45 is career old age.

[CaliforniaMan]

Strange. I know quite a few software engineers who are in their mid 50s and very employable (one recently switched from Microsoft to Amazon).

Perhaps you have to also be good at your job if you are older?

I have seen the same thing. Most engineers in the group I have been working with are 50+. It is primarily embedded systems stuff and they seem to have problems finding youngsters who can do it. I ascribe it to trying to write code without knowing what is actually going on behind the scenes. Also 50+ experienced hardware types, especially the ones that can combine analog and digital seem to be in high demand for the same reason.

 

[6miths]

Agree with people who have commented that in medicine, nursing and doctoring, this is not true. For MDs especially, it's hard to only expect 15 years work of someone who doesn't get into practice until age 30 and then doesn't get truly 'experienced' for another 5-10 years. And of course, it's hard to retire in 15 years when you haven't made any money until your mid to late 20s, have accumulated a couple hundred thousand in debt, and have no pension plan. So many doctors are working into their 60s and sometimes beyond. Sometimes beyond when they should be working or in roles that are too demanding, such as long on-call stretches.

 

[papadad111]

OP here.

The article does discuss that many age 45+ need to continue earning income. Are not prepared financially or mentally to hang it up so early and thus go on to other self employed / entrepreneurial endeavors.

I remember growing up and seeing layoffs for the "older" workers in the auto industry - most were between 45 and 55. Having defined benefit helped but today it's all about squirreling away enough and being prepared to either be put out to pasture at 45 or be ready to do your own thing. It's a fact.

This resonated with me - as I am 45. In tech and working toward fire before I get cut loose from career at mega corp.

Part of college education should include getting a real degree in an employable field and that working for mega corp is not lifetime employment

Places like Chins and Japan (lived in both) are not necessarily any different from the usa. Retirement ages differ but to think this happens more in china or Japan is not valid. It's all about performance in most cases and older workers are less risk taking typically and easily replaced with younger cheaper talent who don't rock the boat ...

 

[LoneAspen]

Being in Silicon Valley, and in my late 40's, I don't think I'd have a problem with finding another job in the IT field over the next 5 to 7 years, but that's because I've tried hard to do two things that make me marketable:

1. Kept my skills up, even on my own time and dollar. I never waited for employers to send me to class or learn new things. I do them myself to make myself more marketable.

2. Networked. I don't bother keeping in touch with everybody I've worked with, but those key people who I feel could help me down the road if needed. And it's paid off. The best jobs I've had are those that resulted from somebody I knew helping me to get on board. I never felt age had anything to do with it.

However, that being said, I do definitely think there's a negative component to being 45+, especially if you're trying to break into anything dealing with social media/networking, or bleeding-edge technologies like that. I think, in general, companies looking to recruit in those areas are looking for young blood. Doesn't bother me, as I'm not in that space. But if I were at the age I'm in now looking to break into a social media/networking type position, I wouldn't get my hopes up.

And even though I haven't had difficulty up into my late 40's, I wouldn't want to be looking for another IT job 10 years from now. I'm glad I'm at the tail end of my career with no plans to stay in IT (hoping to FIRE next year at 48) because I have friends in their 60's who are still working and would like to change jobs, but are having a hard time landing somewhere else, and I would bet age has a lot to do with that (regardless of whether it's legal or not for employers to consider that). No employer would admit to age discrimination, but we all know it exists.

 

[timo2]

I've seen all ages in my legal career, but like many others here, with a few exceptions (subject-matter experts) you have to move up or move out. This is why you must always strive to be current, take on projects, etc... but naturally keep in mind that whatever you do, it must advance your career. Altruism (sometimes masquerading as being a "team player") simply means you're doing someone else's job for no additional money.

I've noticed that being a 'team player' is a great place to start the descent to retirement. At some point when I was pondering my next move up, I realized I should be plotting my move out!

More ON topic: We just hired a new PM who is 60 something. She is very experienced and knowledgeable, but irritates the younger IT people because her experience contradicts things that they still think are good ideas to do. I think that situation is typically where some of any friction between older more experienced persons and younger persons occurs.

