529 or Other for College Savings?

[38Chevy454]

My wife and I want to contribute some money to my 10 year old niece and 8 year old nephew for college savings. Probably $5K each kid, $10K total; might go up to $10K per kid depending how taxes work out this year

Here in New Mexico, we have a 529 plan that also allows for full state tax deduction. That is nice and would have some benefit for us, as right now we are still working. Niece and nephew are good kids and college is a definite plan for them. Both doing great in school and attend a STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) charter school where they are in top of their classes.

I know sometimes people use a Roth account instead, or other savings tools. It seems to me the NM 529 plan is going to be hard to beat from financial aspect. It has full state tax deductibility for us now, assets grow tax free, has tax free withdrawl for the college expenses, and has pretty good flexibility if things change. Has decent low-fee index funds to invest in, administered by Oppenheimer Funds. Seems like not much to lose and only to benefit.

Here is a summary of the plan:
https://www.theeducationplan.com/OFI...-07-162335.xml

I appreciate any opinion and discussion. Interested to learn what others have done and how you evaluated the options. Thanks for the help, Terry

[rodi]

I chose to go the 529 route for my kids for the following reasons:

- money is technically in the owners name, with the child designated, but not owner. This is different than some of the other college savings vehicles that give the child full access to funds on their 18th birthday.

- money can be switched from one child to another. So if one child goes to a local community college, and then a local university on scholarship, and the other child goes to a private school with no scholarship - you'd be able to take the money from the child that didn't need the $$ and use it for the kid that needed the $$.

I'm assuming my kids are going to college - but that' more than 5 years from now and a lot could happen. I like the fact that if a child doesn't go to college, I can reclaim the money (with a penalty on the gains) for myself. Or if one of my kids gets a deal like our niece got - full ride to nursing school (free tuition, dorm, stipend) in exchange for 2 years of work at that hospital... - I'd be able to divert the money to the other child.

[donheff]

I went with 529's also.

[retire2020]

529 plans for all three kids for the same reasons rodi mentioned. I had about 17K in UGMA account for my daughter but I closed it last year and transferred that money in her 529.

[38Chevy454]

Sounds like the 529 plan is the way so far.

Not sure it affects the discussion, but my niece and nephew live in CO. The NM plan lets the money be used for any US or even some foreign schools, and the beneficiary can be almost anyone you want. It does not have be your own kid and your own state universities.

[fh2000]

I never converted our 2 kids' UTMA/UGMA accounts. The risk that people talk about for this type of account is what if kids take the money and buy cars instead.

I am lucky that my 2 kids probably will not do that. DD is a sophomore and have enough to finish college. DS is waiting for college acceptance letters now (got one already so going to college for sure).

I file their individual taxes for them since they were little so their account gains did not incur much tax if at all.

[sengsational]

Use the Roths for yourself and the 529s for the kids (but only after your retirement is covered). The younger the kids, the more advantage, since the gains are not taxed for tuition, room and board, books, etc. Avoid UGMA because that shows as an asset of the child and will be 'taxed' by the FAFSA formula at like 25% or something. Since you are not the parent, I'm not sure if your 529 will even show in the FAFSA, at least in the first year. What a nice aunt and uncle you are!!

[youbet]

Coverdell up to the $2k limit then 529b.

[hausfrau]

We have a 529 plan for our 5 y.o. kid. We already fund our retirement plans (401K, Roth). We have about 26K in there right now . Most of it was funded when I worked FT. Now we just put $200/mo. in there, but I'm thinking of putting more money in there rather than our taxable accounts. I think the chances of her going to college are greater than the possible 10% penalty we may incur.

I'm worried about college costs. I'm not sure college tuition will really go down all that much in the future. There are still an awful lot of full pay kids out there. I started my kiddo's 529 plan five years ago and things haven't changed that much. I'm not really counting on things changing that much in the next 13 years either.

[Mulligan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet Coverdell up to the $2k limit then 529b.

Are you referring to the "Opportunity Credit", Youbet? That by far is the most bang for the buck. You get the additional $500 to $2500, but the last $500 is not dollar for dollar. I believe income restriction is $80k single and $160k couple with quick phase outs above that. I almost screwed up with this. You do not want to overload your 529 where you have to use it and not the opportunity credit as it is a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes. You also cannot use them both for the same expenses.

[karluk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hausfrau We have a 529 plan for our 5 y.o. kid. We already fund our retirement plans (401K, Roth). We have about 26K in there right now . Most of it was funded when I worked FT. Now we just put $200/mo. in there, but I'm thinking of putting more money in there rather than our taxable accounts.

