A sad tale for a friend who didn't

[growing_older]

I have to stretch hard to have much sympathy for the teacher who never noticed that she wasn't contributing to social security and was surprised to learn she wasn't going to get benefits from it. Likewise she must not have read any of the pension information or 403b information provided by her employer.

The former highly paid financial guy I have even less sympathy for. His business was finance.

I understand that some people are intimidated by money issues and do have some sympathy that it can be hard for them to understand and do the right thing. I don't think that means society should stand ready to reward them for their poor decision making when they had the opportunity to do it themselves but chose not to. Those who struggled with low wages and limited opportunities should be supported with dignity. Those who squandered their resources shouldn't get unlimited do overs at the expense of those who sacrificed to provide for their own future.

 

[Mulligan]

I have to stretch hard to have much sympathy for the teacher who never noticed that she wasn't contributing to social security and was surprised to learn she wasn't going to get benefits from it. Likewise she must not have read any of the pension information or 403b information provided by her employer.

The former highly paid financial guy I have even less sympathy for. His business was finance.

I understand that some people are intimidated by money issues and do have some sympathy that it can be hard for them to understand and do the right thing. I don't think that means society should stand ready to reward them for their poor decision making when they had the opportunity to do it themselves but chose not to. Those who struggled with low wages and limited opportunities should be supported with dignity. Those who squandered their resources shouldn't get unlimited do overs at the expense of those who sacrificed to provide for their own future.

You would be surprised, I take that back ASTOUNDED, at how many educators are clueless about their pensions and what they will get from it. Since Texas Teachers are one of about a dozen states that don't pay into SS her pension should be a lot higher. She must not have worked anywhere near 30 years and got confused with the difference between retirement eligible and full retirement. The only benefit of the doubt you could give her was that remaining divorced she maybe thought she could capture some SS through her ex's SS benefit and the GPO got her.

 

[growing_older]

Yes, I can understand if expected to claim on a divorced record being confused by the eligibility required, and with only the snippet of information we have maybe that's all that was meant. But the message that you need to understand your pension (if any) and have savings of your own has been pretty consistently broadcast for decades. It's hard to claim ignorance of the idea that you likely will eventually retire, or that once retired you will need to use money.

 

[chinaco]

In theory what you say is true. And no it truly isn't fair.

But what would you do if it was your father that showed up homeless, hungry, and cold.

Would you say " Oh Sorry dad - You have to go live under a bridge"

I did not say it would not be an emotional issue for the children.

Of course, being a distant observer with the story laid out as it is... Do you feel sorry for this guy?

Fortunately my parents were very, very responsible. Their LBYM lessons are my template. Would I have helped them if they were in need? Surely.

Here is the reason for my seemingly cold response... I have helped a couple of siblings that are financially irresponsible. The usual approach, seems to be... call up with their crisis and ask for a loan (that is never paid back). I have forgiven the loans. They need not call anymore. I learned my lesson.

You can not fix a lifelong habit of financial carelessness (unless I suppose one is rich and inclined to do it). It is too late. I certainly would not subsidize his lifestyle.... which will surely continue as long as he can.

I would sit down and try to help him figure out how to manage his very strict budget on SS. Bottom line... he needs to go back to work and wait to draw SS till 70. But I dare say, he probably is not interested in advice... rather free money to make his problem go away!

 

[brewer12345]

Yes, I can understand if expected to claim on a divorced record being confused by the eligibility required, and with only the snippet of information we have maybe that's all that was meant. But the message that you need to understand your pension (if any) and have savings of your own has been pretty consistently broadcast for decades. It's hard to claim ignorance of the idea that you likely will eventually retire, or that once retired you will need to use money.

*sigh* if only it were so simple.