 

[athena53]

At first I thought this didn't apply to me. Then I thought again. At age 43 I was downsized form a megacorp. In retrospect I'd gotten complacent and had been doing the same thing for too many years. I had a couple of corporate offers but chose a small, independent consulting firm. I loved the work and the clients but it was a bit risky (paid a % of what I billed) and the head honcho decided he didn't like me. Left in 1998 after 3 years. I went to another small firm; also loved the work and the clients but they bet the farm on a major software implementation for a client, staffed up, and after spending $1 million the client pulled the plug. Finances got iffy, so I left (another 3-year tenure). Went to another megacorp this time. Survived an acquisition and lasted there 10 years, when opportunities dried up. Found my last job at age 59, left 18 months later due to ugly politics.


Sometimes I wonder what went wrong. For the most part I loved the work I was doing, enjoyed working with smart people and loved traveling to interesting places on the company dime. I'm computer-friendly, an avid learner (heck, I'm taking Geology for no reason at all right now except for fun) and was once asked to be the president of my professional society. (Turned it down; it's a major commitment and really goes on for 3 years since the President-Elect and Past President are at all Board and Executive Council meetings.) I did serve 2 terms on the Board of Directors.


And yet- I feel I was mostly under-utilized after age 45 or so. I think that at that age you're making a lot of money and they start paying attention to what you're doing but you're a big target when it comes to cutting costs. I was certainly aware of that after my first experience, and worked to keep acquiring new skills, but somehow it wasn't enough. I'm just grateful I saved as much as I did and got out with dignity.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

I'm just grateful I saved as much as I did and got out with dignity.

Thus endeth the lesson.

 

[scrabbler1]

I'm not sure how much of a function of age it was, but I felt my usefulness at my former company begin to decline as I entered my 40s starting in 2003. I still had a unique combination of programming skills and actuarial skills but once many of the specialized end-user reports I generated via our mainframe system could be created from the PC (Excel), the staff in my division didn't need me as much as they did in the 1990s. I didn't have any real interest in learning how to generate them off the PC because for me it was so easy to generate them myself from the mainframe programs.

Some of my decline in usefulness was self-inflicted becasue I was working part-time from 2001 until I ERed in 2008, but that was a price I was surely willing to pay. My division still needed someone with my skills along with supervisory skills to work with the professional programmer/analysts in another department but those opportunities were not nearly as frequent as the (declining) day-to-day stuff I had been doing.

I feel I got out while I was still useful, having just completed one of those big projects with programmer/analysts in another division. But on the inside, I felt as if I was beginning to rot away. The more challenging projects I had on an everyday basis in the 1990s including all the busy Y2K stuff had disappeared, leaving me more and more unfulfilled.

Combine this gradual decline in usefulness with my growing savings and company stock value, and my urge to ER took off. My ER plan's pieces were falling into place by the time I turned 44-45 so when the last piece fell into place, I left.

 

[Options]

...

I feel I got out while I was still useful....But on the inside, I felt as if I was beginning to rot away. The more challenging projects I had on an everyday basis...had disappeared, leaving me more and more unfulfilled.

Combine this gradual decline in usefulness with my growing savings and company stock value, and my urge to ER took off. My ER plan's pieces were falling into place...so when the last piece fell into place, I left.

This describes my current situation exactly. With just 14 weeks left til FIRE and only working 3 days a week during those 14, i am beyond checked out. Paradoxically, this enormous freedom to not care allows me to care (about things I actually do). Still adding value here, but most me is too busy working on the next phase of my life after this one. I am truly an example of one who is retiring to something.

 

[jguild2120]

Not Me

I've worked for a major international oil company for the last 35 years (one the largest in the world). Since the age of 45 I've gotten a raise nearly every two years and several promotions; my salary has increased more than 120% since the age of 45. Several months ago, at the age of 63, I got a nice raise even though they know that I will retire in less than a year. As far as I can tell, I'm not special within the company. I believe the company is sensitive about lawsuits (including age discrimination lawsuits); their mind set appears to be based on performance alone- perform to standards and you are kept. That is the way it should be.

(I'm not an ER so perhaps I should not post to this board. But... it's hard to give up a job when your peaking earnings increase on a regular basis; especially in a job that your are having fun doing.)

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

their mind set appears to be based on performance alone- perform to standards and you are kept. That is the way it should be.

