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Old 03-30-2008, 12:21 PM   #21
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I was concerned about the leverage advocated by Missed Fortune and the assumption that income would always be available to keep the strategy going. For me this would have failed completely during a serious downturn (I work in an unstable industry) and there is no "hunker down" when a mortgage payment or other "contract" payment is due.
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I’m very unimpressed
Old 03-30-2008, 01:50 PM   #22
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I’m very unimpressed

Wow, I’m surprised at the ‘closed mindedness’. You had your mind made up before you ever read the book, so why did you bother (I doubt you actually read it, a cursory glance at a few paragraphs at best). I doubt there is any proof I could provide that would change anyone here’s mind. My clients keep my schedule filled with referrals, that says a lot. But clearly you don’t know or understand how it works, and whatever ‘numbers you ran’ clearly were not as we structure it, or failed to consider all areas of profit and benefit. And following the IRS code as written, is not ‘abuse’, but the IRS likes claiming that, when we are smarter following the code than they were when they wrote it. But ‘tax guys’ love helping you pay taxes… Texas Proud, do you really think that the IRS should actively seek methods to tax us more? (The IRS uses our tax dollars lobbying congress to increase taxes, now that’s abuse) You keep paying those taxes I don’t have to pay, thank you.

I still recommend ROTHs, you should max it every year. I often use term insurance as well.

We don’t use VUL, it doesn’t work. The UL policies we use are structured backwards, so the fees over time are less than an annuity. I doubt you have ever seen a properly structured policy, and if you did you’d deny what is says anyway.

You can change your mind, you ARE NOT LOCKED IN. In a properly structured plan there is great flexibility.

Actuaries calculate the risk to the company of the death benefit, I never meant one who could think outside the box anyway.

I am not knocking what you do, it works. I’m just saying that there are other ways and methods to get there… This is how I invest my money, I learned about all this as a client first, long before Doug Andrew’s book. I have made more money using arbitrage strategies, than my stocks have ever made me, and once I subtract the tax, I’m really better off with the insurance contracts. Often there is no money out of pocket, just repositioned non-performing assets, so the cash on cash internal rate of return is infinite. This is sometimes accomplished with redirected otherwise payable taxes, and/or arbitrage.

And ‘FinanceDude’, I’m offended. I have created income for many seniors that were ready to sell their houses and move to a studio apartment, helped many retire on time and so on… after each followed traditional advice that clearly didn’t work in real life application.

And I guess the less a guys commission the more credible he is, and inversely so as well Do you hold your choice of doctor, lawyer, CPA, et al., to the same standard? I’ve found that advice is generally worth what you pay for it, free advice as well.

Let me get this straight… in your opinion, if a person has an insurance license, they no longer have any credibility? What about all my other licenses and designations? And I haven’t been to an insurance seminar in years (no point, they just sell death benefit structured insurance)… and I’m getting real bored with this… not a single relevant question or answer from any of you. Just hacks and insults. I’m very unimpressed.
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:21 PM   #23
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if a person has an insurance license, they no longer have any credibility
Hey, I have an insurance license. Don't take away my credibility.

I've raised one objection to the "Missed Fortune" plan as described in the book - about leverage not about insurance. I've also noticed that you consistently say all the other insurance guys don't know how to structure the contracts properly. If that's so and everything I've learned or been taught about insurance didn't cover some clever way to put these things together I'm very interested in learning something new. Can you describe it with any specific details so I can understand?
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:30 PM   #24
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And are you talking about an EIUL policy? Please...
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:39 PM   #25
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(The IRS uses our tax dollars lobbying congress to increase taxes, now that’s abuse)
You're blithering.
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Old 03-30-2008, 04:49 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by KevinBrunner View Post
Wow, I’m surprised at the ‘closed mindedness’. You had your mind made up before you ever read the book, so why did you bother (I doubt you actually read it, a cursory glance at a few paragraphs at best). I doubt there is any proof I could provide that would change anyone here’s mind. My clients keep my schedule filled with referrals, that says a lot. But clearly you don’t know or understand how it works, and whatever ‘numbers you ran’ clearly were not as we structure it, or failed to consider all areas of profit and benefit. And following the IRS code as written, is not ‘abuse’, but the IRS likes claiming that, when we are smarter following the code than they were when they wrote it. But ‘tax guys’ love helping you pay taxes… Texas Proud, do you really think that the IRS should actively seek methods to tax us more? (The IRS uses our tax dollars lobbying congress to increase taxes, now that’s abuse) You keep paying those taxes I don’t have to pay, thank you.
You're forgetting a few things:

1)No more cares how many referrals you get.
2)FA's and insurance agents don't get a very wam reception on here in general, it's a DIY forum.
3)I have had an insurance license since 1989, you're not the only one............

