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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 10:18 AM   #21
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

I donít see where anyone, including Al, said, ďto heck with Jenny Ė let her pay for her own education.Ē

Maybe Al can chime in and enlighten us as to the nature of the original expense and why he didnít agree to just roll the costs associated with the internship into what he is already paying for his daughterís education.

My sons have my commitment that I will pay for their education. I can afford to send them wherever they are accepted, and I can swing reasonable expenses for extras. But I intend to work out some agreement with them as to what is reasonable and anything over that will be out of their pockets. The costs associated with a summer internship would not be a financial burden for me, and provided it was a legitimate part of the education (and the costs were in line) I wouldnít have a problem writing a $7,000 check.

But Iím not Al.

Without putting words in Alís mouth, when I read his post I just assumed that this expense was over and above what he and his family had understood they would pay for as part of their daughterís education.

The real issue is not the money she owes, but how she dealt with the situation of going into debt and handling her finances appropriately. She overestimated how much she would make, underestimated her expenses, neglected to balance her checkbook, and when she went into default she ignored her creditor. What do they call that in the real world? Default? Poor credit risk? Bankruptcy?

I remember Azanonís post about his father in law who had the money to pay for his daughterís education but refused to because he was cheap. But I also know my in-laws, who had the money and did just about everything for their kids. The result is that my brothers and sisters in law have all had horrible financial problems. Most of them make more than enough to live a nice lifestyle (two own their own businesses), but none of them know how to be responsible with what they have. Between them they have several bankruptcies, horrible credit and a few IRS liens for non-payment of taxes. The eldest sister in law (in her mid 50ís) canít get a loan anywhere except the First Bank of Dad Ė and sheís defaulted there a few times (It has even extended into the second generation with her daughter who defaulted on nearly $100K to the First Bank of Grandad for a business loan). All of their problems stemmed from a complete ignorance of how to deal with credit and handle basic finances. None of it stemmed from divorce, in fact the ones who have finally straightened up their financial lives did so with the help of spouses who knew how to budget, pay bills and not borrow more than they could handle.

Iím not advocating that Al ruin his relationship with his daughter over a few dollars Ė but I donít think he should just write the debt off if he can use the opportunity to help young Miss Trombone learn something important that they donít teach in college. Itís better to be mad at the First Bank of Dad for a while rather than come back in a few years and be $30,000 in the hole to Capital One because she never learned how to handle debt responsibly.
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 10:23 AM   #22
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
Iím not advocating that Al ruin his relationship with his daughter over a few dollars Ė but I donít think he should just write the debt off if he can use the opportunity to help young Miss Trombone learn something important that they donít teach in college. Itís better to be mad at the First Bank of Dad for a while rather than come back in a few years and be $30,000 in the hole to Capital One because she never learned how to handle debt responsibly.
This is exactly what I was trying to say.
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 10:28 AM   #23
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonidas
I donít see where anyone, including Al, said, ďto heck with Jenny Ė let her pay for her own education.Ē
T-Al didnt.... Al has explained in the past that he is sending his daughter to a private school out of state.....she bounces checks, and even didnt take responsibility for double ordering some airline tickets before (another post)....It seems like he is doing too much for her and she expects her parents to be a net to catch her on everything....I think it is a far cry from abandoning her vs. making her take on a little more responsibility....

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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 10:39 AM   #24
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

This topic has surely produced a plethora of well thought out advice/
positions. I still come down on writing it off after a good serious
discussion with the girl. I wouldn't want my daughter to be mad at
"The Bank of Dad" even for a little while. But, maybe I'm overly sensitive to this stuff having waded through so many marital/family troubles. As far as educating the girl in "the real world", the school of hard knocks has always
been a pretty good teacher. The learning may be painful, but the lessons
can last a lifetime.

JG
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 10:57 AM   #25
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Leonidas,

Very well put, I agree 100%.
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 11:37 AM   #26
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
Right. What this thread is about is a 20 year old kid being treated like an adult...
20 year olds fight our wars. Until recently 20 year olds had a lot of our babies. Probably many of us have mothers or grandmothers who were 20 or so when their first children were born.