Smart companies value experienced employees, even if they're being paid substantially more than younger employees. While it's true that the knowledge curve flattens out after X years in a field, youth and vitality can't always replace experience.

Reminds me of this little chestnut (and variations thereof):

The huge printing presses of a major Chicago newspaper began malfunctioning on the Saturday before Christmas, putting all the revenue for advertising that was to appear in the Sunday paper in jeopardy. None of the technicians could track down the problem. Finally, a frantic call was made to the retired printer who had worked with these presses for over 40 years. “We’ll pay anything; just come in and fix them,” he was told.
When he arrived, he walked around for a few minutes, surveying the presses; then he approached one of the control panels and opened it. He removed a dime from his pocket, turned a screw 1/4 of a turn, and said, “The presses will now work correctly.” After being profusely thanked, he was told to submit a bill for his work.

The bill arrived a few days later, for $10,000.00! Not wanting to pay such a huge amount for so little work, the printer was told to please itemize his charges, with the hope that he would reduce the amount once he had to identify his services. The revised bill arrived: $1.00 for turning the screw; $9,999.00 for knowing which screw to turn.

See also:
snopes.com: Handyman's Invoice

 

[nash031]

Depending on what your specialty is in the Navy, you might be very attractive to contractors who do work for the Navy in spite of what will be your "advanced" age. I retired from the Navy at age 51 and found that to be the case. The contractors can't get the kind of expertise you have in a functional area from a 25-30 old civilian, no matter how bright they may be.

That said, I personally found working for defense contractors to be fairly unpleasant although many of my friends had opposite reactions. I gutted it out for about 6 years and saved everything I could before retiring. If I could do it again, I would try harder to find something outside the defense contractor area, realizing that the salary would likely not be nearly as high.

I still have at least five years left on AD. The plan in execution is such that I will not have to find work with pension and savings being enough to live comfortably. My wife may continue working (she'll be 39) as she likes what she does. We think, based on current spending, we'd be able to get by on my pension and her salary without touching our savings, in fact adding to it... all the better. I suspect, however, if I'm staying home, she'll want to in short order.

I'm a surface nuclear officer, so I've got a heavy engineering background (including bachelors), and an engineering management masters. I know I could find work with a number of defense contractors. The question is, do I want to? If we were to stay here in San Diego, those jobs are scarce because everyone wants one. I think I'd be more inclined to do something that's more of a hobby (coach triathletes, CrossFit, personal trainer, bike mechanic) than stress about a defense job. If we were to move to someplace like Huntsville, AL (DW's family is there), I might be more inclined to take a defense job. They're more plentiful; competition isn't as high for folks with Navy experience; and the money goes farther. If a gun's to my head today, I think I'd just avoid the entire mil-industrial complex, but that's where my relevant experience is.

The oddity of it is that I feel more inclined to make less money living in a high cost of living area and more in a low cost of living area. Not sure why that is, but...

 

[timwalsh300]

To those who see this in their industry, do you think it is really a matter of age, or rather a common side effect of age, i.e. more experienced workers simply demanding higher compensation?

What if a 45-50 year-old, in the midst of a career change, is willing to accept compensation in line with what a new college graduate might get in the new industry?

Tim

 

[Rusa]

Don't think so. Graduated law school at 40, just hit stride at mega-firm at 50. Stuck around another 8 years until economy killed the practice.

 

[Rick_Head]

Dunno, I got my last promotion at MC when I was 50+. If I hadn't become FI at about that time, and therefore willing to speak my mind rather than be a "yes man" I might have made the C-suite. DD told me I had "no filter". The guy who was given the C-suite told me he wondered why it was him not me, I had no opinion for him. Then he lied to me and I retired. I told him of why he got the job, not me

One of my distant relatives was forced out of the firm he founded. It seems at 97 and dead, you can no longer contribute.

 

[LoneAspen]

What if a 45-50 year-old, in the midst of a career change, is willing to accept compensation in line with what a new college graduate might get in the new industry?

Tim

I've got older friends of mine who tried to do that, and it didn't work out. Employers were hesitant to employ them, thinking that they would get bored, or frustrated at the low pay, and look to leave for a better opportunity the first chance they got.

