Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-06-2006, 11:36 PM   #61
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,275
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
I pay for fighter planes that I don't necessarily need/want/use, and defense is 50%-80% of the national budget. We could solve the health care "crisis" for far less.

Way wrong... I saw a couple of nights ago.. 52% of the budget is SS and healthcare... don't know about defense, but I think it is less than 5% now..
__________________

__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-06-2006, 11:44 PM   #62
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,275
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawny Dangle
Then let's debunk the "running to the doctor for a cold" myth too.

Actually, I was in the emergency room last year with my daughter, who'd had a seizure right in front of my eyes earlier that evening (so my ass was covered re. needing to be in the ER). We waited 4 hours in a room full of genuinely quite sick people. Some of them had been waiting longer than us.

One woman had three little kids with her and all of them were coughing. She explained to the ER doctor that she didn't have insurance and she couldn't take her kids to the doctor because she didn't have one and didn't have time to find one because she worked two jobs. The first kid got a cough that lasted several weeks. Now all the kids were coughing and she didn't know what to do.

So she brought them all in after she got off work. And yes, it was a big waste of money for everyone, especially for her, since she had to pay cash. She did get to hear the doctor say that the kids were going to be ok; he was very kind about it and she was relieved. I saw her put her kids on the bus to take them home, so no car in that family.

I guess the moral for her was that she shouldn't have had the kids if she couldn't afford medical care for them and didn't have time to take care of them because she had to work so much. Maybe in the future, families like this will get "what they deserve" and the kids won't get any medical treatment at all. That'll teach 'em.

Eat the poor! Soylent Green is poor people!
A poor place to take your kids for a cough... in Houston, there are a number of free or low cost clinics you can go to if you are poor... and I would bet this lady qualifies as poor...

And this is paid for by the citizens of Harris County... we pay a property tax for the county hospital district...
__________________

__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 12:18 AM   #63
Dryer sheet wannabe
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 23
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud

Way wrong... I saw a couple of nights ago.. 52% of the budget is SS and healthcare... don't know about defense, but I think it is less than 5% now..
Once again conjecture triumphs over data. Upthread is a link to the OMB that you might want to look at.

Medicare and Social Security have a mandatory dedicated revenue stream and payouts, and do account for the majority of government spending.

Of the money that Congress gets to spend (the discretionary budget), over 50% is spent on the military. A very nice and extremely large (1.8MB) graphical depiction of this in 2004 can be seen here.
__________________
dylar is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 12:40 AM   #64
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mesa
Posts: 3,588
Re: 6 stitches = $800

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/NationalHealt....asp#TopOfPage
Quote:
The Office of the Actuary determines the amount of money used for the purchase of health care goods and services on an annual basis. *These estimates include expenditures as well as the source of financing for these purchases.

Major findings are as follows: *The U.S. spent $1.9 trillion on health care, or $6,280 per person, in 2004. *Health spending rose 7.9 percent in 2004, slower than the 8.2 percent growth in 2003 and 9.1 percent growth in 2002.

The health spending share of GDP grew 0.1 percentage point to 16.0 percent in 2004. *This was a smaller increase in share than experienced in recent years as economic growth in 2004 grew at its fastest rate since 1989
I could cite a number of personal situations that support the idea that our healthcare system often fails to provide reasonable service for reasonable cost. *But it would be easy to criticize my personal experience as nothing more than anecdotal evidence.

The argument so far seems to be about whether healthcare should be considered a national concern and therefore the subject of more government control (like defense, food and drugs, aviation, etc.) or whether it is more like a commodity that should be treated like an item you buy from Walmart.

So I don't know the answer. *But the overall data described above seems to me like an indication that our present healthcare system is not working very well -- or at least not very efficiently. *So forget about why you don't like other people's proposals. *What do you think should be done to improve the system? *

__________________
sgeeeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 12:42 AM   #65
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Re: 6 stitches = $800


Way wrong... I saw a couple of nights ago.. 52% of the budget is SS and healthcare... don't know about defense, but I think it is less than 5% now..


and

Once again conjecture triumphs over data. Upthread is a link to the OMB that you might want to look at.
Medicare and Social Security have a mandatory dedicated revenue stream and payouts, and do account for the majority of government spending.
Of the money that Congress gets to spend (the discretionary budget), over 50% is spent on the military.


Let's all put the spending in perspective.

First, it is disingenuous to exclude the >50% of the federal budget and then say that over 50% of what's left is defense, in order to make defense look like a big culprit. Since when shouldn't we look at the entire picture? Congress gets to legislate and spend SS and Medicare, too. It's all on the table.

Defense is about 25% of US Federal Government spending. Entitlement programs (primarily SS and Medicare) are over 50% and increasing.