20 year olds are perfectly capable of being adults. It is true that many of them don't much want to, but that holds for older people too.

Ha
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 01:05 PM   #27
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Wow, what a lot of great discussion. Thanks, guys.

Requiring her to repay the entire loan in the short term wouldn't be practical since she doesn't have the time to earn that kind of money. In the long term it would add quite a burden to the other student loans that she has. So I will probably forgive a good portion of it.

Background on our contributions to her education costs:

Freshman year:

Total costs: $42,091
Scholarships: $6,350
Stafford Loan: $2,650
Loan from Mom & Dad: $1,250 (same terms as Stafford)
From Jenny's Savings: $3227
Mom & Dad pay: $28,614

Sophomore year:
Total costs: $45,886
Scholarships: $10,000
Perkins Loan: $4,000
Stafford Loan: $3,500
Jenny's Job during school year: $2,000
Mom & Dad pay: $26,386
(This does not include the $7,000 loan)



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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 03:07 PM   #28
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azanon
there's a special kind of pleasure that comes along with eventually getting on your feet anyway, despite the abandonment, then having years of being able to make the abandoning parent pay for it.
Wow, you are one bitter whatever.


T-Al
Having raised two kids to full adulthood, (been there done that) I agree fully with the advice that this is a time for a serious sit down talk. Back it up with a little pressure (i.e. cut a few dollars out of the monthly stipend) if necessary, but much more important for her to learn about consequences of debt/default. The money really is secondary to the lesson.
Good luck. This is probably the last couple of years that you have available to help you child with this lesson.
Tio z
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 03:22 PM   #29
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

I don't feel like I can comment on T-Al's dilemma. But I have a few things to share on how I raised kids who turned out to be financially responsible.

I wouldn't let my kids work for pay during high school--I figured they'll have decades in the workforce :P and I wanted them to focus on studies, hobbies, and friendships.

They were each responsible for 1/3 of their college tuition + room & board (their father--my ex--and I each paid another third). Merit scholarships reduced only the student's share--financial aid reduced all shares equally. I paid for all school books and gave each a computer. The kids (maybe their father chipped in--I really don't remember) paid other expenses like entertianment. I gave them each an old car for college graduation, for which they were very grateful. I didn't help pay for car insurance or repairs, or any otehr expenses after college.

While they were allowed to live at home after college, I didn't encurage it (and they didn't do it!); neither did I give them any financial assistance to make their way in the world other than practical birthday and Christmas gifts such as a microwave, TV, bed linens that we shopped for together.

I don't claim that I did all the right things (or even any right things-), but they both quickly found work after college, and have been completely self-supporting ever since.

I encourage them (my daughter would say bore them!) not to get into debt and to save for short-, medium-, and long-term goals as well as emergencies. I gave DD $10k for her wedding and will give the same (plus inflation 8)) to my son by age 30 whether he wants it for a wedding or first home or whatever. If either of my children fell on hard times, I would help wihout hesitation. Also if they wanted to start a business. But otherwise--no financial coddling from the mater & step-pater <and she calls herself a liberal! >
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 03:34 PM   #30
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl
Wow, what a lot of great discussion. Thanks, guys.

Requiring her to repay the entire loan in the short term wouldn't be practical since she doesn't have the time to earn that kind of money. In the long term it would add quite a burden to the other student loans that she has. So I will probably forgive a good portion of it.

Background on our contributions to her education costs:

Freshman year:

Total costs: $42,091
Scholarships: $6,350
Stafford Loan: $2,650
Loan from Mom & Dad: $1,250 (same terms as Stafford)
From Jenny's Savings: $3227
Mom & Dad pay: $28,614

Sophomore year:
Total costs: $45,886
Scholarships: $10,000
Perkins Loan: $4,000
Stafford Loan: $3,500
Jenny's Job during school year: $2,000
Mom & Dad pay: $26,386
(This does not include the $7,000 loan)



Well, those numbers have eased my pain a bit.

JG
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 04:57 PM   #31
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Hi all and Al,

I am new to the board, although I have been lurking here for some time.