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The UL policies we use are structured backwards, so the fees over time are less than an annuity. I doubt you have ever seen a properly structured policy, and if you did you’d deny what is says anyway.
Post a prospectus on your favorite UL policy and we'll analyze it...........still waiting on that.

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And ‘FinanceDude’, I’m offended. I have created income for many seniors that were ready to sell their houses and move to a studio apartment, helped many retire on time and so on… after each followed traditional advice that clearly didn’t work in real life application.
Be offended all you want. If you were truly a pioneer in this stuff I would be attending your $3000 conferences and buying your $995 tape set..............


Give us some real life examples and we'll see.........
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:35 PM   #27
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I just found the first MF101 comment on a google search for something else and thought I'd respond... Hadn't thought about it being a DIY forum... good point. This isn't the place... I wish you all the best.
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Old 03-30-2008, 06:06 PM   #28
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Over the weekend, I read the book "Missed Fortune 101," by Douglas R. Andrew (http://www.missedfortune.com/index.aspx).*

Because I was skeptical of some of Mr. Andrew's claims, I searched these forums and the internet for any potentially helpful commentary on this book, but came up with very little.
Well, there's this recommendation on the publisher's site:

"A refreshing alternative to traditional retirement planning!"
- Robert Kiyosaki, author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad, the bestselling personal finance book of all time
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Old 03-30-2008, 11:58 PM   #29
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I think I'm running from anything Kiyosaki endorses...
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:26 AM   #30
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I decided to go and read some of the site.... and guess what... I was RIGHT in my guess earlier...

"Over time, the interest and compounding of that cash can more than compensate for the continuing costs of owning that policy. These costs, which allow the investment to qualify under the definition of life insurance and, therefore, remain tax-free, are an absolutely critical component for achieving the most attractive results."


SOOOO, what happens when and if the person reaches the age of 90 or 95 or even 100... the cost of that 'term' insurance is quite high and I would think this plan starts to collapse in on itself...

And I wonder how they compare this plan to one where the person buys stock that does not pay dividends (so no taxes) and then sells and only pays the low cap gain rate. Since you do not have the high fees, it would suggest that this is the 'better' way to go....



And then I came across this gem

"Home equity is not liquid or safe and has not rate of return. When times get tough those who lack liquidity have no choice but to liquidate their assets (home) at low prices and survive the best they can."


Hmmmm... so, if times get tough and I do not have enough to make the mortgage payment AND the life insurance policy.... what am I going to do Let the life insurance policy 'lapse' and create a tax liability that I can not even come close to paying...


As I said earlier... once you are in this plan you are stuck for life... if you have not yet 'retired', then you lost all of your other opportunities and will have to pay tax on the 'gain' but still had paid for the insurance for years with no benefit.... OR you pay a bit hit for all those loans you had taken and are not considered income....

If you do not hold this plan until you DIE... there is no benefit... only costs...


But... I could be wrong....
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:06 AM   #31
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I just found the first MF101 comment on a google search for something else and thought I'd respond... Hadn't thought about it being a DIY forum... good point. This isn't the place... I wish you all the best.

Isn't it sad that there are these jerks going around peddling this stuff like this. It gives the Life Insurance Industry a bad name.

When they start out with, "hey need some life insurance... it has all kinds of benefits"... there is little doubt that your interests and real needs are being considered. It is usually not the sign of an experienced ethical agent either.
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Old 03-31-2008, 08:50 AM   #32
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Isn't it sad that there are these jerks going around peddling this stuff like this. It gives the Life Insurance Industry a bad name.

When they start out with, "hey need some life insurance... it has all kinds of benefits"... there is little doubt that your interests and real needs are being considered. It is usually not the sign of an experienced ethical agent either.
Hey at least we scared him away...........wonder whose postpushed him over the edge He cracked me up when he said I "offended" him.......he must be an amateur to have such thin skin for an INSURANCE agent..........
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Old 03-31-2008, 09:04 AM   #33
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Hey at least we scared him away...........wonder whose postpushed him over the edge He cracked me up when he said I "offended" him.......he must be an amateur to have such thin skin for an INSURANCE agent..........
Yeah, reptiles usually have thick, scaly hides.
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Old 03-31-2008, 12:08 PM   #34
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Kevin Brunner, there is something in the way you speak that sound like you are selling instead of advising.

