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401K - Units in Pimco Total Return decline
Old 02-13-2011, 10:00 AM   #1
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401K - Units in Pimco Total Return decline

I have one 401K left to rollover from my last job. It is with John Hancock. When reviewing the Pimco Total Return line item, I noticed the actual 'units' declined from 838 to 828 in the last 6 months. I cannot recall ever having the units decline for a mutual fund. I will call them on Monday to ask, when I initate the rollover.
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Old 02-13-2011, 10:49 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by jayc View Post
I have one 401K left to rollover from my last job. It is with John Hancock. When reviewing the Pimco Total Return line item, I noticed the actual 'units' declined from 838 to 828 in the last 6 months. I cannot recall ever having the units decline for a mutual fund. I will call them on Monday to ask, when I initate the rollover.
Could this be a custodial fee? 10/838=1.2%, in the right neighborhood for a fee of one kind or another.

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Old 02-13-2011, 11:13 AM   #3
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I'd be very interested in what you find. I think I have that fund in an old 401k that I planned on keeping indefinitely. Awhile back they tweeked all the funds and it is now called Pimco Core Plus, but I think it is a private version of Total Bond. The ER was 32bp as of 6.30.10. Im going to poke around to see if there is any similar reduction is shares.
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Old 02-13-2011, 11:43 AM   #4
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Why should you be surprised? It's a bond fund, and interest rates (other than at the very short end of the yield curve - less than one year) have risen rather dramatically over the past 6 months.
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:00 PM   #5
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Why should you be surprised? It's a bond fund, and interest rates (other than at the very short end of the yield curve - less than one year) have risen rather dramatically over the past 6 months.
But that should make price go down, not reduce the number of units he owns.

I suspect Ha is right - it is probably the annual maintenence fee. If you have some way to go online and look at the individual transactions, it might show up there.
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:01 PM   #6
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Why should you be surprised? It's a bond fund, and interest rates (other than at the very short end of the yield curve - less than one year) have risen rather dramatically over the past 6 months.
FIRE'd..... OP didn't say the value of units declined, he said he now has a smaller number of units. Your explanation, despite your apparent amazement that OP would be surprised, doesn't do it.

I've never had a bond fund where the actual number of units (shares) owned declined due to the value of the bonds in the portfolio decreasing. Rather, the value of each unit declined. The number of units stayed the same.

Help me understand, why are you so surprised by OP's surprise?
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:09 PM   #7
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FIRE'd..... OP didn't say the value of units declined, he said he now has a smaller number of units. Your explanation, despite your apparent amazement that OP would be surprised, doesn't do it.

I've never had a bond fund where the actual number of units (shares) owned declined due to the value of the bonds in the portfolio decreasing. Rather, the value of each unit declined. The number of units stayed the same.

Help me understand, why are you so surprised by OP's surprise?
You are quite correct, and I apologize. I misread OP's post. My explanation doesn't apply to this case.

As I think back on my own 401K, the only times the number of units actually decrease is when fees are taken out.
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Old 02-13-2011, 12:10 PM   #8
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I have one 401K left to rollover from my last job. It is with John Hancock. When reviewing the Pimco Total Return line item, I noticed the actual 'units' declined from 838 to 828 in the last 6 months. I cannot recall ever having the units decline for a mutual fund. I will call them on Monday to ask, when I initate the rollover.
Fees. In addition to the stated expense ratios, John Hancock also charges contract-level fees. It's great you will get your money out of there shortly.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:10 AM   #9
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Fees. In addition to the stated expense ratios, John Hancock also charges contract-level fees. It's great you will get your money out of there shortly.
I just got off of the phone with the sleaze bags at John Hancock. It was fees that amounted to 1.1%. When asked why the fees were not on the statement, they said the plan admin must request it. They threw up road blocks at every turn. Asked a bunch of irrevalent questions before they would even discuss the issue trying to block giving me any information. You start out trying to be curtious, but the deceptions and unethical behavior is beyond belief. I must contact someone at my previous employeer to get a release from them to transfer my funds. Then I have to contact them again to start the process.