I believe the important part of your story is that your daughter took the initiative to try and run a company. What a great opportunity. I am sure the experience is one that few others are able to have at such a young age. I would never want a child not to have the experience for fear of failure and having to pay back such a loan. I would have the talk about the loan, forgive it, but be sure to compliment her on taking a chance.

My parents paid for my education, and I thank them often for everything, but especially for two things in particular. No debt upon graduation, and more importantly, the time and ability to open my eyes to things I might have missed if I had been at a job every non-studying hour. Teaching your kids about finances is important, but letting them explore is important as well. If one cannot afford it, so be it. I would only suggest that if it is affordable, your kids might learn more with time on their hands in a learning environment than working to make ends meet.

As background (since I have not put up a profile yet) I am 38, married with two kids ages nine and six. My wife and I have started teaching them about finances and savings as best we can at their ages. (My nine year old has already recognized that the interest on his savings account is not very much. My six year old has decided he does not like baseball cards so much when he has to pay for half.) If able, I plan to pay for them to go to school wherever they are accepted. I would like them to have the same great opportunity that my parents could afford to give me.

Thanks so much for supporting this board. There are a lot of great ideas. It is nice to read about and learn from people who are successful and happy.

Gordon
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 05:03 PM   #32
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

I never thought that I'd read myself writing this, but you guys are all making the military academies look attractive...
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 05:31 PM   #33
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Well this has been an interesting thread.

I left home at 17 after High School and went in the Air Force. I have been self supporting since. I do not have a College Degree. No one would have paid for me to get one, my family could not have afforded it. I could not afford it nor would have had the time when I was raising my Family.

So I would say if you have parents who are supporting you in any way to go to College then you should be grateful for what you get. No one owes you anything, much less a free education.

I don't think my parents abandoned me at 17. I talk to them several times a week yet and will as long as they are alive, or I am.

The expectation when I was a kid was that you stand on your own two feet and not whine about what is owed to you.

Trombone Al's daughter is very lucky to have so much support.
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 06:22 PM   #34
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus
So I would say if you have parents who are supporting you in any way to go to College then you should be grateful for what you get. No one owes you anything, much less a free education.
Wow. I just tuned into this one and I disagree wih Lazarus. If you don't want to raise them don't have em. Az is right that college is what HS used to be - we owe it to our kids to get them out of school. There is no question in my mind that I would delay ER if needed to get my kids out of college with no student loans. If you don't earn enough to make that happen then maybe you get off the hook. But if you have the dough pay for school.

That said, Al is paying for an expensive private school - that is above and beyond. I am in a similar situation, covering my daughter at NYU (~$50k/yr). She could have gone to a state school anywhere in the country and received $10K/yr from DC to offset the out of state tuition. Al's daughter probably had some good state options as well. So I don't think Al or I owe it to our daughter's to fund a lavish lifestyle beyond school.

It sounds like Al did the reasonable thing with his daughter's request for a loan to start a "business." He gave her one. Now that she has defaulted he is sensibly trying to find a compassionate way to let her off the hook without encouraging her to be irresponsible. One way, might be (per JG and AZ) to talk with her about the consequences of her action and what they would lead to in the "real" world and then forgive the loan. I might take that route - but I would worry about it. Restructuring the loan so that she still has to pay something and curtail living large a bit sounds like a sesnible alternative too - maybe a better alternative.

As others said, he can always forgive the loan when she graduates in four years.

By the way, that reminds me about my son. He kept dropping classes and extending his stay (chip off the old block - 6 year man). So I made him take on a student loan to cover a portion of the final year. After he got out and was successfully paying it back I stepped in and paid it off. He is now 32, owns a home and is living below his means.

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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 06:27 PM   #35
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Is working your way through college really so terrible? I did it, and I'm glad I did.

Maybe my experience was unusual, but the kind of jobs available to me in college included gigs like teaching assistant, research assistant, computer programmer, etc. I honestly got a better education working at those ivory tower gigs than I did in the classroom.
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 06:27 PM   #36
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Nords -- could do a lot worse, as you and your DW already know. Space A anyone
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 07:11 PM   #37
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by donheff
Wow. I just tuned into this one and I disagree wih Lazarus. If you don't want to raise them don't have em. Az is right that college is what HS used to be - we owe it to our kids to get them out of school. There is no question in my mind that I would delay ER if needed to get my kids out of college with no student loans. If you don't earn enough to make that happen then maybe you get off the hook. But if you have the dough pay for school.

