discussing a child or teenager. This woman is in her 30's, this is an adult woman and she surely knows how to disable or mutilate a man. There is a difference between a child and an adult. Isn't that clear? Additionally, prison rape is a completely different scenario with grave if not deadly reprisal against the victim should he do what I mention.

Now sometimes an adult woman would be fearful if she attacked the man and she would co operate. My point is that the man is taking a huge risk forcing himself upon someone who is in a potential position to do serious harm to him. It is for that reason I question just how much force was involved vs co operation and then using the situation for personal gain of some type.

I hope most people here understand this since at least one doesn't. I hope my point is now clear.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:20 AM   #116
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Force need not be physical. Think of the authority gradient between a world figure and an immigrant maid.

When I was a student, my parents specifically vetoed all hotel chambermaid jobs for exactly this reason.
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:11 PM   #117
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Force need not be physical. Think of the authority gradient between a world figure and an immigrant maid.

When I was a student, my parents specifically vetoed all hotel chambermaid jobs for exactly this reason.
To leave rape and the news for a moment, this morning I was looking in my files for a former board members name, and I ran across a spreadsheet that I made from an ER.org poll asking members not about their attitudes toward marital fidelity, but their actual performance in that area. The poll separated men's and women's responses. In each case, 21% reported that they had in fact been "unfaithful". There were a total of 121 respondents, 1/3 women and 2/3 men.

I am not good at searching the board, so I cannot report any more than this.

Ha
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:40 PM   #118
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It seems unless one considers every single situation possible vs addressing the exact topic being discussed someone will ask how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! Please!

I/we/in this specific case am/are/we are not discussing a child or teenager. This woman is in her 30's, this is an adult woman and she surely knows how to disable or mutilate a man.
From my perspective a 30 YO woman is a kid. Regardless, it is still ridiculous for you to assert that it is impossible that a mature woman of whatever age could be intimidated into oral sex by a guy who surprises her while cleaning a hotel room? And how would she be expected to be braver than a mature, male felon terrified in his jail cell? As I asked earlier, would you call that guy a volunteer?
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:42 PM   #119
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From my perspective a 30 YO woman is a kid. Regardless, it is still ridiculous for you to assert that it is impossible that a mature woman of whatever age could be intimidated into oral sex by a guy who surprises her while cleaning a hotel room? And how would she be expected to be braver than a mature, male felon terrified in his jail cell? As I asked earlier, would you call that guy a volunteer?
I am a female and I will reiterate that we should take what DSK's accuser said with a grain of salt. It is very hard indeed for a 62 year old man without a weapon to force or command a female to perform oral sex. This woman is not a push over. She is a refugee survivor from one of the toughest parts of the world. I was not cultivated to be tough and yet I don't see how I can be persuaded to do this without the threat of death or violence and presumably no such thing occurred in this situation. I smell a big rat.
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Old 05-25-2011, 05:45 PM   #120
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I am a female and I will reiterate that we should take what DSK's accuser said with a grain of salt. It is very hard indeed for a 62 year old man without a weapon to force or command a female to perform oral sex. This woman is not a push over. She is a refugee survivor from one of the toughest parts of the world. I was not cultivated to be tough and yet I don't see how I can be persuaded to do this without the threat of death or violence and presumably no such thing occurred in this situation. I smell a big rat.
Fair enough on both highlighted assertions. I don't object to your doubts. I just objected to blanket statements that it would be impossible for someone to intimidate a grown woman into oral sex. I doubt it would be extremely difficult to scare a lot of men or women into complying.
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