Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-07-2006, 08:56 AM   #1
Recycles dryer sheets
tomz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 251
Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Since most discussions on Universal Healthcare eventually have someone talking about socialism and the lengthy wait times in Canada, this article sheds some light on some other alternatives.
__________________

__________________
tomz is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-07-2006, 12:23 PM   #2
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

I copied this from the article:

"How do these non-single-payer nations provide such excellent care? These nations employ a system that blends a flexible mixture of public and private, with most doctors, nurses and other professionals working for private medical groups, not for the government as in the Canadian or British-style single payer systems. Many hospitals also are in private hands, while others are in public hands."

Could one of our Canadians comment? I thought that Canada had a sole health insurer and controller, the Canadian government, but at the same time the doctors were private, in that they billed rather than worked on salary. Somewhat like a franchise owner is a private business, but with many controls and stipulations on his freedom.

Incidentally, seems like a good article. I never have understood why we in the US seem so easily manipulated by someone yelling- SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. It is just a phrase, and as this article points out, many countries that achieve better outcomes than us, for less money, have found inventive ways to deliver care.

Just like the AMA used to buy ads to knock down universal care for their self interest as they saw it, we now have a more formidable foe to deal with - the insurance companies and “managed care” firms.

Haha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-07-2006, 02:25 PM   #3
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Here we go again. : Has anybody ever thought that the civil lawyers (as well as incompetent doctors), who sue over stupid things is a leading cause of the increased medical bills. If the doc's were competent they wouldn't make major mistakes leading to a lawsuit. If you want to make a European laugh tell them about suing McDonald's because someone was burned by hot coffee. Our society is so sue happy then we complain about the increased prices. Well DUH, someone has to pay when the person being sued loses millions of dollars.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-07-2006, 03:19 PM   #4
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Do a search on prior topics, and good luck sifting through them. Reams of actual data shows that lawsuits, malpractice and illegal aliens are all drops in the health care spending bucket. More is spent on paper.

Again, the majority of health care cost is distributed between people taking lousy care of themselves, poor proactive care and not being able to let go of mortally injured or diseased people. With the biggest piece being the inability to let go although fat out of shape people are making a run at the crown.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-08-2006, 01:52 AM   #5
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,375
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Keeping early premies alive is another expense contributor, especially those who are hospitalized for months and continue to have medical problems for life. Talk about tough choices...
__________________
You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you might find you get what you need.
astromeria is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-08-2006, 06:01 AM   #6
Recycles dryer sheets
tomz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 251
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

According to the Citizens Healthcare study:

Malpractice legal costs and patient payments represent less than 1/2 of 1 percent of total ($10 billion)

That's a lot of money, but our total healthcare expenditures are about $2 trillion a year.

From Cato:

1% of patients consume 27% of resources
top 10% consume 70%
top 30% consume 90%

These patients are usually in chronic/end of life situations.

According to a study done in 2004, the US spends $5,267 per person/per annum on health care. Of that $2,364 is government spending (44%).



__________________
tomz is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 08:33 AM   #7
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 714
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

You're really taking your life in your hands quoting Cato around here ...
__________________
Craig is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 08:46 AM   #8
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 844
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare



Sure doesn't look like we are getting our monies worth...look at all those "socialized" countries that are spending less and getting more "life" for their dollars.
__________________
farmerEd is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 08:54 AM   #9
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7,408
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Hmmmm

Absolutely - me being a lunch bucket Dem and all that.

Unfortunately - handgrenade wise - they may be close to the mark.

heh heh heh - Now if some Dems line up and and - a consensus with Cato!! - weird coffee this morning.
__________________
unclemick is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 09:18 AM   #10
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

A question about the chart. Does the per capita spent include just the life sustaining procedures or does it also include cosmetic one? It really doesn't matter because the average life expectancy has more to with living choices not the amount of money spent on medical care. It can even be seen here with the differences between those who take care of themselves and live a low stress life and those who are always stressed and don't take care of themselves. So essentially the chart is irrelevant.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 09:26 AM   #11
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Tadpole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,169
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

As for myself, I could care less what the ideology of the system is. I want the best care for the cheapest price. If that is universal, so be it. It's a personal business cost/benefit analysis and not a political or ideological one. Would like to see that graph reposted with a life expectancy/cost per individual line on it. As far as the CATO numbers go, there is nothing wrong with them except that in any given year anyone might be one of the top 1%, 20% or 30%. Most costs are incurred in the last months of life or so they say. Who here expects to avoid having at least one occurrence of the "last months of life" during their lifetime?
__________________
Tadpole is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 09:28 AM   #12
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Tadpole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,169
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
A question about the chart.* Does the per capita spent include just the life sustaining procedures or does it also include cosmetic one?* It really doesn't matter because the average life expectancy has more to with living choices not the amount of money spent on medical care.* It can even be seen here with the differences between those who take care of themselves and live a low stress life and those who are always stressed and don't take care of themselves.* So essentially the chart is irrelevant.
You left superior and inferior genetics out of that argument. Um, also bad and drunk drivers and the like. Good habits will only get you so far. Life is a risk. Should health care be a risk?
__________________
Tadpole is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 09:38 AM   #13
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
cute fuzzy bunny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Losing my whump
Posts: 22,697
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomz
According to the Citizens Healthcare study:

Malpractice legal costs and patient payments represent less than 1/2 of 1 percent of total ($10 billion)

That's a lot of money, but our total healthcare expenditures are about $2 trillion a year.