That said, Al is paying for an expensive private school - that is above and beyond. I am in a similar situation, covering my daughter at NYU (~$50k/yr). She could have gone to a state school anywhere in the country and received $10K/yr from DC to offset the out of state tuition. Al's daughter probably had some good state options as well. So I don't think Al or I owe it to our daughter's to fund a lavish lifestyle beyond school.

It sounds like Al did the reasonable thing with his daughter's request for a loan to start a "business." He gave her one. Now that she has defaulted he is sensibly trying to find a compassionate way to let her off the hook without encouraging her to be irresponsible. One way, might be (per JG and AZ) to talk with her about the consequences of her action and what they would lead to in the "real" world and then forgive the loan. I might take that route - but I would worry about it. Restructuring the loan so that she still has to pay something and curtail living large a bit sounds like a sesnible alternative too - maybe a better alternative.

As others said, he can always forgive the loan when she graduates in four years.

By the way, that reminds me about my son. He kept dropping classes and extending his stay (chip off the old block - 6 year man). So I made him take on a student loan to cover a portion of the final year. After he got out and was successfully paying it back I stepped in and paid it off. He is now 32, owns a home and is living below his means.

Have you put kids through College? I have two in right now. But I still don't owe it to them. It's something I am doing for them.
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-23-2006, 11:00 PM   #38
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

My parents abandoned me at age 11. Luckily, I had relatives that took me in and I lived with them until age 18. However, I started working at age 15 and paid for my own clothing, car, car insurance and car maintenance. I never expected them to pay for any of those things for me and felt lucky to have a home. I also never expected anyone to pay for college for me. I started going to college via college loans, but did not continue with it, because of the fear of the large debt. I was also immature and there were other reasons too. I have regretted not having a college education in the past. It would have helped me in getting promotions. We paid for our son's college education, but a lot of money was wasted on it. He went to college for several years, but never did graduate. He had enough quarters to graduate, but not all the ones that he needed. We bought the prepaid tuition plan for our daughter, who is a senior in high school. She also qualifies for a state scholarship and between the 2 of them, she will be able to go to a state college without debt.

My son has borrowed money from us at least 2 times without paying us back fully. I have basically written the remaining money off. I feel that my DH and myself took the easy way out and it did not teach our son a good lesson. He is 28 yrs old and I would think long and hard before lending him any more money. (I would if he really needed it though.)

It is hard being a parent. You love your children and want to help them, but you also want them to learn certain lessons. You want your children to learn to be independent and strong. There needs to be parenting classes!!!
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-24-2006, 07:16 AM   #39
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Have you put kids through College? I have two in right now. But I still don't owe it to them. It's something I am doing for them.
I put one through college and have a daughter in junior year. I believe I do owe it to them to cover college the extent that I can. I made that deal when I decided to have kids. If I didn't earn enough to pay for it I would help them to the extent that I could. I would delay ER if needed (and in fact did, now that I think of it) to make sure college costs are covered.

I think this applies as well to divorced parents (male or female) who are separated from their kids. My son grew up in another state with my ex. I always made a home for him here and I paid all of his college.
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue
Old 10-24-2006, 07:23 AM   #40
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Re: Your Input on Teenager/Money Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by wab
Is working your way through college really so terrible? I did it, and I'm glad I did.
I worked throughout college as well but my parents paid what they could (tuition, books, room and board the first two years). Both my son and daughter worked part time while in school and in high school. But I encouraged my daughter to drop the job for a while when her grades faltered a bit. School records seem to be more important now than they were years ago. As some one else said early in this thread - college is as essential as HS was in our day.

I am a proponent of sacrificing (if needed) to send you kids through college. But I am not a fan of spoiling them. We haven't bought them cars, flashy clothes, stereos, blah, blah. We have paid for their schooling.
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