You've got to know when to fold 'em

Last time I went to Vegas, I won $3700 in 4 hours, my first day there.......that was 1987.......... :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

I have not gone back..........but all I can say it what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas............who knew a college kid could rent a Porsche to cruise the strip back then:confused: :D :D :D
 
HaHa said:
I also feel that some sports betting experience is good training in combinations and permutations and a good reality factor for anyone who is interested in stocks.

Ha

Maybe. Personally, I'd rather trade options.
 
Martha said:
I am sitting in the lobby of the casino catching up a bit on the net. I kinda have to pee, but haven't wanted to put the computer away yet. . . .

Lol :D
 
Martha said:
I am sitting in the lobby of the casino catching up a bit on the net. I kinda have to pee, but haven't wanted to put the computer away yet. . . .
Perhaps there's an astronaut solution for you :LOL: :LOL:
 
Donzo said:
I used to go to alot of conventions at casinos - what always amazed me was that on my way to the hall at 7:30am the slots were full w/ people smoking, drinking and looking miserable. How long could you live w/ this lifestyle - what is really disturbing is that.....this was prob. their vacation!

I can top that--one of the local casinos is at about the halfway point of my commute. About 3 months ago we had a killer ice storm bearing down, and I was booking it down the road on a Friday afternoon after they closed the campus to make it home before the storm really hit. I happened to glance at the casino parking lot when i passed and it was about half-full...and I'm sure that those people were NOT all employees. *sigh*
 
When I was young and stupid, my wife and I would cash a check at the grocery store on Friday nite, after 3pm when the banks closed, and head up to Reno, a two hour drive. We'd stay in cheap motel rooms, eat at cheap casino buffets and play 21 as long as we could sit. Most of the time we'd lose. A few times we couldn't cover those checks.

After we grew up financially, got decent jobs, and bought a house, we used all our spare cash on gardening and furnishing. Wife lost interest in gambling when we had something besides our credit to lose, and we gradually stopped going to Reno. We vacationed in Mauii or Kauii if we wanted to drop big bucks.

Now there are Indian casinos less than a half an hour away, but they are the only places in California where folks smoke in enclosed places. We gave that up back when we were still stupid.

For our 25th we flew to Las Vegas and stayed at the Bellagio when it was new. We went to all the casinos to see the sites. The Star-Trek exhibit, the moving statues in Caesar's Palace, the lion cubs at MGM grand, drove out to Red Rock to hike and see Indian hand prints, wandered through the Venician with its indoor canals, the Parisian with its quaint shops, the underground city at the New Yoker. Saw Cirque de Solei's "O". Gambled at a 21 table for almost 8 hours, talking with a variety of amusing folks, a aging actress, a tatoo artist, a young, chubby hip-hopper who drank huge Margheritas's out of a Statue of Liberty image while he won playing the worst cards I've ever seen and busting dealer after dealer to the delite of the rest of the table. Finally, we had to leave the table to get ready for a Comedy Club show. We cashed out the chips I had been stashing in my pants pockets all day saying, "OK, will just play with these remaining few chips and leave when we lose." Had over $700!

We had a wonderful time but for some reason have not had the urge to repeat in the last 9 years. Only visited the local casinos once and left after paying for the buffet with our winnings. I don't know why we don't gamble anymore.
 
Elderdude said:
We had a wonderful time but for some reason have not had the urge to repeat in the last 9 years. Only visited the local casinos once and left after paying for the buffet with our winnings. I don't know why we don't gamble anymore.
Same here. We enjoyed some parts of Vegas but we were there in March before the weather turned nasty. I think part of the Vegas "been there, done that" feeling was the relentless marketing & money-grubbing.

Slots bore me to tears. If the casinos had provided spouse spectator seating I would've spent a lot more time at the blackjack tables. She didn't want the "burden" of dealing with the cards & chips.