Words like “You not very open minded, pay all the tax you like (I myself hate paying too much tax), I make lots of money for my client, special structure plan, many of my clients, lots of referrals, allot of advisors out there NOT doing it correctly for there clients, the US is behind on strategies, I have consulted Avery Dennison, Anixter Bros, ITT Industries, Vinnell Corp, Ratheon, and A DOZEN more, wrote business plans professionally for many years. "


Thank goodness for people like Financial Dude, Brewer12345, chinaco, Texas Proud, growing older, MasterBlaster, Scrooge and the kind people of this forum that help us youngster moving toward financial independent.
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Old 03-31-2008, 12:59 PM   #35
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No... not the case at all. And yes I am thick skinned to a point. I teach first a concept. Unless you understand the concept (many people insist they understand, will argue they understand, will insult you when you say... "you're still not getting it..." and they still DON'T get it) Sell? I guess I 'sell' the client on learning, learning how things work, why they work and the relationship of moving one financial item, and how that effects the others... Once they understand this, then they will understand what to do. I told you a bit about my experience, so you'd know I'm not an amateur.

I spent some time with my CPA a few years ago. I designed a plan, and asked him and his firm (about a dozen advisors and CPAs) to blow holes through it. They did, and I gave my researched responses. We went back and forth for several weeks. They asked and I responded. In the end, after all their complaints were answered, one being that these insurance companies lie and the illustrations will never happen. I provided from another advisor who's been doing this same plans since the 1980's copies of his clients accounts (names whited out) showing the returns and account cash values, showing each new policy they 1035 exchanged to newer EIUL's etc etc etc... The net spendable values were because of arbitrage, the net cash-on-cash internal rate of return was better then 10% Tax Free, and all the other benefits, liquidity, and permanent life insurance, just came along for the ride, just as Doug Andrew said it would.

After all that work, their final response is "we just simply disagree with using insurance this way", but they were unable to offer any alternative plan that could generate the same cash-on-cash retirement income as the Missed Fortune Plan does. I fired him and hired a new one, who understands something other than IRA and Mutual Funds.

I learned, yet again, sometimes people are just a waste of time. Their minds are not open, and it's like explaining flowers to a blind person. There is really no point to it.

You guys clearly hate insurance people, and if he recommends somethings other then term insurance than he's not a financial advisor, he's an insurance salesman, and if the word insurance is in there, or if the guy made a few dollars for his advice, then someone was cheated. We'll I've lost far more money to Mutual Fund Salesman and Stock Salesman (aka Financial Advisors) and my UL Policies are making far more retirement for me than my IRA at this point. Of course that 1% he charges, is clearly more than his advice is worth.

I simply realized there was no way and no evidence that you would listen to. So there is no point to continue.

BTW, I don't put all my clients money in policies, that's unsuitable. We use other things, and especially if he has matching from his employer, we use the 401k. Privately managed funds, real estate, etc...

I've never said your way doesn't work, that would be untrue. I simply believe a well rounded plan includes several diversified methods, max out the ROTH first, use an appropriate amount of Home Equity for arbitrage, reduce taxes at every opportunity, have some real estate, either directly or a well managed group or fund, REIT etc... (allot of REITs are not well managed) several options.

Tell me you think I'm wrong if you disagree. We can agree to disagree, that's fine. You have no evidence that I'm unethical. Statements like that stop the real discussion, that tells me you have nothing to offer.

Right now, my clients policies are sure doing better than their 401k...

Again I've not heard a single real reason, other than you don't like 'insurance people'. And in 5 years since I got my licenses, I've never heard a legitimate complaint about what I do, all you've done is strengthen my resolve. So in a strange way... thank you.

It was the references to being unethical... that irritated me.

Listen, this is not what this board is about... arguing... get on with what you usually talk about. I've enjoyed reading some of it on other areas of this board.

I wish you the best.
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Old 03-31-2008, 01:13 PM   #36
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No... not the case at all. And yes I am thick skinned to a point. I teach first a concept. Unless you understand the concept (many people insist they understand, will argue they understand, will insult you when you say... "you're still not getting it..." and they still DON'T get it) Sell? I guess I 'sell' the client on learning, learning how things work, why they work and the relationship of moving one financial item, and how that effects the others... Once they understand this, then they will understand what to do. I told you a bit about my experience, so you'd know I'm not an amateur.
Ok..........sorry for not being PC.........you're a professional huckster.........

