A Little background on the UAW Chief........

[FinanceDude]

Sounds like a "real nice guy".......

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/au...les/23uaw.html

[travelover]

FD, I'm not sure what your beef is with Detroit, but your repeated postings with the same Detroit baiting theme are getting tiresome.

I'd ask that you either get over it or move it along to the soap box section.

[Bikerdude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelover FD, I'm not sure what your beef is with Detroit, but your repeated postings with the same Detroit baiting theme are getting tiresome. I'd ask that you either get over it or move it along to the soap box section.

I think posting an article from the NYT concerning the auto industry is relevant to retirement and investing. I do not have a problem reading varied opinions on both current management and union heads. If the content is offensive to you I would suggest you consider ignoring it.

[soupcxan]

If you want to discuss GM's prospects as an investment or its effects on the economy, I think that's fine in this forum. But if you're just going to post a link with no real analysis, it probably belongs in the soapbox as travelover said.

[haha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by soupcxan If you want to discuss GM's prospects as an investment or its effects on the economy, I think that's fine in this forum. But if you're just going to post a link with no real analysis, it probably belongs in the soapbox as travelover said.

I disagree. When members post news stories, I may see a story that I would have missed. The members analysis may add or subtract from the usefullness of the story.

I share stories that I come across; if I felt I had to think through and prepare an analysis every time I would pass.

Maybe you too should consider that even if something does not appear useful to you, it may be to others. I think this is an excellent story, interesting and useful to me as I have auto bond investments that I am concerend about.

Re attitudes toward unions, I formed my emotional attitude as a boy in Kentucky when I relized what pr*cks most of the mine owners were, and what dangerous and horrible lives the miners had. John L. Lewis of the United Mine Workers was kind of a hero in our home, though my family were not involved in mining or even from that part of the state. But there is something about men trapped in a mine that grabs the imagination and won't let it go.

But conditions are different today, and the day of the royal auto worker is over. The only question left is whether they will destroy the American owned industry, or accept reality.

Ha

[crazy connie]

It was a nice bio article and written for publication in June 2005.

[Nords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelover FD, I'm not sure what your beef is with Detroit

Schadenfreude from a former car salesman...

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha Re attitudes toward unions, I formed my emotional attitude as a boy in Kentucky when I realized what pr*cks most of the mine owners were, and what dangerous and horrible lives the miners had. ... Ha

Ha, I failed to find a youtube clip, but the song by The Band, "The Caves of Jericho" is, IMO one of the most emotion-packed "mine owner" songs out there.

a clip here:

Amazon.com: The Caves of Jericho: MP3 Downloads: The Band

and some lyrics (more here: THE BAND Lyrics - THE CAVES OF JERICHO )

The hat lamps burned with a flame like lightning
The coal dust blanketed the morning dew.
The young ones looked for kin
And the blind man, he looks grim.
'Cause he sees there's nothing that he can do.

They pumped up the mud and they chunked out water,
They scratched the earth till it turned to sand
And a half mile down below
It's a lost cause the miners know
Meet your maker, boys, the time's at hand.

The fire boss's hands are clean as a whistle
The fat cat knows he's a company man
But he should have bowed down his head
When they hauled out all the dead
But it's business, boys, start 'em up again.

Down in Jericho, Kentucky
The mines have all caved in
Down in Jericho.
Broken hearts don't mend
Tears stained eyes of kin
Never ever seen
What their future might have been.

[HFWR]

It's a bit of a stretch to find any link between this article, and the wisdom (or lack thereof) of investing in GM.

So, an ex-Marine rose through the ranks to become UAW president, and he's a tough negotiator. Shocked, I tell ya...

[Bikerdude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFWR It's a bit of a stretch to find any link between this article, and the wisdom (or lack thereof) of investing in GM. So, an ex-Marine rose through the ranks to become UAW president, and he's a tough negotiator. Shocked, I tell ya...

Well at the very least (and this is not a stretch) it indicates to me that a personality such as his combined with a weak GM management lead to the current disaster at GM. I would think that an astute investor would have determined this by studying (among other things) the leaders of the opposing forces.