Hawaii (and, I'm told, Utah) are the only states that don't have gambling. The latest pro-gambling tactic has been scary articles in the local media about how Hawaii visitor counts will just implode if we don't have something for everyone to do besides frolic outdoors... Singapore, Macao, & Vegas will suck all the money out of the islands!
 
I actually work in a casino, in the back counting the money being put into slots and tables.

My oh my, let me tell you... there are alot of sheep paying my wages. I don't think I could stomach working out on the floor, but I don't mind being in the back playing with money.. err I mean.. counting the money.

I have been to vegas once, and seeing people blankly staring at the machine while robotically feeding them, was depressing.
 
here's my winning strategy to win a million or so...

Start with a 1$ bet on blackjack or on a roulette game. When you win that bet you now have $2. Take that $2 bet and let it ride. When that bet wins you now have $4. Repeat this process letting the bet ride each time. After 10 bets you will then have just over $1000. You can stop there or if you need even more money let it ride for another 10 hands or so. At this stage you'll have just over a million dollars.

If you like you can stop there or let it ride for a few more hands. Then take your multi-million dollar payout. Don't forget to pay the taxes due on your winnings. And then retire early to a life of leisure.

- Now what could be simpler ;)
 
Nords said:
Same here. We enjoyed some parts of Vegas but we were there in March before the weather turned nasty. I think part of the Vegas "been there, done that" feeling was the relentless marketing & money-grubbing.

Slots bore me to tears. If the casinos had provided spouse spectator seating I would've spent a lot more time at the blackjack tables. She didn't want the "burden" of dealing with the cards & chips.

Hawaii (and, I'm told, Utah) are the only states that don't have gambling. The latest pro-gambling tactic has been scary articles in the local media about how Hawaii visitor counts will just implode if we don't have something for everyone to do besides frolic outdoors... Singapore, Macao, & Vegas will suck all the money out of the islands!

Ohio and Alabama don't have casinos (AL doesn't have lottery).
 
Actually, Alabama has an Indian casino on the Poarch Creek reservation that utilizes Class II gaming devices (bingo machines that look and feel like Las Vegas slot machines, which are termed Class III under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988). An Alabama House subcommittee this week considered legislation that would permit slot machines at race tracks (again), but it appears to be going nowhere.

All told, at least 28 states have Indian gaming (this week's Economist says its 30)and 11 or 12 states have commercial gaming . All but a handful of states now have state lotteries. What's interesting is that Indian gaming will soon catch up with commercial gaming in total gaming revenues. There are about 410 Indian casinos nationwide vis-a-vis 450 or so commercial casinos. Indians "share revenues" in lieu of taxes but often at rates well below what commercial casinos pay under a very complex compacting system with state governments.

Commercial gaming in 2005 brought in about $30 billion; Indian casinos about $23 billion. No firm numbers since but projections will probably put Indian gaming at around $25 billion for 2006 and commercial gaming around $32 billlion. What's amazing is how much demand remains unsatisfied for gaming (despite the smoke, sad denizens of many casinos, etc.). Pennsylvania will soon have slots-only casinos, Kansas just legalized (like this week) for slots at race tracks (called racinos), Maine (I think I remember having read) will have a referendum... and so on.

Fact is that twice before in American history, gambling was everywhere and then it was abolished. Maybe it will happen a third time?
 
We went to vegas last year. Flew in to drive to the grand canyon, Zion, Bryce canyon, Sedona, etc.. We spent a couple of days in vegas to take it in and see what it was about. We do not enjoy gambling. THey do have many hotels, good restaurants, and many shows. WE stayed on the strip. We walked around and looked at the hotels one day. The next day we drove to some of the local state parks. The last day in vegas we were bored. After an inital curiosity glance in the casino... it seemed boring.

You are correct... there were some people losing money. I have some friends that enjoy gambling. THey say they chalk the spending up to entertainment.