Overfunding a 529 plan can easily backfire, so don't overdo it. I'm sure most people in the general population are in no danger whatsover of overfunding a college savings plan, but the members of er.org tend to be aggressive savers so it's important to be aware of the pitfalls.

1. Most people know about the taxes and 10% penalty on unqualified distributions. Both can bite you. You have put after-tax money into a tax shelter in the hopes of not paying additional taxes later. But if you need to take unqualified distributions, you end up not only owing the 10% penalty but you've also converted what could have been tax-favored long term capital gains into 529 profits that will get taxed at the higher ordinary income rates.

2. Even qualified distributions may result in taxes owed. That's because you can't take full advantage of educational tax credits by using withdrawals from a 529 plan. IRS rules say that you can take the tax credit or the tax-free 529 withdrawal, but not both. For the American Opportunity Credit, for example, unless you can fund the first $4,000 of your child's college expenses from money outside the 529 plan, you will have to pay taxes on $4,000 of withdrawals in order to claim the American Opportunity Credit. Again, this is taxed at ordinary income tax rates, not as taxed-advantaged LTCG. You have avoided the 10% penalty in this case but not the unfavorable tax treatment.

3. Costs matter. Every 529 plan charges some expenses in addition to the underlying expenses of the mutual funds you are holding. The extra costs vary widely depending on which state's plan you are enrolled in, but the costs are always higher than holding low cost index funds in an IRA or taxable account. You won't get any report of how much the extra costs are eating away at your gains, but over time you can expect the 529 plan to do worse than making the same investments elsewhere, simply because of the extra costs.

[Mulligan]

2. Even qualified distributions may result in taxes owed. That's because you can't take full advantage of educational tax credits by using withdrawals from a 529 plan. IRS rules say that you can take the tax credit or the tax-free 529 withdrawal, but not both. For the American Opportunity Credit, for example, unless you can fund the first $4,000 of your child's college expenses from money outside the 529 plan, you will have to pay taxes on $4,000 of withdrawals in order to claim the American Opportunity Credit. Again, this is taxed at ordinary income tax rates, not as taxed-advantaged LTCG. You have avoided the 10% penalty in this case buy not the unfavorable tax treatment.

I am very tight on this. Last year, I had to drop $6k in my child's 529, to get my state AGI under income limits to snag a $2500 pension exemption tax credit. If I understand correctly there is enough flexibility in the 529 plans legitimate use of funds that I can still pull this off without penalty. The opportunity credit is very narrow in uses of it. I may have to forego the last $500 of the credit and just take the dollar for dollar $2000 credit.

[hausfrau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by karluk Overfunding a 529 plan can easily backfire, so don't overdo it. I'm sure most people in the general population are in no danger whatsover of overfunding a college savings plan, but the members of er.org tend to be aggressive savers so it's important to be aware of the pitfalls. 1. Most people know about the taxes and 10% penalty on unqualified distributions. Both can bite you. You have put after-tax money into a tax shelter in the hopes of not paying additional taxes later. But if you need to take unqualified distributions, you end up not only owing the 10% penalty but you've also converted what could have been tax-favored long term capital gains into 529 profits that will get taxed at the higher ordinary income rates. 2. Even qualified distributions may result in taxes owed. That's because you can't take full advantage of educational tax credits by using withdrawals from a 529 plan. IRS rules say that you can take the tax credit or the tax-free 529 withdrawal, but not both. For the American Opportunity Credit, for example, unless you can fund the first $4,000 of your child's college expenses from money outside the 529 plan, you will have to pay taxes on $4,000 of withdrawals in order to claim the American Opportunity Credit. Again, this is taxed at ordinary income tax rates, not as taxed-advantaged LTCG. You have avoided the 10% penalty in this case but not the unfavorable tax treatment. 3. Costs matter. Every 529 plan charges some expenses in addition to the underlying expenses of the mutual funds you are holding. The extra costs vary widely depending on which state's plan you are enrolled in, but the costs are always higher than holding low cost index funds in an IRA or taxable account. You won't get any report of how much the extra costs are eating away at your gains, but over time you can expect the 529 plan to do worse than making the same investments elsewhere, simply because of the extra costs.

All very good points. Thank you. In the back of my mind I think we should be prepared for the cost of private college, just in case. Maybe I'll just fund enough for a state college in the 529 and call it a day.

