Alternative to Divorce?

Alternative to divorce?

Cash out all your accounts, fill a couple duffel bags and disappear.
 
Trek said:
Alternative to divorce?

Cash out all your accounts, fill a couple duffel bags and disappear.
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Yeah; I suggest one of the outer islands in the Indonesian Archipelago.

Also, does anyone else think this guy is getting a pretty hard time from us? If a woman showed up on these boards, and told the exact same story about commuting 100 miles a day, being totally stressed out by her work load, while having a husband who stayed home with the kids, but now the kids are in school, keeps house but poorly, and refuses to dialogue on either of these issues- we would be all over "what a bum he is, dump this lazy free-loading slob, talk to your barracuda of choice now!"

I think the main good that could come from this thread is as an example to single men. Tread carefully boys, there are tiger traps out there. And if you fall into the pit, don't expect much empathy even from your fellow warriors.

Ha
 
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I'm actually amazed that not many people related to the resentment that builds up when one person contributes more to a relationship financially than the other. Yeah, you can say that the spouse that stays home and takes care of the house and kids is on "equal footing". But compare working at home as a "domestic engineer" to a high pressure job with no end in sight...I see little comparison. ... Some people have gotten used to the gravy train and don't want it to end! ...
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DallasGuy, a job can be "high-pressure" but also money-making (v. important to the OP), status-giving, and intellectually stimulating, plus it gets you out into the world, even if that's not always pleasant.

GP0S3Y is out of his cotton-pickin' mind if he thinks taking care of a household is a 10-15 hr./week job, even if you don't vacuum every day. I would say meal preparation alone occupies at least 10 hrs/wk. of my time, not counting shopping OR cleaning up.

Having just got finished with making & cleaning up after lunch (1 hr.), ironing shirts (1 hr.), scrubbing grody stove (25 min., 1x/week or so), vacuuming & washing kitchen floor (45 min.), dealing with and cleaning up after the plumber (1 hr.).. I've had a pretty full afternoon by now (5:45).. and I don't even have kids..

No one, including the OP even really mentioned any time his wife spends with the kids aside from "shuttling" but I'd imagine that would include school admin. crap, making lunches/snacks, taking them shopping for clothes/supplies or doing that for them, doing their laundry, helping them with homework and school projects. Maybe there are "bake sales" and fundraising drives and field-trip chaperoning. He doesn't say how old his kids are, but if they are under 12 your afterschool time is going to be occupied with them, and not housework.. my sis runs from one mess to the next with their painting projects and other stuff they "need".. "Mooooommm!!!"

Kids in school full-time for 3 years sounds like the littlest is what? 8? 9?

I can see where the wife is coming from. She may well be depressed. I think I am borderline depressed sometimes.. because I gave up fairly interesting work. Now when I get up, I don't have any j*b worries, but I can look forward to.. house-cleaning... yay!

Wow, what a great "gravy train" this gal is on.. a life of housecleaning in exchange for room, board, and a husband that's trying to TIME his divorce options to max them out for HIMSELF.

Of course, I can blow off cleaning and have fun. And a very dirty house, which is not fun. I am NOT a perfectionist, and the place is a sty at times. It takes a lot more work than you think, and it is pretty soul-deadening. It's great the OP helps out some "when she is busy", but what is she "busy" doing at these times? Her nails? The wash?


"No end in sight" for the OP is 5 years. That is a great position to be in at 39. He has a lot more options than most people, financially. I'm glad the OP went into more detail and gave us a more balanced picture, but the fact he's still worried about his post-divorce stash.. and that in two long posts I didn't catch ANY mention of what this divorce would do TO HIS KIDS.. just lots and lots of detail on what it would do to his FINANCES makes me bearish.

I just thought it was cool to marry my wife who I loved for years before we tied the knot.
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Hold that thought.

Before I suggested she go back to work, I suggested that we switch roles for a few years with her working and my getting to spend some time with the kids. ... I laid out the framework for her… it would only be for a few years, while I recuperate, exercise and get healthy and spend some time with the kids. ... I promised we would sit down and re-evaluate where we are in three years… maybe I will be healthy and ready to start a business or reenter the work force. Maybe she’ll have been promoted at a good company with reasonable working conditions and hours. Maybe our investment portfolio would be large enough to .. I thought that the above scenario was not unreasonable. She thought it was. Further discussions on the subject were constantly derailed.
Her unwillingness to compromise on this issue led me to evaluate who is putting what into this union, which is when I realized she wouldn’t trade positions with me for anything.
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YOU picked a high-paying high-stress job because YOU want to retire at 45. Now that YOUR CHOICE is taking its toll.. you've given HER the ultimatum! Two choices: Your first "offer" was that she go back to work and take on ALL the breadwinning duties. Your second "offer" was that she go back to work part-time. There is no third offer. Oh.. wait.. there is:
If I do decide to do something rash, like quitting my job and accepting a lower pay job and giving up my dreams of ER
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How much lower-paying could this job be?? So you retire at 50 and not 45.. Is it really EASIER to contemplate breaking up your family than deferring retirement or living with a dirty carpet??