I saw a show about gambling. The casinos comp back up to 40% of the winnings to heavy gamblers in low cost or free rooms, shows, and food so they the experience is more pleasant. (Even though you lost, you had a chance to win, and got really great deals on the trip). That approach seems to work. People go to these places in droves.

Ever since I had a few classes in probability and statistics in under grad and grad school.... I have known better. You are unlikely to win. If you hit it big... you better stop.

Black jack seems to have the best odds for the average gambler... roulette has the worst odds.

Me... I used to gamble on the market. I kicked the habit. I am clean 7 years now. :D :D :D

Anybody ever short-sell? ;)
 
"No firm numbers since but projections will probably put Indian gaming at around $25 billion for 2006 and commercial gaming around $32 billlion. "

One thing is for sure Indian gaming has become a major force, in American politics. By all accounts they were a major lobbying organization in getting Congress to ban internet gambling. I stopped right after the law went into a effect, but I know a number of people who have money in off-shore casino and now can't get access to it.
 
playaman said:
Actually, Alabama has an Indian casino on the Poarch Creek reservation that utilizes Class II gaming devices (bingo machines that look and feel like Las Vegas slot machines, which are termed Class III under the Indian Gaming Regulatory Act of 1988). An Alabama House subcommittee this week considered legislation that would permit slot machines at race tracks (again), but it appears to be going nowhere.

All told, at least 28 states have Indian gaming (this week's Economist says its 30)and 11 or 12 states have commercial gaming . All but a handful of states now have state lotteries. What's interesting is that Indian gaming will soon catch up with commercial gaming in total gaming revenues. There are about 410 Indian casinos nationwide vis-a-vis 450 or so commercial casinos. Indians "share revenues" in lieu of taxes but often at rates well below what commercial casinos pay under a very complex compacting system with state governments.

Commercial gaming in 2005 brought in about $30 billion; Indian casinos about $23 billion. No firm numbers since but projections will probably put Indian gaming at around $25 billion for 2006 and commercial gaming around $32 billlion. What's amazing is how much demand remains unsatisfied for gaming (despite the smoke, sad denizens of many casinos, etc.). Pennsylvania will soon have slots-only casinos, Kansas just legalized (like this week) for slots at race tracks (called racinos), Maine (I think I remember having read) will have a referendum... and so on.

Fact is that twice before in American history, gambling was everywhere and then it was abolished. Maybe it will happen a third time?
You seem to have a good grasp on the subject matter, so perhaps you (anyone else welcome also) could point me to websites etc that have info on casinos. I'm looking for data on the negatives (crime/health) positives (grants to host cities, jobs) and demographics tidbits (I find the smoking comments interesting) or whatever else might be interesting such as financials. A trip to the GOOG provides many leads, but I've found the bulk of it seems to be written by someone with a dog in the fight.
Any tips appreciated.
 
chinaco said:
Black jack seems to have the best odds for the average gambler... roulette has the worst odds.

I would disagree with the last portion of your statement. If you bet on the board then your odds are a little less than 1 in 38 on an American table, but if you bet on the side your odds can be as good as a little less than 1 in 2.
 
JPatrick--I was joking around with a couple of my co-workers about one penny slot machine would pay my income. He was saying that the profit from the penny slots is where the casino makes most of their money. I don't know where he got his information, but my personal observations seem to support it.
 
Good websites for information about gambling are:

www.americangaming.org - the pro-industry site operated by the American Gaming Association. Has a lot of empirical data, particularly in an on-line brochure that one can download easily. Data is for 2005 though.

www.indiangaming.org - the website of the National Indian Gaming Assoication. Not as good but OK for good overview.

www.ncalg.org -- the website of the National Coaltion Against Legalized Gambling. Obviously, they view it as a major problem, sin, etc.

Many others out there but most of them are not that great -- although Casino City has sort of a fun one with sometimes good data on it.

And, by-the-way, penny slot machines are often the mainstays of many mid-level and "grind joint" casinos. You really can't bet just one cent, and many people end up betting 45 cents or more per play.
 