I am not much for regulations, but insurance company and investment should never be used in the same sentence.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:24 AM   #10
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Fortunately my 401K plan (through Fidelity) doesn't do this -- we use regular shares with regular tickers and we never have shares redeemed for a fee. So presumably my employer just pays the fees, or else we give Fido enough business that they are content with the regular fees charged by the funds themselves. Yuck on these junk fees.
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Old 02-14-2011, 11:40 AM   #11
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The first line off-shore responder passed it off as 'calculations' of a fund within a fund. I asked for the calculation, since it was represented on the statement as 'PIMCO Total Return'. She tried again to blow me off. I said let me speak to your legal department. Then the supervisor got on the phone and told me what a complicated formula it was. I said send me the formula 'again'. When I persisted, only then did she disclose that it was fees.

Then I transferred to the rollover dept. Three times I had to tell him 'No thanks' on rolling it into a John Hancock IRA. When I told him I am sending it to Schwab or Vanguard, he insisted their annual fees were about the same. They are a true POS.
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:20 AM   #12
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Just a follow up on dealing with John Hancock on your 401K.

They only take transfers using their forms, so you cannot initiate it from your current IRA account. ie. Fidelity, Schwab, Vanguard.

They lock you out of your on-line account. This means print out/download all of your statements before you start the transfer.

In their usual non-transparent, borders on fraud, I do not have my final statement, nor know what the cost to transfer was.


In general avoid this company.
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:11 PM   #13
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I just got off of the phone with the sleaze bags at John Hancock. It was fees that amounted to 1.1%.

I am not much for regulations, but insurance company and investment should never be used in the same sentence.
Ouch, that is bad customer service. I got to agree with you about insurance companies and investments.
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:49 PM   #14
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I discovered all kinds of fees when I recently rolled over my work 401K from Diversified Investment Advisors. Unless you pick through the transactions very carefully, you would never know that they were taking out so much money in fees every month. Sooooooo glad to get their grubby little hands off of my money!
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:12 PM   #15
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I just got off of the phone with the sleaze bags at John Hancock. It was fees that amounted to 1.1%. When asked why the fees were not on the statement, they said the plan admin must request it. They threw up road blocks at every turn. Asked a bunch of irrevalent questions before they would even discuss the issue trying to block giving me any information. You start out trying to be curtious, but the deceptions and unethical behavior is beyond belief. I must contact someone at my previous employeer to get a release from them to transfer my funds. Then I have to contact them again to start the process.

I am not much for regulations, but insurance company and investment should never be used in the same sentence.
I have one there, too. It's kinda small and one day I'll get around to transferring it. The paper statement, for which I must pay $3/year, shows a line item for fees, and they are taking units to cover the fees, but this one only adds up to about 0.3% / year.

Left it there to get the company contribution for my final year -- it's a Safe Harbor 401K that requires the company to contribute 3% of your gross per year, even if you don't contribute at all. I can see the owner's face getting red when he realized he would have to put more $ in my 401K almost a year after I was gone. He also grits hes teeth when he's angry. Good for him. ... a real piece of work.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:01 AM   #16
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I have some savings with Edward Jones. Their statements are very clear (to me anyway ).
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In their usual non-transparent, borders on fraud, I do not have my final statement, nor know what the cost to transfer was.


In general avoid this company.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:34 AM   #17
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Does the expense ratio reflect these fees?

I've never seen any line item fees on any of my docs, so I assume everything is assessed within the NAV.

Other than fees related to closure/withdrawal, etc. I would think the ER should reflect all the other costs of owning a fund.
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Old 03-06-2011, 09:50 AM   #18
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Does the expense ratio reflect these fees?

I've never seen any line item fees on any of my docs, so I assume everything is assessed within the NAV.

Other than fees related to closure/withdrawal, etc. I would think the ER should reflect all the other costs of owning a fund.
I don't think so in my case. My statement never reflected the fees. It wasn't until I went into their site and reviewed "all transactions" that I saw a monthly deduction titled "Plan Service Fee". The deduction increased each month as the amount of my portfolio grew. This is in addition to two additional $25 charges listed only as "Expense" (one of them was when I did the rollover, so I assume that is what that charge is for).
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