[rodi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by karluk Overfunding a 529 plan can easily backfire, so don't overdo it. I'm sure most people in the general population are in no danger whatsover of overfunding a college savings plan, but the members of er.org tend to be aggressive savers so it's important to be aware of the pitfalls. 1. Most people know about the taxes and 10% penalty on unqualified distributions. Both can bite you. You have put after-tax money into a tax shelter in the hopes of not paying additional taxes later. But if you need to take unqualified distributions, you end up not only owing the 10% penalty but you've also converted what could have been tax-favored long term capital gains into 529 profits that will get taxed at the higher ordinary income rates. 2. Even qualified distributions may result in taxes owed. That's because you can't take full advantage of educational tax credits by using withdrawals from a 529 plan. IRS rules say that you can take the tax credit or the tax-free 529 withdrawal, but not both. For the American Opportunity Credit, for example, unless you can fund the first $4,000 of your child's college expenses from money outside the 529 plan, you will have to pay taxes on $4,000 of withdrawals in order to claim the American Opportunity Credit. Again, this is taxed at ordinary income tax rates, not as taxed-advantaged LTCG. You have avoided the 10% penalty in this case but not the unfavorable tax treatment. 3. Costs matter. Every 529 plan charges some expenses in addition to the underlying expenses of the mutual funds you are holding. The extra costs vary widely depending on which state's plan you are enrolled in, but the costs are always higher than holding low cost index funds in an IRA or taxable account. You won't get any report of how much the extra costs are eating away at your gains, but over time you can expect the 529 plan to do worse than making the same investments elsewhere, simply because of the extra costs.

To clarify this - please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you take unqualified distributions from a 529 the 10% penalty is ONLY on the earnings/gains, not the initial (already taxed) contributions. Similar to a ROTH.

[karluk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodi To clarify this - please correct me if I'm wrong. If you take unqualified distributions from a 529 the 10% penalty is ONLY on the earnings/gains, not the initial (already taxed) contributions. Similar to a ROTH.

Yeah, you're right, rodi. I realized that I wasn't being completely accurate when I wrote my original post, but I decided to sacrifice precision in order to avoid making my post unnecessarily complicated. Perhaps a poor decision.

For my situation, the fact that the tax is due only on investment gains shows up dramatically in the accounts of my two children. DD is currently a junior in college, so her account has been more conservatively invested and has relatively little investment gains subject to possible tax. DS is a graduating high school senior, so his account has been more aggressively invested and for a longer time. He has much higher investment gains. I am currently uncertain if I will need to pay taxes on some of his withdrawals in order to claim the American Opportunity Credit. If I do, the tax hit will be higher than it would be for DD, because he has a much higher proportion of investment gains to untaxable contributions.

[hausfrau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by karluk Yeah, you're right, rodi. I realized that I wasn't being completely accurate when I wrote my original post, but I decided to sacrifice precision in order to avoid making my post unnecessarily complicated. Perhaps a poor decision.

It's still a valid point since I believe the unqualified earnings are taxed at ordinary rates instead of capital gain rates. Since DD is an only child, we have no one else to transfer the money to either.

I think I'll leave our contributions as is and concentrate on taxable savings.

[38Chevy454]

Thanks to all for some great discussion on this. Very helpful to increase my understanding, and hopefully good for many others as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sengsational Use the Roths for yourself and the 529s for the kids (but only after your retirement is covered). The younger the kids, the more advantage, since the gains are not taxed for tuition, room and board, books, etc. Avoid UGMA because that shows as an asset of the child and will be 'taxed' by the FAFSA formula at like 25% or something. Since you are not the parent, I'm not sure if your 529 will even show in the FAFSA, at least in the first year. What a nice aunt and uncle you are!!

I am already maxing out our pre-tax retirement savings plans, and working to have additional after-tax savings as well. Fortunately (or is that unfortunately??), unless something changes my niece and nephew will not get any need-based college money. They may even have tough time to qualify for loans since both my sister and bro-in-law have good jobs with too much income to potentially qualify.

Quote:

Originally Posted by youbet Coverdell up to the $2k limit then 529b.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulligan Are you referring to the "Opportunity Credit", Youbet? That by far is the most bang for the buck. You get the additional $500 to $2500, but the last $500 is not dollar for dollar. I believe income restriction is $80k single and $160k couple with quick phase outs above that. I almost screwed up with this. You do not want to overload your 529 where you have to use it and not the opportunity credit as it is a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes. You also cannot use them both for the same expenses.

