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02-11-2019, 09:11 PM
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#1
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Dryer sheet aficionado
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 28
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5% or more withdraw
Ok all, I see people withdraw 1.5 to 2 up to 4% withdraw rate.
My question has anyone been pulling more than 5 % and if you have been pulling that much, how long have you done that, have you seen a large change in portfolio?
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02-11-2019, 09:23 PM
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#2
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 14,404
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If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend that you go to FIRECalc, ( link here) put in your information, and see the impact that different withdrawal rates have historically had on portfolio balances and survivals. That will probably tell you >much< more than anecdotoal responses from people who have lived through the same basic market conditions over the last decade or two. FIRECalc will show you how a 5% or other withdrawal rate would have done over many, many periods in the past.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with asking here, too. But it won't give you as broad a representation of a lot of varied market conditions, and it won't be tailored to your own selected asset allocation and withdrawal strategy (5% adjusted every year for inflation? 5% of the year-end value every year? FIRECalc can let you experiment with lots of techniques and see how they might have done).
Good luck!
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02-11-2019, 09:37 PM
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#3
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Texas: No Country for Old Men
Posts: 50,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samclem
If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend that you go to FIRECalc, ( link here) put in your information, and see the impact that different withdrawal rates have historically had on portfolio balances and survivals.
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^ What samclem said.
You might also find the chart below interesting. Note that it shows an initial 5% withdrawal rate, adjusted annually for inflation, has been successful 85% of the time (30 year retirement).
__________________
Numbers is hard
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02-11-2019, 10:11 PM
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#4
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 1,172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiresumtime
Ok all, I see people withdraw 1.5 to 2 up to 4% withdraw rate.
My question has anyone been pulling more than 5 % and if you have been pulling that much, how long have you done that, have you seen a large change in portfolio?
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You can take 5% of your portfolio balance and never run out of money....If you are conservative with your A/A like 30% Stocks/70% Bonds, your portfolio will most likely never suffer a market drop of more than 15%....
If you're OK with those numbers, you can proceed.
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02-11-2019, 10:13 PM
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#5
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Washington State
Posts: 2,341
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We're still about five years from retirement, but we plan to live off my wife's pension and my IRA until we can take social security. At that point we won't need my IRA anymore. In our case this works out to roughly 6% to 14% withdrawal rate the first 5-10 years.
This will only work because my wife's pension will supply over 70% of our income. Otherwise, our portfolio would run out in just a few years if we had no other income.
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02-11-2019, 10:30 PM
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#6
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 37,931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
You can take 5% of your portfolio balance and never run out of money....If you are conservative with your A/A like 30% Stocks/70% Bonds, your portfolio will most likely never suffer a market drop of more than 15%....
If you're OK with those numbers, you can proceed.
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But what will your real (i.e. inflation adjusted) income trajectory look like over a long period of time?
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
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02-11-2019, 10:33 PM
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#7
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,366
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I'm at about 6% for the past two years and the next 6 or so. Delaying SS and pension until 70 and living off the portfolio only until then. As a temporary thing it works fine and has a decent success rate. I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a long-term plan.
Basically, other than market ups and downs, we have had a fairly constant portfolio value. We have the advantage of being able to turn on income early if we need to, so we have a safety net.
You can run this case on FIRECalc by having extra income come online 10 years after retirement, or whatever fits your case. Good time to try 5% and 6% for 30 years too just to get a feel for it.
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02-11-2019, 10:38 PM
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#8
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 1,172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1
But what will your real (i.e. inflation adjusted) income trajectory look like over a long period of time?
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That's easy... Just tell me the Portfolio Returns and Inflation rate over that long period of time and we'll draw you a Graph.....
Or you can download the VPW tool and Change the WR to 5% and backtest against Market History.
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02-11-2019, 10:40 PM
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#9
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Spending the Kids Inheritance and living in Chicago
Posts: 16,972
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OP - It could be fine for a limited number of years, then cut it back to 3% when SS comes. Basically SS replaces whatever the amount over 3.5->4% was.
But if you are planning starting at 5% and increasing for inflation each year, you will probably run out of money.
__________________
Fortune favors the prepared mind. ... Louis Pasteur
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02-11-2019, 11:02 PM
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#10
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunset
OP - It could be fine for a limited number of years, then cut it back to 3% when SS comes. Basically SS replaces whatever the amount over 3.5->4% was.
But if you are planning starting at 5% and increasing for inflation each year, you will probably run out of money.
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+1
If you look back at the recent years, the market return has been so good that a 5% WR still leave a lot of dough. No guarantee that this will continue in the future. In fact, 2018 just ended up being a disappointment.
And who's to say that 2019, or 2020 will not be the same as 2018. And we have not had a recession for a while. It may be time to have one.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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02-11-2019, 11:16 PM
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#11
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rio Grande Valley
Posts: 37,931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut-Throat
That's easy... Just tell me the Portfolio Returns and Inflation rate over that long period of time and we'll draw you a Graph.....
Or you can download the VPW tool and Change the WR to 5% and backtest against Market History.