And by the way, something many people have never learned forgotten is that the primary constitutional purpose of the Federal Government is defense of the people. There is no role mandated for retirement or health care.

Of course we can continue to argue whether our defense funds are well spent, but the importance of that expenditure vs. entitlements shouldn't be in question.

I suspect we will eventually need to socialize our medicine. What that's liekly to do is level the bell curve. Today the TOP US health care is the best in the world, yet some people get poor/no health care and are screwed. Nationalized health care is likely to normalize it to a more mediocre level for everybody. If you want the best beyond that, you'll pay big time.
__________________
Surfdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 02:11 AM   #66
Moderator Emeritus
Nords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Oahu
Posts: 26,617
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surfdaddy
First, it is disingenuous to exclude the >50% of the federal budget and then say that over 50% of what's left is defense, in order to make defense look like a big culprit. Since when shouldn't we look at the entire picture? Congress gets to legislate and spend SS and Medicare, too. It's all on the table.
Defense is about 25% of US Federal Government spending. Entitlement programs (primarily SS and Medicare) are over 50% and increasing.
I think it's asking too much for this board to agree on a common definition of defense spending percentage...

... when we can't even agree on a common definition of net worth.
__________________
*
*

The book written on E-R.org, "The Military Guide to Financial Independence and Retirement", on sale now! For more info see "About Me" in my profile.
I don't spend much time here anymore, so please send me a PM. Thanks.
Nords is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 04:52 AM   #67
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ladelfina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,713
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
I think it's asking too much for this board to agree on a common definition of defense spending percentage...

... when we can't even agree on a common definition of net worth.
Nords, you're right on that score!*

Surfdaddy.. it's also disingenuous to say defense spending is only 25% of the budget by including the massive and separate pension/insurance scheme that is Social Security, whose money is earmarked to go right back (more or less) to those who paid in to it.

I haven't "forgotten" what's in the Constitution.
Constitutionally, the gov't. is also supposed to "promote the general welfare"..

Quote:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Justice and 'domestic tranquility' come before defense in the list, if that means anything. (Oops.. sorry Katrina folks. the National guard ain't here to help.. they's all fightin' in Iraq.)




P.S., Dylar.. your graphic link gave me a "forbidden" warning!
Quote:
Once again conjecture triumphs over data.
Excellent!

Quote:
I saw a couple of nights ago.. 52% of the budget is SS and healthcare...* don't know about defense, but I think it is less than 5% now..
TexasProud, where did you "see" this ?* *FIVE percent?!??! Don't you know there's a WAR on, boy?*
__________________
ladelfina is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 09:00 AM   #68
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
Re: 6 stitches = $800

We, the people, are forming a government; and, of course, we expect it to promote our general welfare - as opposed to not serving our welfare...
__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 09:56 AM   #69
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,666
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
TexasProud, where did you "see" this ?* *FIVE percent?!??! Don't you know there's a WAR on, boy?*
Yes, but we are on the offense, not defense (so what is the offensive spending percentage)
__________________
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
(Ancient Indian Proverb)"
Zathras is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 10:57 AM   #70
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,275
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
P.S., Dylar.. your graphic link gave me a "forbidden" warning! Excellent!
TexasProud, where did you "see" this ?* *FIVE percent?!??! Don't you know there's a WAR on, boy?*
No problem... I said it was memory.. and obviously it was wrong..

But, saying that SS and health is NOT budget is like saying your house note is not part of your budget since you have not discretionary...

And remember.. they DO have discretion.. they could vote to stop paying SS alltogether...* nothing prevents this..
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 11:38 AM   #71
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ladelfina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,713
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
But, saying that SS and health is NOT budget is like saying your house note is not part of your budget
If my sister loans me money, and I know I have to pay it back in full, I would be foolish to include that money in my net worth; it's a liability, not an asset. Paying it back would be part of my budget in one way, but in another way I shouldn't think of it as money I can use indefinitely for other things.

At some point I have to be realistic and look at my true financial picture which is my budget without that money, in other words, what I really have available to spend after I pay her back. That's why I don't think it's wrong to look at discretionary spending as a more true benchmark.. it's the money the government chooses to spend freely, not money we have given it under very certain circumstances to hold in safekeeping for us, for pensions and disability only.

If I bought a new car and said "look, I only spent 25% of my income on this car" (not disclosing my sister's loan part of the income), you might say, "ok!". But if you knew that I had really spent 50% or 80% of my income aside from the loan, you'd probably be right in thinking I was a bit foolhardy.

That's where I am coming from..