In my case the full state tax deduction seems to be more valuable? If I understand the Coverdell correctly it is like an IRA, all after-tax money? So there is no tax benefit for me now. I work hard for my money and I work even harder to pay as little in taxes as i have to The 529 gives the same tax-free asset growth and tax-free withdrawl capability, so why is the Coverdell better?

Quote:

Originally Posted by karluk Overfunding a 529 plan can easily backfire, so don't overdo it. I'm sure most people in the general population are in no danger whatsover of overfunding a college savings plan, but the members of er.org tend to be aggressive savers so it's important to be aware of the pitfalls. 1. Most people know about the taxes and 10% penalty on unqualified distributions. Both can bite you. You have put after-tax money into a tax shelter in the hopes of not paying additional taxes later. But if you need to take unqualified distributions, you end up not only owing the 10% penalty but you've also converted what could have been tax-favored long term capital gains into 529 profits that will get taxed at the higher ordinary income rates. 2. Even qualified distributions may result in taxes owed. That's because you can't take full advantage of educational tax credits by using withdrawals from a 529 plan. IRS rules say that you can take the tax credit or the tax-free 529 withdrawal, but not both. For the American Opportunity Credit, for example, unless you can fund the first $4,000 of your child's college expenses from money outside the 529 plan, you will have to pay taxes on $4,000 of withdrawals in order to claim the American Opportunity Credit. Again, this is taxed at ordinary income tax rates, not as taxed-advantaged LTCG. You have avoided the 10% penalty in this case but not the unfavorable tax treatment. 3. Costs matter. Every 529 plan charges some expenses in addition to the underlying expenses of the mutual funds you are holding. The extra costs vary widely depending on which state's plan you are enrolled in, but the costs are always higher than holding low cost index funds in an IRA or taxable account. You won't get any report of how much the extra costs are eating away at your gains, but over time you can expect the 529 plan to do worse than making the same investments elsewhere, simply because of the extra costs.

Thanks for the extra detail on withdrawls and potential tax effects. I will not be doing this as hidden, my sister and bro-in-law will be fully aware so that we don;t screw up the withdrawl process.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulligan Are you referring to the "Opportunity Credit", Youbet? That by far is the most bang for the buck. You get the additional $500 to $2500, but the last $500 is not dollar for dollar. I believe income restriction is $80k single and $160k couple with quick phase outs above that. I almost screwed up with this. You do not want to overload your 529 where you have to use it and not the opportunity credit as it is a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes. You also cannot use them both for the same expenses.

No. I'm talking about the Coverdell Educational Savings Acct. It's an IRA-like savings vehicle. If your income is below an amount (around $170k MFJ if I recall correctly - you can Google) you can invest $2k per child per year. Once in the acct, you manage it DIY like a self-directed Roth IRA. Withdrawals are tax free (like a ROTH) as long as the money is spent on the child's education, with a very broad definition of "education." Unlike a 529b, money can be used for K through grad school expenses including home computers, tutoring, etc. So, much more flexibility.

The big downside to a Coverdell is the $2k per child annual limit. So I fund that first, then put whatever else I can afford to give to the grand kids into their 529b. Usually the 529b amount is the $20k limit Illinois puts on state tax deductibility.

People who do only 529b's are missing a good deal with the Coverdells. Any brokerage house that does IRA's will do a Coverdell. I use Schwab.

[youbet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 38Chevy454 In my case the full state tax deduction seems to be more valuable? If I understand the Coverdell correctly it is like an IRA, all after-tax money? So there is no tax benefit for me now. I work hard for my money and I work even harder to pay as little in taxes as i have to The 529 gives the same tax-free asset growth and tax-free withdrawl capability, so why is the Coverdell better?

I didn't say a Coverdell was better. I said a combo of Coverdell + 529b was working best for us. You have to look at your own situation and decide.

You are correct that money deposited in a Coverdell does not get you a state tax deduction. But, in Illinois, we can only deduct a total of $20k of 529b contribution regardless of the number of children you are funding and the total amount you contribute. For example, a total $30k 529b contribution still nets only a $20k deduction which is the max allowed. I do the 529b $20k and for the next $2k per child I use the more flexible Coverdell.

[sengsational]

It was a long time ago, but I think I passed-over the Coverdells since I could drop $50k per kid into the 529s without tax consequences. Something about 5 year averaging. Got lucky on a real estate deal and dropped the profits into the 529s. One account is drained now, but DD has an engineering job lined-up. DD2 is at a state school, so won't go through her whole account balance. I've been yanking $ out up to the amounts of scholarships and grants, which escape the 10% penalty, but I think my neices, nephews, or (some day) grandchildren might have a benefactor, hehe!