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Old 04-01-2008, 12:44 PM   #61
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How about this one:
Don't all babies shave?

Nope, the other one is stranger, probably because I don't really understand it at all. Some kind of mixed breed something-or-other with a magical crystal ball hanging just inches above him in the barn?
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Old 04-01-2008, 12:46 PM   #62
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Nope, the other one is stranger, probably because I don't really understand it at all. Some kind of mixed breed something-or-other with a magical crystal ball hanging just inches above him in the barn?
Its a Disco Goat.

(Don't ask - you won't like the answer.)
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:04 PM   #63
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Hmm, I think I have a new avatar....
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Old 04-01-2008, 01:59 PM   #64
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Its a Disco Goat.

(Don't ask - you won't like the answer.)
I thought it was half dog, half bull. THAT's how much of a city girl I am! Thanks for the explanation.
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Old 04-01-2008, 03:40 PM   #65
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If he's going to "play" on here as an FA, one of the first things he should have done is brush up on his spelling. How serious is he going to be taken on a technical subject if he can't spell or use spell-check??
Hey... I did not say he was smart... just that he had not been insulting like MMND was to people quickly... and we both know that nobody on this board is going to become a client, so if that is what he is looking for he will be gone soon enough (like MMND left even though she was not 'selling' anything)...

And heck, maybe he will change his ways and actually start to contribute.. I disagree with his thinking, but he believes, so why should I say he is 'wrong'...
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:26 PM   #66
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Hey... I did not say he was smart... just that he had not been insulting like MMND was to people quickly... and we both know that nobody on this board is going to become a client, so if that is what he is looking for he will be gone soon enough (like MMND left even though she was not 'selling' anything)...

And heck, maybe he will change his ways and actually start to contribute.. I disagree with his thinking, but he believes, so why should I say he is 'wrong'...
Because he is wrong in his belief?? I can only go on what I have seen and experienced myself. One of my friends is a very successful insurance agent for NML. He has been one of their top producers forever. He knows more about LI than anyone I know. He gets calls from NML's internal experts about scenarios they come across. The guy knows split dollar, second-to-die, joint comp life, etc, better than just about anyone.

If this was TRULY a GOOD thing for people to do,my friend would be ALL OVER IT, giving seminars to his clients, doing training at corporate office to agents, etc.

When I asked him about this, he just laughed, and said something about those "cure-all tonics" that used to sell well around the turn of the century...........
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response to Doug Thorburn review
Old 04-09-2008, 09:56 PM   #67
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response to Doug Thorburn review

A copy of my letter to Doug Thorburn;


Doug Thorburn, EA, CFP

Dear Doug,

Your critique of Douglas Andrew’s book and strategies, would be good, if for one thing; Doug’s clients, for almost 30 years, are very happy and making far more ‘spendable’ retirement income than they could have otherwise accumulated. His clients own history, is proof it works, and very well.

Yes he used generalizations; he was teaching a strategy, a concept, not designing a plan for a specific client, where there are specific numbers to consider.

I am writing because I think your intentions were honest and forthright. But, when you started out, rather honestly saying at page 5 you were against it, it was clear your paradigms got in the way, and after that, you were reading only with the intent of debunking the concept all together.

I will grant, I think the book could use a rewrite in some areas, but the concepts are solid, in application it's not as simple as in the book.

Except for those who cannot let go of paradigms and let their training and education get in the way of their ability to learn a new concept. It is an informative and thought provoking book.

Might I recommend you meet Doug, and spend some time with him designing a specific strategy using real life examples? I think you would increase your options to help your own clients.

The strategy does not work for every client, but it works well for many, and works extremely well for many others. And yes there are those abusing the strategy and harming clients, that is altogether another issue. Unfortunately this happens with mutual funds, stocks, real estate… et. al. the problem is the agent, not the strategy.

I for one, have a life policy started in 1982 with New York Life. It today has more cash than my stock market investments, and will give a greater net (after tax) income in retirement, and yet it has had less cash placed into it than my stocks. It’s the taxes during retirement causing this.

And a ROTH is a great idea, if not for all the limitations on contributions… and I do recommend my clients max their ROTH every year, then fund other investments. But it is not enough to retire on.

I read every comment I can find on the web, often I ask to meet the author of the post or review, and not a single person as taken me up on my offer to meet and discuss it all with Doug. I hope you are the first.