[HFWR]

An astute investor would probably avoid the Big Three like the plague.

Both mgmt and the unions have to swallow some bitter medicine, or they'll all be bagging groceries at Kroger. But let's cut to the chase. FDude's posts are not for informational or enlightment purposes, they're designed to poke his perceived "opponents" in the eye every chance he gets. And he's started using the "SG method" of throwing out posts primarily designed to insult others, or at least to stir up a stink, then putting a smiley after it, as if that'll make it all better. These are blatantly political posts, and they belong in the Soapbox...

[maddythebeagle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFWR And he's started using the "SG method" of throwing out posts primarily designed to insult others, or at least to stir up a stink, then putting a smiley after it, as if that'll make it all better

but everyone knows the proper way to end these type of posts is with a "God Bless"

[ERD50]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bikerdude Well at the very least (and this is not a stretch) it indicates to me that a personality such as his combined with a weak GM management lead to the current disaster at GM. I would think that an astute investor would have determined this by studying (among other things) the leaders of the opposing forces.

Are/were the GM management 'weak', or were they just in a tough spot? If they didn't meet Union demands, the UAW would strike, and that is very, very hard on a capital & inventory intensive business.

And did that feed into their desire to push for the bigger, more profitable cars over smaller fuel eff ones? They actually made good money on these for a while, so maybe that *was* the smart thing to do (yet, just pushing out the inevitable).

Toyota/Honda had an advantage when they came in - they could offer jobs at a higher than local rate, but lower than UAW rate, and that would look attractive to those locals. If GM/F/C tried that, the UAW would strike in the existing plants.

I'm not defending management, they may be sub par - I don't know. Just trying to bring some perspective to the situation.

OK, some more perspective - a lot of us have been complaining that CEO pay is not aimed enough toward long term health of the company. Well, we have the same thing here with the UAW. No, I'm not surprised the guy is a tough negotiator, that's his job. But w/o some more direct tie into the companies long term health, you get what you got. They go for the golden egg.

-ERD50

[FinanceDude]

Removed..........due to lack of humor or good nature on this thread......

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HFWR But let's cut to the chase. FDude's posts are not for informational or enlightment purposes, they're designed to poke his perceived "opponents" in the eye every chance he gets. And he's started using the "SG method" of throwing out posts primarily designed to insult others, or at least to stir up a stink, then putting a smiley after it, as if that'll make it all better. These are blatantly political posts, and they belong in the Soapbox...

If the mods would have agreed, it would already be in the Soapbox. Sometimes it helps to know the background of the folks who are asking for taxpayer money that YOU and I pay. Whether to give them taxpayer money or not is a political discussion. HOW they got to this point is a financial discussion. Nice to know that none of my posts are informational or enlightening. I find YOUR posts informational and enlightening, but I'll bet you didn't know that. That's too bad.......

[FinanceDude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nords Schadenfreude from a former car salesman...

I know German..........

[HFWR]

FDude, it was my mistake in wording to imply that none of your posts are informational or enlightening.

Quote:

...I find YOUR posts informational and enlightening...

Then I must seriously question your judgement!! But you have good taste...

[bow-tie]

I think Ribeyes have good taste.

[bow-tie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ERD50 ... Toyota/Honda had an advantage when they came in - they could offer jobs at a higher than local rate, but lower than UAW rate, and that would look attractive to those locals. If GM/F/C tried that, the UAW would strike in the existing plants... -ERD50

...and I often wonder what the wages for those non-union plants would be if not for the UAW's hold on Detroit. It's a tough one for me to noodle.

Unions are truly a very sharp double-edged sword.

[OAG]

At the beginning for the Foreign Manufactures the field was not level. They had to deal with "import quotas" which were US Government imposed - they worked their way around that one too in time. Most communities would now be very happy to welcome them in.

I also noticed in today's news Toyota, Honda and Nissan have "laid off" temporary workers in Japan (no $105K, no 95% of salary, no pensions, just recall, if they are needed in the future). Seems like they do have a plan for decreases in demand - the article I read is that this temporary worker plan was put in place in Japan in 1990 and used now for the first time.