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Old 04-12-2009, 11:33 AM   #101
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The Rules say we are to avoid being rude or obscene--thank goodness, naughty innuendo seems to be acceptable .
Ditto on naughty innuendos....if not for them and other comic relief, I would have lost interest a while ago. I love to laugh and raise an eyebrow or two.

One of the best benefits I have received from this forum is how to live with my recently retired DH in peace and not whack him two days after his retirement!
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:39 AM   #102
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One of the best benefits I have received from this forum is how to live with my recently retired DH in peace and not whack him two days after his retirement!

If I did that, the poor man would be flat as a pancake by now...but we have accommodated well...having 3 finished floors helps
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:45 AM   #103
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What am I missing here? Does this mean there are Google searches that can irritate people that I need to be made aware of? That I am, through ignorance, deprived of some small joy?
I can't tell if you're being frivolous or serious, but for the rest of the board I'll offer an example.

In the military, the phrase "early retirement" is a pejorative reference to being forced out-- usually by medical issues-- on a smaller pension. It has other names like "temporary disabled retirement list" or "limited duty". I spent a lot of my career at training commands dealing with these types of issues, like HIV-positive active-duty servicemembers, and I understand their feelings. Essentially the servicemember is being forced out with minimal benefits and they usually object to some part of the process.

So that veteran, typically extremely unhappy and a bit distraught and forced into a series of quick decisions, will run a Google search for the words "military early retirement". This board's SEO makes it one of the first results for that term, usually ahead of the DoD and veteran's advocacy groups. This is why we've had veterans showing up here for advice on the military's medical evaluation process, and why I've written a FAQ to redirect them. Otherwise we're pretty much wasting their time (and the moderators' time), just like a high percentage of the other newbs who are funneled here by the marketing.

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I do, however, wonder about the "veteran" qualification. Do you really believe that someone who wasn't born here could have nothing of quality to offer merely because of a timing issue -- failing to stumble upon this forum quickly enough? You know, some of us are merely "slow learners" not deserving of such ridicule.
I think you could lighten up on the confrontational strawman approach.

I think that a person's posts quickly establish their credibility-- or lack of it. The more they post, the easier the conclusion. Their longevity through an economic cycle or two (especially the guys who were on the 1990s TMF ER board) also gives them a sense of perspective & balance that's much more credibile than the Pollyannas or doom&gloom posters. And when you've read 50 debates on whether or not to pay off the mortgage, you're able to sort through the issues and address the ones that pertain to an individual poster.

I'm open to new data and to aspects I hadn't considered. I spent 20 years in one of the military's harshest criticism crucibles, and I'm not easily offended by having my ideas subject to objective assessment. It's great when an expert in some other field, like electronics or taxes or landlording, shows up with their experience & widsom. But if a newer poster hasn't seen all the permutations of the ER issues on this board, then they aren't as much help as an ER who's been here for a while.

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Nords, it seems I'm always the last to hear about these sort of things (reminds me of the old w*rk days, last on the grapevine). Could you update me on what this is all about or point me to somewhere where this was discussed? Didn't know the site had changed to a "for profit" one. I've enjoyed reading your posts in the past.
I'd recommend that you take that up with Andy R.

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I've said it ad nausem: I don't care for the way this site is run for profit.
...but have no problem mining it for content for the book you are writing?
hear, hear...
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If I'm looking for experts, I go to where they are-- whether or not I agree with the board's management or some of its other posters. I've been through quite a few other military & ER boards and this is the one with the most experts.

Or maybe you think I have a profit motive. As the veterans know, and for the benefit of those who may not have bothered to read my "About Me" profile, the project is non-profit. I'm writing to learn more about the book process and to pay forward all the mentoring & advice I've received over the years from other veterans. Profits (if any) will go to military charities.

I'd pay the cost of publishing and give the copies away if I felt it would do any good. But I think readers would be more likely to value the book (and to spread the word) if their money was going to a good cause. Of course I'm not sure how to (or even if I should) bring this non-profit subject up with a publisher.

I also personally feel that some readers may believe a writer's ER advice is adversely impacted by royalties. Those readers are generally ignorant about how little money a writer really makes, especially at an hourly rate. (Bob Clyatt and the Kaderlis can vouch for that!) So donating to charity seems like a more positive contribution than having to deal with snide comments.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:46 AM   #104
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In addition, the "non-veterans" tend to be challenged more by others helping to ferret out bad advice.
I think this is an interesting observation. I know what you mean; that veteran posters tend to be given hall passes. I believe it is also true that the entire board used to be much more subject to challenge. This has trailed off; one reason I believe is moderation. At times the challenges escalated into real battles. The moderators task is keeping things civil or even friendly; not ruling on quality of information. Another reason for the change is that events in the world and markets show us just how uncertain are the various things we thought were true.