I guess you're right that the Congress could vote SS out of existence, but they would be taking a big risk.
__________________
ladelfina is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 12:08 PM   #72
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,666
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
But, saying that SS and health is NOT budget is like saying your house note is not part of your budget since you have not discression...

And remember.. they DO have discression.. they could vote to stop paying SS alltogether...* nothing prevents this..
Very good point. I really dislike the percentages based on 'discrecionary spending'. They are misleading and used for sound bites in political commercials.
__________________
"We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
(Ancient Indian Proverb)"
Zathras is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 02:25 PM   #73
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Constitutionally, the gov't. is also supposed to "promote the general welfare".

I'm not disagreeing. But the clear and primary purpose of the Feds in the constitution is defense. If you read the sections, a substantial portion is devoted to discussions about militias, military training, creating a Navy, etc. The other parts of the constitution talk about the branches of government, creation of laws, roles of legislators, taxation, etc.

Even though I don't necessarily agree with all of the military escapades we've been on lately, to say something like "we spend so much money on defense" as if it is an unreasonable activity of the Federal government, is just unfair.

The fact is that defense is only 25% of the spending, we already spend double that on SS and Medicare (health care). Perhaps we should be revamping those programs to more wisely spend the money and cover more people efficiently, rather than complaining about the 25% we spend that is a clear and designated purpose of the government in the first place.
__________________
Surfdaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-07-2006, 02:43 PM   #74
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,275
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
If my sister loans me money, and I know I have to pay it back in full, I would be foolish to include that money in my net worth; it's a liability, not an asset. Paying it back would be part of my budget in one way, but in another way I shouldn't think of it as money I can use indefinitely for other things.

At some point I have to be realistic and look at my true financial picture which is my budget without that money, in other words, what I really have available to spend after I pay her back. That's why I don't think it's wrong to look at discretionary spending as a more true benchmark.. it's the money the government chooses to spend freely, not money we have given it under very certain circumstances to hold in safekeeping for us, for pensions and disability only.

If I bought a new car and said "look, I only spent 25% of my income on this car" (not disclosing my sister's loan part of the income), you might say, "ok!". But if you knew that I had really spent 50% or 80% of my income aside from the loan, you'd probably be right in thinking I was a bit foolhardy.

That's where I am coming from..


I guess you're right that the Congress could vote SS out of existence, but they would be taking a big risk.
You must be one of those people who actually think there is MONEY that the government has set aside for your retirement benefits... sorry to tell you... they spent it..

And yes, it would be a big risk... but saying that 'it is my money so they have to pay it back to me' like the example of your loan is just wrong. And let us use your loan example... if you did not pay it back, what could your sister do?? Sue?? But, if you have no money what is she going to get?? The govmt does not have any money... it is something like $8 trillion in debt at the time... it only has the ability to issue more debt or raise taxes to pay off your 'debt'..

And if you really want to get VERY technical.. most of the defense budget is not discretionary... you can only tinker at the edges of what is spent.. most has been committed for various weapon systems that they could not cut... so the TRUE amount of money that congress can argue over is maybe 3 to 5%.. the rest is inertia..

Sorry for the spelling in the earlier post... I knew it was wrong at the time... just had a brain fart and could not think of it..
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-08-2006, 03:02 AM   #75
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ladelfina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,713
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Texas Proud, I understand what you are saying about the money not actually being there untouched,* but that doesn't make it right.

Strangely, though, you say "most has been committed for various weapon systems that they could not cut".* Why is money for SS any less "committed"? It's odd to say they can cut SS, but not cut defense.

Look, this is a really good discussion to be having. EVERY voter should be examining these issues and priorities... You're right that if I'm broke my sister won't get her money back. But it's one thing to be broke because I spent the money on bulk rice and beans, or on doctor's bills... and another to be broke because I spent all, 1/2, 25%.. whatever.. on a useless new Hummer. In either case we're both in a pickle, but in the second scenario sis has a right to be majorly p*ssed-off.

Surfdaddy.. ok, maybe the gov't. should never have gotten into the insurance business. That's a fair argument. Imagine that SS/Medicare had never been invented. Then you'd be talking about a "budget" 1/2 as big, of which defense would be 50%!