For me (and most here), this stuff comes as naturally as breathing. Since I breathe, eat and crap this sort of thing, it is at first glance really tough to understand the cluelessness of at least half the general population on matters of personal finance. People are astounded that I read contracts before I sign them and they regard anything more complicated than a checking account as voodoo/alien technology. Most people have never been taught this stuff, and many seem incapable of really learning even when you teach them. I don't know why this is the case, but it appears to be a fact of life. That being the case, I think there should always be a an option of a simple, straightforward financial product in every market that should be the default for consumers; people should be automatically enrolled in a retirement pan where they work (compulsory would be even better); and a required perasonal finance class should be taught in each year of HS. I suppose that is all as likely as me flying my dining room table to the moon...

 

[Sarah in SC]

*sigh* if only it were so simple.

For me (and most here), this stuff comes as naturally as breathing. Since I breathe, eat and crap this sort of thing, it is at first glance really tough to understand the cluelessness of at least half the general population on matters of personal finance. People are astounded that I read contracts before I sign them and they regard anything more complicated than a checking account as voodoo/alien technology. Most people have never been taught this stuff, and many seem incapable of really learning even when you teach them. I don't know why this is the case, but it appears to be a fact of life. That being the case, I think there should always be a an option of a simple, straightforward financial product in every market that should be the default for consumers; people should be automatically enrolled in a retirement pan where they work (compulsory would be even better); and a required personal finance class should be taught in each year of HS. I suppose that is all as likely as me flying my dining room table to the moon...

+1, with additional sighing...

Conversation with 70 year old parents on Father's Day went something like this--"well, you know how much money you need to live on, right? Okay, well if you have enough saved plus your SS, then Dad can quit teaching. If not, he's got to keep working. I know you want to retire, but if you don't have enough money, you can't. And if his health gets too bad to teach, you are probably going to have to sell the house to reduce your expenses". Lots more sighing...

I tried very hard during and since this conversation not to remember all the money they have spent on themselves and my brother over the years, while we were saving and preparing for our own future.

 

[rescueme]

But what would you do if it was your father that showed up homeless, hungry, and cold.

I'd tell him to go to hell (if there is one, I'm sure that he's there, and plenty warm).

He "stole my youth" from me (long story) for more than a decade in my teen years to make his current life at the time - along with his "2nd family" who I actually supported (however unknown at the time), better.

I owe him less than nothing.

(Sorry for venting - but these kinds of statements of how I am expected to support those that bore me, get me going ). My parents had little responsibilty for me (other than having unprotected sex, which resulted in me). I feel no responsibility for them (even if they were still alive).

They lived their lives, in their own manner. I live my life in my own - which dosen't include expecting my childern are responsible for me, in my remaining years.

If my parents (even if still alive) screwed up their own lives - they are responsible for it. Not me. Let them find their own way.

 

[Surewhitey]

I tend to think of it this way, he did teach me how not to be. I had years 0-4, then every other weekend years 5-9-ish. Then 1-2 weeks through 14.

Age 15 I was accused (and not defended by him) of turning them into the IRS by stealing documents from their office...didn't know I was so wise in my early years...then cussed out by his wife in front of him & all he could say was "just apologize"...that was a crappy day. I didn't reply, just got back in the vehicle and drove 5 hours back home.

Didn't see him again until his father's funeral at 20-ish; wife still crazy peeved at me, walked away again. 20 years later, I've replaced him with friends much wiser & not married 4 times.

We all have dysfunctional fams, huh?

 

[rescueme]

We all have dysfunctional fams, huh?

Maybe not all, but more than some will admit ...

But you are correct in your statment. I belive that those of us that have gone through these "tribulations" are better for it - by not following the path of those that have gone before.

 

[Surewhitey]

I just try to be the better than average stepfather & hubby...our daughter is great!

 

[rescueme]

I just try to be the better than average stepfather & hubby...our daughter is great!

Good 4 U ...

 

[Danmar]

Great post Brewer. I agree. I think part of the problem seems to be the general "dumbing down" of our society. Examples might include, cable news, our politics, reality shows, some newspapers(USA Today), gossip mags, our pre ocupation with celebrity, I could go on. Not too surprising that in this environement financial matters don't get much attention.