The last reason, and one I have recently found inhibiting my challenges to what may appear to me to be sloppy thinking, or unreliable premises, or any of the various things that take our thought down an unreliable path is that for the most part, who cares? If someone wants to believe some unlikely scenario, let him. I may think that it is unlikely, but clearly some others don't think so. I need to respect their ideas, but from a distance. I often don't want those ideas infecting me, and arguing with someone does immerse you in his ideas.

Success in markets or even in surviving retirement does not depend on how many people you convince that you are right; or how many people you spare from being wrong themselves. It just depends on being right about the big things, often enough to survive.

I think that debating with others almost never furthers this goal.

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Old 04-12-2009, 12:17 PM   #105
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No right or wrong here, just individual differences - some scored 7 on the narcissism test, some scored 20...
Speak for yourself. I scored 3.
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:18 PM   #106
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I can't tell if you're being frivolous or serious, but for the rest of the board I'll offer an example.

In the military, the phrase "early retirement" is a pejorative reference to being forced out-- usually by medical issues-- on a smaller pension. It has other names like "temporary disabled retirement list" or "limited duty". I spent a lot of my career at training commands dealing with these types of issues, like HIV-positive active-duty servicemembers, and I understand their feelings. Essentially the servicemember is being forced out with minimal benefits and they usually object to some part of the process.

So that veteran, typically extremely unhappy and a bit distraught and forced into a series of quick decisions, will run a Google search for the words "military early retirement". This board's SEO makes it one of the first results for that term, usually ahead of the DoD and veteran's advocacy groups. This is why we've had veterans showing up here for advice on the military's medical evaluation process, and why I've written a FAQ to redirect them. Otherwise we're pretty much wasting their time (and the moderators' time), just like a high percentage of the other newbs who are funneled here by the marketing.


I think you could lighten up on the confrontational strawman approach.

I think that a person's posts quickly establish their credibility-- or lack of it. The more they post, the easier the conclusion. Their longevity through an economic cycle or two (especially the guys who were on the 1990s TMF ER board) also gives them a sense of perspective & balance that's much more credibile than the Pollyannas or doom&gloom posters. And when you've read 50 debates on whether or not to pay off the mortgage, you're able to sort through the issues and address the ones that pertain to an individual poster.

I'm open to new data and to aspects I hadn't considered. I spent 20 years in one of the military's harshest criticism crucibles, and I'm not easily offended by having my ideas subject to objective assessment. It's great when an expert in some other field, like electronics or taxes or landlording, shows up with their experience & widsom. But if a newer poster hasn't seen all the permutations of the ER issues on this board, then they aren't as much help as an ER who's been here for a while.


I'd recommend that you take that up with Andy R.


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If I'm looking for experts, I go to where they are-- whether or not I agree with the board's management or some of its other posters. I've been through quite a few other military & ER boards and this is the one with the most experts.

Or maybe you think I have a profit motive. As the veterans know, and for the benefit of those who may not have bothered to read my "About Me" profile, the project is non-profit. I'm writing to learn more about the book process and to pay forward all the mentoring & advice I've received over the years from other veterans. Profits (if any) will go to military charities.

I'd pay the cost of publishing and give the copies away if I felt it would do any good. But I think readers would be more likely to value the book (and to spread the word) if their money was going to a good cause. Of course I'm not sure how to (or even if I should) bring this non-profit subject up with a publisher.

I also personally feel that some readers may believe a writer's ER advice is adversely impacted by royalties. Those readers are generally ignorant about how little money a writer really makes, especially at an hourly rate. (Bob Clyatt and the Kaderlis can vouch for that!) So donating to charity seems like a more positive contribution than having to deal with snide comments.
Nords, kudos to you on the book project. My comment wasn't intended to be snide, but to point out the fact that while you seem to be unhappy with the way the site has evolved, you have no problem utilizing it to further your own goals, (noble and non-profit notwithstanding) so it can 't be all bad.

As many of you know, I have been castigated for complaining about some of the recent forum changes. So, we do have something in common, but perhaps I should have waited until my post count reached some magical number? I've been here almost a year, and have learned a lot, offered what I can, and have saved the mods from a life of boredom...

I have no issue with the site being run as a for-profit venture, and in fact prefer it that way- makes it more likely to survive over time.
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:35 PM   #107
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and have saved the mods from a life of boredom...
I usually try to stay away from politics as I don't believe any debate here can change anyone's already made up mind. I can be very persistent in dealing with engineering problems and inanimate objects that most often have to obey the laws of physics, but in dealing with people I tend to give up sooner than later.

That said, I will allow that although I consider myself an independent, I often find myself agreeing with your viewpoints. Your tenacity in pursuing a debate is something that I find amusing. I almost laugh out lout a few times. Don't push it too far though.
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:43 PM   #108
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Nords, it seems I'm always the last to hear about these sort of things (reminds me of the old w*rk days, last on the grapevine). Could you update me on what this is all about or point me to somewhere where this was discussed? Didn't know the site had changed to a "for profit" one. I've enjoyed reading your posts in the past.
Also see:

Where is the Bunny??? #26 and #47 in particular but really the whole thing should be read.

