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Old 06-25-2008, 11:35 AM   #41
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Less than 1% of all folks who use Lake Michigan go out more than 5 miles, so what's the diff?
Yeah, unless you're a bird, what's the diff?

Actually I'm a fan of wind generated power and purchase it through our electric company. I always though I would love to have one of those big towers on my back 40 (OK, my back 3...). Then I saw this:

Maybe not..
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:52 PM   #42
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There was a big controversy about putting a wind farm out in Lake Michigan a couple years ago. The environmental folks were upset about the fact that some migrating birds would get killed by the windmills. Of course, being 10 miles offshore, who would know?

The wind farm could have produced enough energy to power 500,000 homes, but it's now dead. Less than 1% of all folks who use Lake Michigan go out more than 5 miles, so what's the diff?
I believe this touches at the heart of why we've done little in the way of energy policy in this country. For every alternative, there are vocal opponents, many well organized and/or funded. Whether it's wind farms killing birds, dangerous nukes, dirty coal, water rights issues WRT hydro, ethanol drives up (corn) food prices, unsightly/expensive solar panels, drilling offshore or at ANWR is environmentally unsafe, higher gas prices unfairly harm suburbanites and auto manufacturers --- ad nauseum. So we do nothing, and it's not the fault of our politicians alone. Something has to give and no one will give an inch - 'insanity is doing what you've always done and expecting different results.' We either drive the change to our best (least evil) advantage or we'll be forced to change in a way we don't like (and could have avoided). If we don't have a well-thought out energy policy irreversibly implemented within 4 years, we'll deserve what happens...
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Old 06-25-2008, 05:57 PM   #43
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Imaking bio diesel out of turkey waste
Its only a matter of time before some fru-fru folks come up with biodiesel made from turkey waste stuffed with duck waste stuffed with chicken waste.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:00 PM   #44
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Turducken-diesel?
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:18 PM   #45
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Turducken-diesel?


I think with oil prices as high as they are, there will be a host of alternatives and there will probably be a lot of money chasing the promising technologies and companies, but there will be many failures. Finding the next Cisco or Amazon or Google in this new arena will make some folks very rich I think.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:25 PM   #46
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Turducken-diesel?
Best I could come up with was diesturbioducken

Like I said, its been a long day.
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Old 06-25-2008, 06:40 PM   #47
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I believe this touches at the heart of why we've done little in the way of energy policy in this country. For every alternative, there are vocal opponents, many well organized and/or funded. Whether it's wind farms killing birds ... .
Yep, and what really gets me is, they don't consider how many birds are killed from pollution from coal plants, acid rain, loss of habitat from coal mining, birds killed in the process of mining...

I'd love to see the enviro-wackos ( and I mean the wackos - I'm certainly not characterizing all environmentalists as wackos) actually come up with a solution, rather than just claiming that everything everyone does is 'bad'.

wooops, are we in the Soap Box forum ??

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Old 06-26-2008, 07:29 AM   #48
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Everything is bad for someone, because everybody is part of some special interest group. That's just the way it is, and the way that energy policy is intertwined with American politics makes it very tough to have a reliable energy policy. So much of our economy is based off of energy, and to make many changes would certainly hurt some special interest groups more than others, who are inevitably the most vocal. Anyone feel that since Iowa is the first primary for Democrats and Republicans alike, it is absolutely necessary for any presidential elect to have a pro-ethanol stance (John McCain did skip out on Iowa, if I recall correctly). I still stand by nuclear, even with the large infrastructure costs, it will save money and headaches over time. I mean we are in a forum where we encourage spending a little now (on investing) for long term results, rights?
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:04 AM   #49
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I'd love to see the enviro-wackos ( and I mean the wackos - I'm certainly not characterizing all environmentalists as wackos) actually come up with a solution, rather than just claiming that everything everyone does is 'bad'.
I'm sure you'd be hard-pressed to get them to admit it, but I suspect the ones on the very far side would be happier with a severe reduction in the number of people on this planet.

I've been thinking the past few days. I need to mull it over some more, but I'm not so sure that I'm an environmentalist. At the very least, that's the fad du jour. Rather, I think I'm going to call myself a pragmatic conservationist.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:58 AM   #50
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I'm sure you'd be hard-pressed to get them to admit it, but I suspect the ones on the very far side would be happier with a severe reduction in the number of people on this planet.
I think the severe reduction is going to occur, no matter as to anyone's opinions on whether or not it is a good idea..
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:01 AM   #51
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I'm sure you'd be hard-pressed to get them to admit it, but I suspect the ones on the very far side would be happier with a severe reduction in the number of people on this planet.
I think the world would be a much more stable place if the human population were half of what it is today.