Doug will be here in LA with me, June 19th, might we all meet for dinner?

Kevin Brunner

=====

To the bloggers here; your examples of actuaries and others who don't use or disagree with the strategy... is likened to doctors living an average 5 years less then their patients... (following their own advice shortens their life) But I'm sure you'll have some terrific replies to that metaphor as well...

No one condones the strategy for everyone, and you should not have all your money in any one thing... And I don't believe most of you would agree with it, if God himself appeared to you and approved of it... (there's another one for your replies) I have however been entertained at your hostility, but I was hoping for more constructive comments. There have been a few.

I'd like to attach a financial plan (names changed) for your comments... but the file size even as a PDF is large and... I'm not convinced I get an honest critique here anyway... So I won't bother... Most people deny the returns in it anyway (although the companies histories are in favor of the projected returns) new ideas and concepts seem to be painful to some folks... so they call you names instead...

Doug Andrew's site has tremendous resources, I would recommend you read... MF-01 Home

Doug Andrew stopped commenting on most peoples critiques, as all the evidence he provides still does not effect their opinion, so why waste the time. And this will be my last post here as well....

And I say again, you were right, this is not a good place for these discussions.... I have however found other areas of this site interesting... As Missed Fortune is not the only thing I do for my clients....

And I do honestly wish you all the best in your portfolio returns... I hope you retire well...
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Old 04-09-2008, 11:51 PM   #68
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Kevin Brenner:
I just finished The Last Chance Millionaire and am skeptical because of what appear to be omissions, errors, and mis-portrayals of the results of conventional methods of saving for retirement.

However, I do believe we're about to get hammered on tax increases and am facing a bracket jump when I hit RMDs in eight years (i.e. I'll be 63 later this year). Can you provide an illustration showing both the NAIC disclosure values and what you project would be the likely values assuming I take $100k (after-tax $75k) out of qualified plans for the next eight years invest the net in one of the policies you recommend? I would like to compare it to my projections of where I would be if I converted the net $75k/yr into a Roth IRA.

Thanks
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:18 AM   #69
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I have stumbled into a nest of "Missed Fortune" advisors locally. They gave a very polished seminar and offer a "free" financial plan using their leverage everything and buy insurance program. I'll be taking them up on this offer and let you all know what they recommend. Any special questions I should ask? I'm thinking I mostly just want to see where they try to lead me if I don't seem alarmed at their basic concepts.
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:19 AM   #70
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Aren't annuities really ponzi schemes at the core that would cease working if people were to stop buying them?

I cannot fathom how empty-headed someone must be to state with any seriousness that an insurance product, with its corresponding fees can outperform a diversified stock market investment.

There is a reason companies sell annuities. It is not because they are unprofitable, and if they could earn higher returns just investing in the financial markets they would do that. Your fees make up the difference, and prove why you MUST underperform in the long run.

Perhaps you should show us the following:
1) How much money is in your life ins plan from 1982, how much did you put in and when. Starting and ending value.
2) Same for retirement accounts, including what you've been invested in.

Unless you approach stock market investing with similar imprudence, I
would be absolutely, tremendously shocked.
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:37 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by KevinBrunner View Post
A copy of my letter to Doug Thorburn;


Doug Thorburn, EA, CFP

To the bloggers here; your examples of actuaries and others who don't use or disagree with the strategy... is likened to doctors living an average 5 years less then their patients... (following their own advice shortens their life) But I'm sure you'll have some terrific replies to that metaphor as well... ...

Ok I'll bite.

Lets start with this your metaphor is not true.

Quote:
Life expectancy of doctors: “No recent national studies have been published on age at death and causes of death for U.S. physicians, and previous studies have had sampling limitations… Data in this report are from the National Occupational Mortality Surveillance database and are derived from deaths occurring in 28 states between 1984 and 1995. Occupation is coded according to the U.S. Bureau of the Census classification system… Among both U.S. white and black men, physicians were, on average, older when they died, (73.0 years for white and 68.7 forblack) than were lawyers (72.3 and 62.0), all examined professionals(70.9 and 65.3), and all men (70.3 and 63.6). The top ten causes ofdeath for white male physicians were essentially the same as those ofthe general population, although they were more likely to die fromcerebrovascular disease, accidents, and suicide, and less likely todie from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, pneumonia/influenza,or liver disease than were other professional white men.”Am J Prev Med 2000, Volume 19, pages 155-159 Mortality rates and causes among U.S. physicians.Frank E, Biola H, Burnett CA.Abstract at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
I should add that doctors have significantly lower rate of smoking than the public, I guess they learn something in med school. A bit of googling will give you an explaination how this myth entered urban legend status.