 

[brewer12345]

Great post Brewer. I agree. I think part of the problem seems to be the general "dumbing down" of our society. Examples might include, cable news, our politics, reality shows, some newspapers(USA Today), gossip mags, our pre ocupation with celebrity, I could go on. Not too surprising that in this environement financial matters don't get much attention.

I'd like to think it is a dumbing down of society, but realistically I think it is the bringing of popular media down to the level of the average viewer.

 

[REWahoo]

We all have dysfunctional fams, huh?

No, fortunately not all of us.

I can't say enough good things about my folks. Married for 60+ years, frugal by necessity. Mom was a stay at home type and dad's max annual income was four (4) figures in the 1960's. Raised four kids, managed to save $140k, paid off the house and retired at age 62. Lived comfortably off their nest egg and SS until age 90, then left enough to support my mom until her death two years later.

He/they set a great example for me and I'll be eternally grateful to them for their gift of love and support.

 

[ERD50]

*sigh* if only it were so simple.

For me (and most here), this stuff comes as naturally as breathing.

I hear 'ya, but I'm going to take an alternate view...

Sure, financial stuff seems complex to may people. But I'd bet that most people don't have a good understanding of how their car works, and the many subsystems (ICE, lubrication, cooling, suspension, tires, electrical, HVAC, computer controls, etc). Yet, generally, people manage to get their oil changed, their tires rotated/replaced, etc, as needed.

The owner's manual spells it out, and to some degree people are 'educated' that they need to do routine maintenance on their cars. It basically works. Now, I could go to great lengths to make changing your oil complex, with long descriptions of viscosity, shear strength, the pressure on bearings, film breakdown, oil dilution, acidification, the breakdown of additives, etc. But people don't need to know the complexities. Just follow the general guidelines in the owners manual, and you'll be OK.

That being the case, I think there should always be a an option of a simple, straightforward financial product in every market that should be the default for consumers; people should be automatically enrolled in a retirement pan where they work (compulsory would be even better); and a required perasonal finance class should be taught in each year of HS. I suppose that is all as likely as me flying my dining room table to the moon...

Exactly. I'll take it further (and have in previous posts), and say that that education ought to be a required annual meeting at every employer. Every paycheck should have some little reminder of how much you need to save to have $ to replace your income at age 65, or something along those lines.

-ERD50

 

[Surewhitey]

You know, my mom is as financially ignorant as the least, but she knows a basic truism...live on less than you make, save the rest & rely on the VA for healthcare. She's always worked part time and lived annually on what we spend in about 3 months.

I've taken on her "extra" monies and invest it for her and she just doesn't worry as much as I do about it...

 

[Walt34]

My "poster child" for this scenario is DW's brother and his wife. She's the big spender, three new cars in the last six or seven years, $3k+ vacations in SC at least once a year when there is a free vacation home available 1/2 hour drive farther south, but my gosh, she'd have to make her own bed, take out the trash, cook meals, and it's two blocks from the beach instead of oceanfront!

They are in their fifties and still living paycheck-to-paycheck. In my early 30's I chose a divorce over going down that road. For retirement income she's counting on at most $150k in a 401k, hubby's National Guard pension, SS, and shopping at the PX. At least they're eligible for VA health benefits. A year ago they took out a consolidation loan to pay off the credit cards, then headed for the beach a week later.

And she is the one who (not openly) sneers at us. This is the one who was stunned into silence when DW let it slip that we're putting $2k/month into savings/investments, trying to get her head wrapped around this apparently foreign concept.

When hubby can't work anymore I think they're in for a very rude awakening. And that grasshopper will find the door to this anthill firmly shut.

 

[Nords]

*sigh* if only it were so simple.
For me (and most here), this stuff comes as naturally as breathing. Since I breathe, eat and crap this sort of thing, it is at first glance really tough to understand the cluelessness of at least half the general population on matters of personal finance.