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The latter is the way to do it. I imagine over many years there are going to be periods where you see a much larger drop than 15% real in the value of the portfolio.
__________________
Retired since summer 1999.
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02-11-2019, 11:23 PM
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#12
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 1,172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audreyh1
The latter is the way to do it. I imagine over many years there are going to be periods where you see a much larger drop than 15% real in the value of the portfolio.
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Sure.... What I said was a 'market drop' of 15%.... the portfolio will probably drop over time due to withdrawals.
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02-12-2019, 04:15 AM
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#13
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Beaverton
Posts: 1,382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animorph
I'm at about 6% for the past two years and the next 6 or so. Delaying SS and pension until 70 and living off the portfolio only until then. As a temporary thing it works fine and has a decent success rate. I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a long-term plan.
Basically, other than market ups and downs, we have had a fairly constant portfolio value. We have the advantage of being able to turn on income early if we need to, so we have a safety net.
You can run this case on FIRECalc by having extra income come online 10 years after retirement, or whatever fits your case. Good time to try 5% and 6% for 30 years too just to get a feel for it.
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Mine has been in the upper 4's the last two years due to paying huge health insurance costs. I'm not freaked because the portfolio has grown over $200k even with this percentage. I just set aside money that will get me to 64.5. Then I'll have Medicare that will give me $600/mth more so I can drop WR and ride it to 70 where my WR will be like 2%.
__________________
Jump in, the water's warm.
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02-12-2019, 06:33 AM
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#14
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,306
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I agree with the recommendations to use FireCalc. I wanted to add that if your strategy is to start with 5% and then increase for inflation every year, it's riskier if you need every dime of that money for essentials. If you can cut back your withdrawals in a bad market and reduce spending in areas such as travel and charity donations, you have a better chance of not outliving your savings.
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02-12-2019, 06:49 AM
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#15
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta Suburb
Posts: 1,499
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Per Firecalc with a 60/40 AA and a 5% WR.
#years Success rate
40 years........46%
30 years........67%
20 years........93%
15 years.......100%
ETA: Like others, I would use Firecalc instead of individual results.
__________________
"Oh, twice as much ain't twice as good
And can't sustain like one half could
It's wanting more that's gonna send me to my knees" - John Mayer
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02-12-2019, 07:55 AM
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#16
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiresumtime
Ok all, I see people withdraw 1.5 to 2 up to 4% withdraw rate.
My question has anyone been pulling more than 5 % and if you have been pulling that much, how long have you done that, have you seen a large change in portfolio?
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Is that 5% withdrawal initially until SS would kick in and then throttle back on the WD rate? Or 5% forever on a go forward basis? I'm closer to 5% now, but once SS kicks in I'll be lowering my WD rate, over then 35 years I've planned that would work out to like 3.3% WD rate annually.
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02-12-2019, 08:53 AM
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#17
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Syracuse
Posts: 3,501
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First 5 years I stuck to the plan of 4.5% non inflation adjusted withdrawals.
Got lucky and the pot grew over 30% after withdrawals.
At start of year 6 I decided to reset using the now larger portfolio amount and do a 5.5% withdrawl inflation adjusted for the next 5 years. Only one year in and I didn't actually withdraw that much year 1 as no new car or major home repairs came into play.
But I'm planning for SS in 10 years that will be a healthy percentage of spending.
__________________
“No, not rich. I am a poor man with money, which is not the same thing"
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02-12-2019, 09:08 AM
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#18
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Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 35,712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
^ What samclem said.
You might also find the chart below interesting. Note that it shows an initial 5% withdrawal rate, adjusted annually for inflation, has been successful 85% of the time (30 year retirement).
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This chart stops in 1975. At this point, we have data for a 30-year retirement up to 1989.
With the bull market from 2009 till now, we stopped talking about the hapless 2000 retiree, who would see the S&P nearly halved in 2002, rebounded to be almost halved again in 2009. We used to talk about that a lot during the Great Recession.
I wonder if anyone has updated a theoretical 60/40 portfolio with 4% WR for such a retiree.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky (1879-1940)
"Those Who Can Make You Believe Absurdities Can Make You Commit Atrocities" - Voltaire (1694-1778)
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02-12-2019, 09:43 AM
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#19
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REWahoo
^ What samclem said.
You might also find the chart below interesting. Note that it shows an initial 5% withdrawal rate, adjusted annually for inflation, has been successful 85% of the time (30 year retirement).
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Is that the right chart? Just asking as I don't see how it relates to success % over the time period. Or perhaps I'm not reading it right.
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02-12-2019, 09:51 AM
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#20
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Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Madison
Posts: 1,337
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I'm not sure this is the time to try and test a 5% withdrawal rate since the bull market has had an almost 10 year run. The next 10 years will probably not be nearly as kind. As Firecalc shows, historically it can work for approx. 20 years. If you just need a 5 year window until you get SS or pension, sure go for it. But then cut back to at least a 4% WR at that point.
__________________
Wild Bill shoulda taken more out of his IRA when he could have. . . .
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