Great info playaman!
I may be drafted into a anti-casino role though I'm not eager for the part.
I'm just a NIMBY, but one who also enjoys Vegas and trading the gaming stocks.
FWIW, currently looking for a SHFL rebound :D
Thanks for the links.
 
HaHa said:
Next time you are out west, stop into the sports book at Caesar's or The Mirage or Bellagio. Plush quiet atmosphere, huge TVs with sports events from all over the world, odds and propositions of every imaginable kind.
Ha

I have been to LV once and it was awe inspiring in a stupendously, trashy addictive kind of way. The gambling was truly frightening to me as I can imagine how people get sucked down that rabbit hole.

But I have to say that Bellagio is a gorgeous fake environment complete with a fantastical Chihuly glass chandelier in the lobby and a bunch of pools in a Tuscan courtyard that made me want to plunk down $350/night just to loll about in luxury for a while.
 
It's hard for me to share my own feelings about Vegas and gambling in general without sounding preachy and moralistic, which is weird, because I really am libertarian by nature.

Generally, if people want to do something, and it does not directly harm anyone else, I say 'let them." That goes for drugs, smoking, eating, sex, suicide, gambling, whatever.

You speak for you.

That said, my own observations on gambling are that it is horribly corrosive. Not the occasional wager of a cup of coffee on the weather, or office pool, (which I never feel compelled to make anyway), but the way that casinos, poker, bingo, lotto, etc have all just become ubiquitous, and likely to be frequented by those least likely to be able to afford it, and the most likely to be ensnared in a downward spiraling economic result. These forms of gambling have all become so familiar that we don't think twice about them. But the truth is that it is all a less than zero-sum game. Crime goes up. Morals go down. Focus becomes on'big payouts' with no effort, versus working to get something via your own efforts. Kids get inculcated to a culture of excessive risk taking (without even knowing the mechanics and math of risk/reward) and desensitized to losing money, as well as to the inappropriate use of credit, i.e. to fuel a lifestyle beyond what regular income can support.

Look at Casey Serin, my favorite whipping boy, lately. Gambling? Yes. The guy expects to somehow develop a mythical "passive income stream", but without equity of his own, and without work. He is not alone. Infomercials abound, using powerful psychological catnip: "You deserve it" and "Everyone has theirs, get yours", "Don;t be just a working schmuck, you are too smart - leave that all behind!"

Heck, if you think of us aspiring FI/RE types, and our talk about drawing a 4% SWR while sipping Mia Tais, kinda sounds the same, right?

But there is a vital difference in substance (that can be too subtle or just not of interest) in what people like Casey are trying to pull off. By letting others use my earned capital to advance a new business, a crop, an invention, I am taking a risk of loss, and therefore getting rewarded with part of the future profit. When you look at gambling, what is the net gain from that closed process, though? What crops get grown? What value is added to society? Politicos wanting to get a hunk of money for their area (and selves, usually!) will claim that economic development occurs as gambling moves in, but it is always (IMHO)robbing from Peter to pay Paul in the long run.

Anyway, just let me sum up my position by saying I am hugely thankful that I have never felt the urge to gamble, and based on how I have seen it affect people, I don't feel likely to change.
 
We were stationed in Las Vegas for three years. Aside from the "normal" challenges of raising a child, parents of adoloscents have an even bigger problem there. It is very difficult to convey the importance of working hard and staying in school to kids surrounded by the climate of Vegas.
"Go to college? Are you kidding me? Julie is making $300 a night as a cocktail waitress, and I've got better legs than she does!"
"Did you hear about that guy who won $2 milllion at Ceasar's yesterday? That happens almost every day there. That's for me, not working my life away in some boring job."

I'm glad we left when our daughter was just a tot.
 
chinaco said:
Black jack seems to have the best odds for the average gambler... roulette has the worst odds.