You probably feel the same way about reading nuclear reactor plant manuals that I feel about reading bond offerings and IPO prospectii.

However we can both use electricity and invest in bonds, so I think the problems come when people can't (or won't) take responsibility.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'd tell him to go to hell (if there is one, I'm sure that he's there, and plenty warm).

He "stole my youth" from me (long story) for more than a decade in my teen years to make his current life at the time - along with his "2nd family" who I actually supported (however unknown at the time), better.

I owe him less than nothing.

(Sorry for venting - but these kinds of statements of how I am expected to support those that bore me, get me going ). My parents had little responsibilty for me (other than having unprotected sex, which resulted in me). I feel no responsibility for them (even if they were still alive).

They lived their lives, in their own manner. I live my life in my own - which dosen't include expecting my childern are responsible for me, in my remaining years.

If my parents (even if still alive) screwed up their own lives - they are responsible for it. Not me. Let them find their own way.

I am sorry for you that things went the way they did. Not everyone grows up in a happy family situation.

For me personally - If only it could be, to have my father show up at my door !

 

[GaryInCO]

I can't say enough good things about my folks. Married for 60+ years, frugal by necessity.
He/they set a great example for me and I'll be eternally grateful to them for their gift of love and support.

Bravo for you, REWahoo. Your story sounds like my parents, except cancer caught up with my dad after about 51 years of happy marriage. 8 years later my mom still misses him terribly.

I feel very fortunate to have had such great parents.

 

[Nodak]

There are lots of examples around here. Many people worked their asses off in the 40s, 50s and 60s to build up a successful farming operation that supported them and their children. When the parents died the kids had to have a McMansion, new cars for everyone in the family (high school kids driving new cars to school), and all new farm equipment. A lot of them went broke and lost everything.

 

[haha]

There are lots of examples around here. Many people worked their asses off in the 40s, 50s and 60s to build up a successful farming operation that supported them and their children. When the parents died the kids had to have a McMansion, new cars for everyone in the family (high school kids driving new cars to school), and all new farm equipment. A lot of them went broke and lost everything.

That is interesting, I would have thought that farm families would be somewhat immune from this, but I guess not.

In well to do suburbs it is endemic. Kids driving their own Mustangs, Beemers, etc. to school. It was even common when I was in high school, a long time ago. My parents were much more frugal, and I thought they were just stingy, but really they were right. Although most of my friends' parents did fine too- they were high earners, and it was hard not do well in America back then.

Ha

 

[Bestwifeever]

American farmers weren't done in just by some oerindulging their families. I remember when the Farm Aid concert was held in 1985--there was a lot of pressure on the American farms:

In the 1980s, American farmers were hit hard by what were, at the time, the worst economic conditions since the Great Depression. Droughts ravaged the fields, property values plunged, loan interest rates soared, thousands were forced off their land and faced foreclosure and bankruptcy. The number of suicides among male farmers in the Upper Midwest reached double the national average, according to a study by the National Farm Medicine Center. And in 1985, the Los Angeles Times dubbed farm policy one of the "toughest issues confronting Congress."

Read more: A Brief History of Farm Aid - TIME

 

[REWahoo]

Kids driving their own Mustangs, Beemers, etc. to school. It was even common when I was in high school, a long time ago.

I'll bet it really chapped you when one of your schoolmates showed up with a new Beemer like this, hot off the a assembly line...

 

[GaryInCO]

Yes, farming is NEVER easy, and sometimes it's harder than others.

But sometimes it goes your way. My parents farmed all their lives, then rented out the farmland and retired. After my dad died my mom got tired of dealing with the farmland, the paperwork, the renters, etc, so we sold off most of the farmland about 2 yrs ago. Land values had exploded in the previous 10 years so she is pretty comfortable now. We could have done better if we'd waited until now to sell, but you never catch the top on something like that.