What will the the future of www.early-retirement.org ? #58, #62, #72, #77, etc.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:14 PM   #109
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Also see:

Where is the Bunny??? #26 and #47 in particular but really the whole thing should be read.

What will the the future of www.early-retirement.org ? #58, #62, #72, #77, etc.
Ron, thanks for the links. I got way more then I bargained for with those . Never visited the Other Topics part of the ER forum. I just stick with this part of the forum and "Life After ER". Money and Life. Probably am too slow a reader.

Well at least I found out about where CFB went.

There is certainly a lot of angst nowadays. We all may need a breather from time to time.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:38 PM   #110
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I don't like it or dislike it. But I don't see why it is a problem. If it is a way for more spam to be initiated and sent to my email address, I haven't noticed it. Of course I have tons of emails filtered to the spam bucket, but I never read it.
It's not about spam. I just remember the pre-google days when computer bulletin boards, even though they were on-line, had a feeling of semi-privacy, and one could post information that could be considered private in the sense that only members of that forum would share it. Sure, they could pass it from board to board, but that was not likely, nor was it easy. I belonged to some boards back then in which I made many personal friends, some of which I still keep in touch with. Not to say this doesn't happen here, and not to say posters here are any less friendly. But just speaking for myself, I hold back on my posts because in the back of my mind I realize that whatever I post here will be instantly accessible around the world within hours. Sort of a chilling effect knowing the big brother cloud is out there looking down.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:32 PM   #111
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Personally, the worst part of being a moderator is that I can not 'ignore' anyone.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:40 PM   #112
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Personally, the worst part of being a moderator is that I can not 'ignore' anyone.
Just checking, would I be on that list?
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:53 PM   #113
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Just checking, would I be on that list?
Instead of asking everyone individually, why don't you put up a poll?
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:10 PM   #114
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I wonder what a wild-eyed newbie who stumbles on to one of these whizzing contests ideological debates thinks...

Damned early retirees sure are a grumpy bunch. I'd better stay at work...
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:15 PM   #115
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It's not about spam. I just remember the pre-google days when computer bulletin boards, even though they were on-line, had a feeling of semi-privacy, and one could post information that could be considered private in the sense that only members of that forum would share it. Sure, they could pass it from board to board, but that was not likely, nor was it easy. I belonged to some boards back then in which I made many personal friends, some of which I still keep in touch with. Not to say this doesn't happen here, and not to say posters here are any less friendly. But just speaking for myself, I hold back on my posts because in the back of my mind I realize that whatever I post here will be instantly accessible around the world within hours. Sort of a chilling effect knowing the big brother cloud is out there looking down.
I got ya. But who really knows who in the heck Dawg54 is? And I use different ID's for different boards. I do have a similar one for Raddr's, but rarely go over there anyway. So I doubt if anyone will ever tie my post from a sports board to me here. I guess they can if they have the ability to track my IP address, but can't imagine someone going to that trouble.

Of course my post are pretty insignificant anyway. Just here for fun.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:41 PM   #116
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I wonder what a wild-eyed newbie who stumbles on to one of these whizzing contests ideological debates thinks...

Damned early retirees sure are a grumpy bunch. I'd better stay at work...
Yeah, if only work didn't start so early, I'd stick with it, too.

I'll chime in again that Andy's operation of the board does not create an unreasonable burden to this moderator. I believe in capitalism and I'm okay with that, based on my private sector employment experience.

And Ron, it is kinda like BO--if you have to ask if you offend people...then.... Okay.

Ditto the grouchy old people. I'm here to have fun, darn it all!
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:48 PM   #117
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Instead of asking everyone individually, why don't you put up a poll?
Because then he would go from being a passive-aggressive kumquat to an active aggressive one.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:55 PM   #118
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I wonder what a wild-eyed newbie who stumbles on to one of these whizzing contests ideological debates thinks...

Damned early retirees sure are a grumpy bunch. I'd better stay at work...
Ah yes, work - - where everybody is such a cheery beam of sunshine? I think I'll go ahead and retire.
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:30 PM   #119
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A grumpy day retired is better than a good day at w*rk...
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:48 PM   #120
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I have no issue with the site being run as a for-profit venture, and in fact prefer it that way- makes it more likely to survive over time.
+1 on that! Just like that little example of the butcher, baker, brewer, each working in his own 'self interest'...

edit/add: just saw this from the referenced "Dory36 demoted!" thread:

Quote:
What began as a labor of love has become just labor. So what do you do in that situation? I actually considered shutting it all down a while back...
So yes, I think the profit motive is a good one to help assure this resource is here for us. Thanks Andy, and good fortune to you!

-ERD50
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