If we start with that premise, then maybe we can evaluate whether that level is too high, not enough, or just right.. I don't think it's unreasonable to spend for defense, I just think it's unreasonable to spend so much, especially for what we are getting. The anti-universal-health-care folks use the argument of "waste", but often when it comes to defense these same people are not holding Congress' feet to the fire on excessive spending. Apparently it's less bad to waste our $$ killing people than it is to waste it helping them. (sigh.)
__________________
ladelfina is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-08-2006, 07:02 AM   #76
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladelfina
Look, this is a really good discussion to be having. EVERY voter should be examining these issues and priorities... You're right that if I'm broke my sister won't get her money back. But it's one thing to be broke because I spent the money on bulk rice and beans, or on doctor's bills... and another to be broke because I spent all, 1/2, 25%.. whatever.. on a useless new Hummer. In either case we're both in a pickle, but in the second scenario sis has a right to be majorly p*ssed-off.
Uh....the Hummer and the rest of the high priced tools are called force multipliers. They have a dual purpose one is to lower the number of military personnel in combat and as a result lower the number of casualties. The other is to make the military more effective. We could absolutely cut out many of the force multipliers, but that would mean a much larger and more expensive military. It would also mean more soldiers/airmen/sailors at risk of being killed or injured. So each worthless Hummer to speak about is actually saving the salary, benefits, and personnel equipment of about 40 soldiers.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-08-2006, 07:13 AM   #77
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,275
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Ladel...

Yes, a good discussion.. I agree...

So lets go through a few of you comments... There are contracts out for defense.. and there are 'things' to maintain as long as we have them (ships, planes, tanks, nukes, etc etc..) you can not just stop paying for them.. there is committed money... my point is this is not discretionary in the terms you were using...

But, for SS... if all the federal politicians, including the prez, decided to pass a bill stopping SS next month... it COULD happen.. (yes, and all the air molecules in my room can congregate in one corner.. in theory..)... the checks would just stop... saving money like crazy.. no it could never really happen.. but there is no legal reason that it could not.. again, more than likely they will only cut benefits 15 to 25 percent...

Why do you think that your sister would not be pissed off that you wasted her money in either of your examples... you were supposed to pay her back. you did not.. OK, let's change it from 'sister' to megabank... now it does not matter what you spent it on... they want it back..

I am not arguing of waste in the universal health care... I am arguing that the level of service will suffer greatly... that the 'need' for medical will go up a lot.. that the cost will skyrocket... yes, there is waste, but there is waste in all programs... and even at mega corp...

I am actually sorry we are killing people... but, would you rather have them kill us?? With no response?? The Iraq war was 'won' quickly... with few casualties... but the tribal hatred over there will never be won... they are killing themselves.. and consider the killing rate of WWII... this is just a small skirmish compared to how many died every day then.. it could be much worse if we had to use 'old' weapons..
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-08-2006, 07:53 AM   #78
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
ladelfina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,713
Re: 6 stitches = $800

sorry let's retire, Hummer was a bad & confusing choice.. In my domestic scenario substitute "Lexus". I am happy for the Army to have Humvees!! I certainly did not mean to deny their usefulness in combat (just their usefulness in going back and forth to WalMart) ..not sure about the F-22s at $360,000,000+ each, tho'.

Tex.. I just think things have gotten out of control. The Iraqis weren't and aren't, as a whole, going to kill "us." The current terrorist insanity would be better served by better police-type and intel activites, not invasions. Hearts and minds, yeh?

But our dear leaders spend untold billions on full-scale wars while firing Arabic translators for being gay. These priorities are not mine.. like Mega-Bank.. I want my money back!!

I know a lot of these things are in the eye of the beholder. And that the "beholders" are getting more partisan and less rational. I hope not to fall into that trap. I want the government to address the REAL threats (a few hundred or thousand crazies that you can't root out with bombs) and not the fake ones. I want them to serve the people's REAL needs (like health-care reform, disaster planning) and not fake ones (outlawing horsemeat, flag-burning amendments). Then I would have a government I could be proud of.
__________________
ladelfina is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-08-2006, 10:46 AM   #79
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 13,275
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Lada...

I do have to agree with you on a few of you items... we have the most advanced jet fighters already.. and nobody is about to make one better than what we have... so why do we need more advanced ones? Got me...

And why do we need all these SUVs and Hummers?? Just gas guzzlers.. I wish they would have passed that carbon tax a few years back... for the people who wanted something for global warming.. you would have an income stream to work with..

And we have to stop those flag burning horse killing anti-gun commie right NOW!!! You just don't know the danger they present!!! :
__________________
Texas Proud is offline   Reply With Quote
Re: 6 stitches = $800
Old 09-08-2006, 11:04 AM   #80
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
Re: 6 stitches = $800

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Proud
Lada...

I do have to agree with you on a few of you items...* we have the most advanced jet fighters already.. and nobody is about to make one better than what we have... so why do we need more advanced ones?* Got me...
The EU is working on one that will be far superior to the ones we currently have. It is expected to be out within the next couple of years. I realize the EU is considered an ally, but since we cannot control who they sell their technology to, we must make sure we have the most capable equipment.
__________________

__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:58 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.