I have to disagree, too. Black Jack is theoretically beatable, but you have to not make any mental mistakes and bet low until the odds are in your favor and then bet big. Casinos look out for this pattern of betting. They also use incredibly large shoes and reshuffle more frequently, so it would probably take way more effort than it's worth to try to try to find advantageous odds.

Roulette odds on the typical American wheel (with 0 and 00) have somewhat over 5% house edge. I hear European wheels only have the 0 and therefore have better payout odds.

Worst odds are usually the Big Six Wheel and Keno. (ad-ridden link to detailed Keno odds)

Besides Black Jack, Video Poker is another game that is thought to be beatable or nearly so, but again it requires skill.

No-skill games that have good odds include Baccarat (except the tie bet) and Craps, but only on the pass / no pass bets and odds bets. Place bets don't pay as well and neither does field. The bets in front of the stickman are the worst payout odds.

As you may have guessed, I do occasionally gamble, but I set a limit, don't expect to win and chalk it up to entertainment. I find if I get a rewards card and lay my entire stake on the table when getting chips I can usually get a steak dinner comp by the time I'm through. The poker room doesn't get you comps, though.

I avoid skill games and prefer Craps. If I start losing money too quickly I'll retreat to nickel or quarter slots to slow the bleeding and extend the visit, but I'm not particularly fond of slots. I also try to play in a manner to minimize the volatility...for example I may lay more odds on a 6 or 8 point than I might a 4 or 10 point...they payout odds are the same, but I'm more likely to lose a few 4 or 10 odds bets before winning one.
 
Sam--I do agree that many young people are sucked in to the "big money" to be made or won. Most of that money is in the form of tips. While walking around my work the other day I noticed the only people who appear to be having fun are the dealers (in my place they make around 50,000, mostly in tips). The rest of the employees look wore out and ready to put a gun to their heads to end the misery.

As far as a zero sum game I don't think it is. Yes crime normally does go up, but so does property taxes. When a business puts a building worth hundreds of millions of dollars up they are taxed heavily on it. Many times the annual business taxes are based on yearly receipts. Casinos make much money. I was in the count room the other day and the receipts from slots for just over two days was a little short of 2 million (this did not include the table games or the restaurants). If they had a hotel and other amenities they would make much more.
 
The ultimate authority on all casino games is the website
http://wizardofodds.com/. It is created by Micheal Shackelford, Professor of Casino Math at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.

I can't recommend it highly enough if you are going to do some serious gambling at any casino. It tells you about the correct way of playing, Blackjack, Craps, Video Poker, even strange things like Bingo. (It is actually possible to have an advantage over the house in Bingo!) A features lots of easy to print out strategy cards.

A couple of years using his website, and the intense competition between online casino, I managed to make a tidy sum, following his strategies. Sadly the casino caught on to advantage players, and of course our friends in Congress recently protected us from the evils of internet gambling. (i.e. less money for State Lotto and Indian Casinos.)
 
I grew up just down the street from a race track. Horse race betting and sports betting are the ultimate skill games. Race vigorish is huge, but there are some smart and very well informed bettors who win overall. It is really not a game for people who enjoy generalities. And in contrast to the din and crassness on the main floor in a casino, the clubhouse at a track is often one of the nicest places you will see. Food is good, people are nice, it's all good!

The sports book in a nice Strip Casino can also be very enjoyable, and I believe it is somewhat more likely that a well informed bettor can overcome the usual 5% and down vigorish than dealing with the racetrack vig that can be 3 to 6 times as much.

But my favorite sports betting vacation was usually Reno-I'd stay at the El Dorado but hang out in that dive Cal-Neva. Cheap but good food, great looking cocktail waitresses and the chance to bet baseball into a dime line-if you like the favorite, you lay -$1.40; if you want the dog, you take $1.30.

I favor a Darwinian view of vices. Some people can handle them well, others can’t. Everyone should have the opportunity to find out which group he or she belongs in.

Ha
 
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