From Cato:

1% of patients consume 27% of resources
top 10% consume 70%
top 30% consume 90%

These patients are usually in chronic/end of life situations.

According to a study done in 2004, the US spends $5,267 per person/per annum on health care. Of that $2,364 is government spending (44%).
Ding! Ding! Ding!

Its a lot more fun to pick on hot button political issues, but these are the facts, and I doubt you'll find a doctor on the front lines that would disagree.

Carving into administrative overhead, bureaucracy, addressing situations before they become chronic, and knowing when to stop treatment is how we cut the cost of health care in half.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tadpole
Most costs are incurred in the last months of life or so they say. Who here expects to avoid having at least one occurrence of the "last months of life" during their lifetime?
Its not that huge of a number, although i'd like to know what it is. Its not a "last months of life" problem...many people die of natural causes or die suddenly. The real healthcare cost is in the insured, chronically ill or severely injured people who cant accept the situation. Thats not everyone or even a strong minority. I think we're in the 20-30% vicinity tops.
__________________
Be fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful. Just another form of "buy low, sell high" for those who have trouble with things. This rule is not universal. Do not buy a 1973 Pinto because everyone else is afraid of it.
cute fuzzy bunny is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 09:39 AM   #14
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 8,634
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
A question about the chart. Does the per capita spent include just the life sustaining procedures or does it also include cosmetic one?
Maybe it includes Ho-Ho's and Big Macs. But it is depressing to pay more than twice the average just to tie with Cuba!
__________________
Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson
donheff is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 01:45 PM   #15
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by lets-retire
It really doesn't matter because the average life expectancy has more to with living choices not the amount of money spent on medical care.* It can even be seen here with the differences between those who take care of themselves and live a low stress life and those who are always stressed and don't take care of themselves.*
I would really like to see your expansion of this idea.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 04:00 PM   #16
Full time employment: Posting here.
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Okanagan Valley
Posts: 805
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaHa
I copied this from the article:

"How do these non-single-payer nations provide such excellent care? These nations employ a system that blends a flexible mixture of public and private, with most doctors, nurses and other professionals working for private medical groups, not for the government as in the Canadian or British-style single payer systems. Many hospitals also are in private hands, while others are in public hands."

Could one of our Canadians comment? I thought that Canada had a sole health insurer and controller, the Canadian government, but at the same time the doctors were private, in that they billed rather than worked on salary. Somewhat like a franchise owner is a private business, but with many controls and stipulations on his freedom.

Haha
Responding re: Canada

Doctors are in private practice and set up practice in clinics that they and their partner physicians manage similarly to the USA. Their income is based on how many patients they see, how many operations they perform, etc. Fees paid for each service are determined by each province's health care system (not unlike USA managed care systems, e.g. PPO's). There are some differences from province to province because health care is administered on a provincial basis, but must provide services under the principles of the Canada Health Act to maintain some equality and consistency across Canada, or risk losing Federal funding (which comes from the General Revenue account and thus the taxpayer).

Capital and operating budgets for hospitals, infrastructure, equipment, number of beds and staff, etc are controlled ultimately by each of the provinces, and in Alberta at least, through regional health boards. For example, the Calgary Health Region contains multiple hospitals and serves over 1 million people. It operates under budgets allocated from the provincial government, but makes local decisions on how much of that money is spent. The government, via budget controls for services, thus indirectly controls the amount of beds available, number of operating rooms available, and amount of equipment available.

Thus the government does provide budgetary pressure and seeks to try to manage costs, resulting in some waiting times for some procedures. Bottom line though is that urgent treatment, with few exceptions, gets done quickly, e.g. a heart attack victim goes in for a double, triple, quadruple bypass instantaneously. A hip joint replacement however may have a 6 month waiting list.

Generally speaking, all basic services, e.g. doctor appointments, lab fees, etc. are 'free' to the user except for prescription drugs administered by doctors via their clinics. If people want more than basic coverage, e.g. private hospital room and prescription drug protection, they can buy additional health insurance from private providers.

Hope that helps.
__________________
AltaRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare
Old 07-09-2006, 04:23 PM   #17
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,380
Re: Yet another article on Universal Healthcare

Thanks AltaRed.

Ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The REAL Cost of Healthcare Premium Caps ScaredtoQuit FIRE and Money 25 06-18-2007 08:46 PM
Listened to a program today on Universal Healthcare.......... Cut-Throat FIRE and Money 102 08-12-2006 03:39 PM
Healthcare costs moretolife FIRE and Money 2 11-28-2005 04:13 PM
Natural Limits to Healthcare Expense Growth? haha FIRE and Money 84 06-11-2005 06:59 PM
America can afford to spend more on healthcare?!? Nords FIRE and Money 23 10-13-2004 07:07 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:15 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.