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I spent some time with my CPA a few years ago. I designed a plan, and asked him and his firm (about a dozen advisors and CPAs) to blow holes through it. They did, and I gave my researched responses. We went back and forth for several weeks. They asked and I responded. In the end, after all their complaints were answered, one being that these insurance companies lie and the illustrations will never happen. I provided from another advisor who's been doing this same plans since the 1980's copies of his clients accounts (names whited out) showing the returns and account cash values, showing each new policy they 1035 exchanged to newer EIUL's etc etc etc... The net spendable values were because of arbitrage, the net cash-on-cash internal rate of return was better then 10% Tax Free, and all the other benefits, liquidity, and permanent life insurance, just came along for the ride, just as Doug Andrew said it would.
I keep asking for the prospectus on which product you're using, care to post that before I die??

Quote:
After all that work, their final response is "we just simply disagree with using insurance this way", but they were unable to offer any alternative plan that could generate the same cash-on-cash retirement income as the Missed Fortune Plan does. I fired him and hired a new one, who understands something other than IRA and Mutual Funds.
So, after a DOZEN CPAs disagreed with you, you fired them and found a CPA who AGREES with you? Sounds fishy..........

Quote:
I learned, yet again, sometimes people are just a waste of time. Their minds are not open, and it's like explaining flowers to a blind person. There is really no point to it.
Ever hear the advice: "know your audience"? Well, you have no clue..........

Quote:
You guys clearly hate insurance people, and if he recommends somethings other then term insurance than he's not a financial advisor, he's an insurance salesman, and if the word insurance is in there, or if the guy made a few dollars for his advice, then someone was cheated. We'll I've lost far more money to Mutual Fund Salesman and Stock Salesman (aka Financial Advisors) and my UL Policies are making far more retirement for me than my IRA at this point. Of course that 1% he charges, is clearly more than his advice is worth.

I simply realized there was no way and no evidence that you would listen to. So there is no point to continue.
Best point of all.......if NONE of us is willing to listen, WHY don't you just GO AWAY That way, you can brag to all your buddies you got to FIRE the "FIRE" crowd? The best thing for you to do is go peddle your "miracle financial solutions" on the Rich Dad forum................

Quote:
Again I've not heard a single real reason, other than you don't like 'insurance people'. And in 5 years since I got my licenses, I've never heard a legitimate complaint about what I do, all you've done is strengthen my resolve. So in a strange way... thank you.
FIVE YEARS, and now you're an "expert"?? Thanks for clarifying that.........

Quote:
It was the references to being unethical... that irritated me.
Well, if the shoe fits................
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:01 PM   #37
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Kevin....

Still only words... and no 'meat'...

What is the expense ratio of one of your plans? This should be a known number if you are a FA... (just to let you know.. mine is between 45 and 50 bps. total... all in...)

What kind of return are you getting... again, nothing concrete... (my 5 year is over 13% ).......

And what about the scare tactics I mentioned on the site? About having your money 'stuck' in a house and having to sell.... as I said, if you are 'stuck' having to sell, then your plan cratered anyhow... and YOUR plan would have cratered even more...
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:10 PM   #38
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Hey Kevin, how about a prospectus??
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Old 03-31-2008, 04:02 PM   #39
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in the middle of a project today...

how would that help? It shows to company, not index crediting to client accounts...?

Question though: is there any point to continuing.... ?

and I've had a license for five years... I started investing in these accounts in 1982 when I was 16. (now three of them all max funded, soon a fourth to start filling, one was 1035 to a newer EIUL from an old policy) I've put more in the markets, then the policies... and today the policies have more cash. That's what made a believer out of me. It was at my financial advisors advice I became and advisor... and I love it.
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Old 03-31-2008, 04:13 PM   #40
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in the middle of a project today...

how would that help? It shows to company, not index crediting to client accounts...?
So the retired engineers, mathematicians, and actuaries
on here can look at it............

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and I've had a license for five years... I started investing in these accounts in 1982 when I was 16. (now three of them all max funded, soon a fourth to start filling, one was 1035 to a newer EIUL from an old policy) I've put more in the markets, then the policies... and today the policies have more cash. That's what made a believer out of me. It was at my financial advisors advice I became and advisor... and I love it.
Like I said earlier, if it was that lock-tight, you would be selling me and every other advisor in America your CD set, expensive 2-day seminars, etc.

Do what you want, but don't expect folks on here to think of you as the next financial Messiah........
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