And they were right to think that way, because that's exactly what my friends said they'd do. They were only willing to take a lower paying job to escape whatever hellhole they were currently in, and maybe learn new skills and do some networking, but the "I'll work for less" thing was never going to tide them over for long.

I've taken pay cuts a couple times in my career to work for startups, but it was always accompanied by a worthwhile chunk of equity to make up for it. I never have, and never would, accept college graduate pay, because I know I'd do the same thing as my friends, and the skeptical employers out there - leave for a better opportunity as soon as one became available.

 

[ERhoosier]

......She is very experienced and knowledgeable, but irritates the younger IT people because her experience contradicts things that they still think are good ideas to do. I think that situation is typically where some of any friction between older more experienced persons and younger persons occurs.

I know this 'youth vs experience' conflict has gone on for decades, but I really think it is worse now. Too many 20-somethings truly believe that a quick web search trumps OTJ experience

 

[robnplunder]

I am in management and experience really helps. In technical field, you can't compete with younger brains. I realized that a SW engineer approaching 40 and decided to get into management. The end result, I put int less hours but get more stress.

 

[SunnyOne]

I've found it somewhat ironic that there's only a sweet spot of about 5 years in Corporate America. Before 35, you're generally considered too junior for some assignments (I've actually heard the phrase: "send in the gray hairs" used in certain situations). Above 40, well if you haven't escalated by then...

I've been fortunate in one respect. In my career specialty, there is continuous demand and always an under supply of skills for the kind of work I do. Experience is also much more highly valued than training or credentials. This has allowed me to never worry about finding more work if I want it - this is fortuitous since I've come to loathe networking events off hours - life is too short to spend it with people I don't care about.

 

[Maenad]

In Quality, in a regulated industry, it seems to depend largely on how well you adapt to change. I've seen first-hand where the prejudice against older workers comes from. I see just enough 50+-year-old QEs who think that "we did it this way 15 years ago and that was good enough" is acceptable, when the FDA is ratcheting up requirements all the time. Other countries' agencies too.

OTOH, you have our VP, who wanted to retire but was wooed to work for us. He's somewhere near normal retirement age, but has kept abreast of all the industry best practices, and is constantly pushing us to be better and better. So, flexibility and the willingness to learn, grow, and change are requirements. A lot of the "old guys" have a hidebound mindset, and it doesn't work well in our industry.

 

[tuixiu]

I've heard it is worse in China, and other East Asian countries. Forced retirement is common. Peer pressure to either move up or quit as one ages is prevalent.

It is worse in China because it isn't just a middle aged thing, and it is spelled out in black and white.

Ever flown on a Chinese airline and wondered how all eight of the flight attendants are young and hot? Because they answered an ad that said seeking single women who are under 25, at least 5'4 with a thin build, and conversational in either English or Japanese.

 

[growing_older]

Originally Posted by timo2
......She is very experienced and knowledgeable, but irritates the younger IT people because her experience contradicts things that they still think are good ideas to do. I think that situation is typically where some of any friction between older more experienced persons and younger persons occurs.

I'm sorry to say I've seen this over and over. Experienced folks, some with hundreds of successful product releases, are often ignored when they try to provide quite sensible guidance to younger "leaders" who are trying to make a mark with their first big project. Often management wants to go with the new, and surprisingly many projects make mistakes that cost huge delays and cost overruns for almost exactly the reasons that similar projects did before. It's often an impossible situation for the older "voice of reason" so hopefully they have saved up their retirement fund and can ER to escape the nonsense.

 

[Jay_Gatsby]

I'm sorry to say I've seen this over and over. Experienced folks, some with hundreds of successful product releases, are often ignored when they try to provide quite sensible guidance to younger "leaders" who are trying to make a mark with their first big project. Often management wants to go with the new, and surprisingly many projects make mistakes that cost huge delays and cost overruns for almost exactly the reasons that similar projects did before. It's often an impossible situation for the older "voice of reason" so hopefully they have saved up their retirement fund and can ER to escape the nonsense.

All too true. Hare vs. Turtle mentality.

I've seem some older workers - who have a retirement stash - decide that they're not done working and start their own companies. Being the boss, they hire younger workers to do the grunt work.