I wouldn't support coercive or criminal measures to get there, but I do believe our future would be a lot more sustainable if we stopped causing demand for finite resources to be stretched thinner and thinner by population growth.
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Old 06-26-2008, 01:30 PM   #52
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A couple easy ways to play AE

Ticker TAN for solar.

And ticker FAN for wind.
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Old 06-26-2008, 04:41 PM   #53
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Yes alternative energy could be the "next big thing". Here's a good question:

1) look at the S&P 500- which companies in it look to be able to profit from an investment in alternative energy?

2) look at a wilshire 5000/ TSM fund and see if any alternative energy funds are found there.

My take- more than likely few companies are in the S&P 500 which represent this sector, so wilshire 4500 or wilshire 5000 is where to be if you index.

The tech bubble, I have read, was 50-75% due to the increase in Microsoft, Dell, Intel, Oracle, Cisco and a few other key tech firms. Meaning the increase in market cap of these 5-10 companies accounted for 50-75% of the gain of the S&P 500.

Alternative energy, or a similar bubble, will probably be concentrated as well. Find the companies now, while their market cap is low.
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Old 06-26-2008, 05:21 PM   #54
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Then I saw this:
That was neat -- looks like the turbine rotated clockwise (looking from the top) until one of the blades hit the tower.
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Old 06-26-2008, 05:52 PM   #55
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My DD, who works for a VC, passed me the Singularity book. I agree that we will see results in AE development in the next 10 years, hopefully sooner. When I look at what oil companies have not done in the last 10 years I suspect that they saw this demand push-pull coming and were of the opinion that there was no way demand for gasoline could be produced at a cost-effective level long term. Societally, the best way to make the transition to AE is through pricing mechanisms - high gas and oil prices, but it will be tough for many households.

The early AE adapters will pay a premium, a few years later AE will shake out and the more effective methods will be available at a lower cost per Jule, a few years after that it will be in common use.

I think that shortly we will see results in bio-science for energy production, engineering for solar power and energy storage. Lately I have seen trucks going down I-5 with parts of wind generation systems.

Pay attention to what electric power companies are sweating.. companies leasing rooftops for solar to take advantage of tax incentives. I really wish the need for tax incentives would go away because it is distorting the operation of the market.

I am rambling so need to shut up.
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Old 06-27-2008, 02:14 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by REWahoo View Post
Yeah, unless you're a bird, what's the diff?

Actually I'm a fan of wind generated power and purchase it through our electric company. I always though I would love to have one of those big towers on my back 40 (OK, my back 3...). Then I saw this:

Maybe not..
We had several out in my part of the swamp in the 70's - one guy tryed it three times/two different propeller styles before he conceeded 'it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature.'

Of course this time it's different. Smarter brand of engineer's this generation.

?Evolution not revolution?

heh heh heh - Progress. .
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:41 AM   #57
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I agree that we will be going through an evolution. Husband and I were going through old family photos, great grandparents used a horse and buggy. Consider for a moment how fast the auto became the mode of transportation - and they needed to create a manufacturing process. This transformation will happen much quicker.
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:01 AM   #58
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AE will be the driving force that will spawn an entirely new international industry.

It's deja vu all over again. Lol. Doesn't anyone remember Jimmy Carter and the 1970's?
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:04 AM   #59
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The tech bubble, I have read, was 50-75% due to the increase in Microsoft, Dell, Intel, Oracle, Cisco and a few other key tech firms. Meaning the increase in market cap of these 5-10 companies accounted for 50-75% of the gain of the S&P 500.

Alternative energy, or a similar bubble, will probably be concentrated as well. Find the companies now, while their market cap is low.
Yes, but be careful. If you invest in one of the players who doesn't make it, you lose everything. The trick is picking the BEST company(ies).
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:16 AM   #60
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The planet needs space solar generated electricity
which will provide clean and unlimited electricity not
only for electric cars but also for desalination [the
world is quickly running out of oil and fresh water.]

If NASA can't develop and perfect a space solar
energy project on its own, then it needs to team up
with the ESA and Russia [NASA already works with
the ESA on SOHO and Russia on the ISS.]

I asked my brother, who is one of NASA's few remaining
Apollo era scientists, about space solar, and he said:
" Initially developing space solar would be quite expensive,
but the $$$ spent on the war in Iraq would be a start."

I say: Make space solar energy, not war !!
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