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And I do honestly wish you all the best in your portfolio returns... I hope you retire well
I hope you do your own research like I have. The dangers of going against conventional wisdom is not only does it have to be wrong, but your unconventional theory has to be right. Frankly, I'd don't like those odds.

As for my retirement, I am starting year 9 next month, I live in Hawaii, I am not 50, and I'm wealthier now than when I retired.
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Old 04-10-2008, 07:52 PM   #72
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And I do honestly wish you all the best in your portfolio returns... I hope you retire well...
Funny thing, after reading your posts I was feeling the same sentiments for you. Because I'm presuming that your retirement portfolio has exactly the same investments that you're recommending for your clients.
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Old 04-11-2008, 06:47 PM   #73
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OK - Mr Brunner has said goodbye 4 times and I was willing to read and follow along until:

"I'd like to attach a financial plan (names changed) for your comments... but the file size even as a PDF is large and... I'm not convinced I get an honest critique here anyway... So I won't bother... Most people deny the returns in it anyway (although the companies histories are in favor of the projected returns) new ideas and concepts seem to be painful to some folks... so they call you names instead..."

Mr Brunner, if you are still reading - you didn't understand the audience here - they are people who have for the most part retired early and have *lots* of time and bandwidth to review a *large* pdf file. The paragraph above tells me you are 'teasing' and unwilling to truly open up the plan for critique. At that point, all we have to go on is what you say and frankly, as in most of life, until one's actions match their mouth consistently, we won't believe what you say.
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:04 PM   #74
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I find it interesting that KevinBrunner's reply to the book review does not actually address any of the criticisms (other than acknowledging the benefits of a ROTH, and the somewhat subjective writing style statements).

He just says it was biased, closed minded, and irrelevant because our 'clients, for almost 30 years, are very happy'.

I've seen time and time again, many people buy products that they don't fully understand, and are 'happy' with them. That's because they bought the sales pitch. They may not have the expertise to evaluate if the product was better or worse than another product. But they are 'happy'. It does not mean it is a good product.

Advertising supplements and the back pages of magazines are full of over-priced, under-performing, hyped-claim, dubious quality merchandise - and most of them say 'thousands of satisfied customers'.

How about some facts?

-ERD50
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Old 04-12-2008, 03:15 PM   #75
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For all of you responding to or asking for more input/explanation from Mr. Brunner, it appears as though you might have missed this phrase from his last post:
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And this will be my last post here....
RIP...
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Old 04-12-2008, 11:40 PM   #76
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For all of you responding to or asking for more input/explanation from Mr. Brunner, it appears as though you might have missed this phrase from his last post:
We've heard quite a few of those promises before from other "last-time posters"!
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:48 AM   #77
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We've heard quite a few of those promises before from other "last-time posters"!
Yeah, but this time he really means it!....
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Old 04-13-2008, 02:29 PM   #78
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Aw, quit your bitchin'! You could be in the state I am ... beneficiary of family trusts you can do little to change (well, I was instrumental in changing the trustee, not yet a done deal, and no evidence that anything will change...)

-- Pedorrero, idle* whining trustafarian
*But a bona fide student since 2008, keeping his mind occupied at least.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:45 PM   #79
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Are these the same strategies featured in 'dateline' today? The Attorney General they interview is not too happy with many of the sales pitches.

msnbc.com Video Player

I watched some of the show - I especially liked where the salesman shows the prospect a magazine with with a feature story by the salesman ( along with Ben Bernanke on the cover). Turns out, the guy pays $1500 to have his picture put on this cover of a (self-published) magazine . The salesman just picks which article he wants to be associated with from a list on their website. The dateline guy shows up with the same magazine with *his* picture on the cover! Priceless!

The focus of the part I watched was on non-disclosure of the surrender fees, and general deception and 'glossing over' of facts.

-ERD50
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