working hard for a woman
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.. no, you are working hard for YOU..
SHE's not spending the extra money.. she's willing and able to keep her and the kids' spending to w/in 30% of your salary with the house expenses included. You obviously don't realize how unusual that is... Why don't YOU take a part-time job at 50% salary and semi-retire? You'd still be able to save 20% which is STILL more than most people!!
 
For anyone who has walked the halls of a high functioning school - you will see the army of stay at home moms and dads, and some crazy working moms and dads who volunteer their time to make the school a wonderful place. My daughters Kindergarten class has 13 volunteers out of 19 students - pretty great returns for all the kids in the class. My daughter's dance studio also has an army of stay at home moms who sew, shop, decorate, plan all kinds of incredible things for the kids that would definitely suffer if they evaporated from the scene.

So there is often a lot MORE to staying at home - and contributing to the family, school and community life. I don't know of a community that has a great family atmosphere that doesn't fully utilize all the stay at home parents to the maximum...

of course, every stay at home parent is not the golden volunteer - A friend of mine works full time and her boyfriend stayed home to "take care of the kids" - which meant sleeping, surfing ebay and playing video games while the kids vegged...

Anyhow - i think Nords hit the nail on the head - with addressing your dissatisfaction with your demanding job - or letting go a little and making a difficult choice to find a new line of work and disrupt your ambitious ER plan. I think she may not "hear" your issues perhaps because she is busy "defending" herself and her position - which your posts have obviously diminished/downplayed - combined with your resentment, tiredness etc - could not have been a positive conversation.

Learning how to be a stay at home mom may have been her goal, or may not I don't know. But I know a LOT of parents who are very traumatized by the experience and once they "figure it out" would again be traumatized if someone tried to take over their role.

Divorce can hit kids much like a death in the family - even though "everyone's doing it" doesn't mean it isn't having an incredible affect on kids everyday, everywhere....
 
WOW, WOW.

HK1970, you convinced me with your last post you're not a troll. Somehow, unfortunately, many of us lose our bearings in our relationships. If you still love your wife as your soulmate -- and it seems that this is the most critical issue confronting you -- you will find a way to get through this crisis. This will entail a lot of hard work. Stop looking at the relationship from the jaded prisism of dollars and cents -- it detracts from the real issue afflicting your partnership arrangement -- and it sounds like you just want to "pimp" your wife out to work and are unfairly maligning her choices in your relationship.
 
Wow. I think some posters are forgetting that a marriage is a partnership. He's cratering his health because of stress from work. She hasn't worked for years. So why is it all on his shoulders to earn a living? He can't stay home and take care of the kids? She can't make an hour commute?

He even wrote this in his 2nd posting:

"Before I suggested she go back to work, I suggested that we switch roles for a few years with her working and my getting to spend some time with the kids."

That sounds fair to me.

Instead, most posters here are telling him that being a stay-at-home parent is difficult, time-consuming, a real job, yadda yadda. All true, but it doesn't have to be performed by the woman. It's 2008, not 1955, people.


Edit: I should add that another solution is part-time work for one or both. If the OP is 5 years from ER, then part-time work would lengthen that goal but might preserve sanity.
 
HK1970 said:
..........I still have not reached a satisfactory solution. While one person wonders why I am turning to the internet for advice, I don’t really feel that this group is just ‘the internet.’ ............

........ She also says she is a perfectionist. She has never been diagnosed as having OCD. On multiple occasions when I have brought up getting help she has refused, even though it would be free through my Company’s EAP. As an example, it took me two years to get her to call me when I am at work.

.......... She thought that I was too busy and didn’t want to interrupt, in spite of my repeated calls to her while I was at work and my assurances that it is ok to call. She says it was her OCD, though she calls now. Another example… it took many years for her to finally feel comfortable having a babysitter at the house so we could have time to ourselves. Even her mother was not allowed to babysit. I spent years stressing to her the importance of ‘our time’ together and only got through to her after a number of years.


I guess I still have some thinking to do about love. .......


Several of you suggested counseling. I think that if I do decide to do something rash, like quitting my job and accepting a lower pay job and giving up my dreams of ER, I will seek counseling..............

In retrospect, I think I was probably a little naïve when I got married. I was young and dumb when I graduated from college. I had no idea that the state marriage laws were so rigid and ruinous...............


I fear that these circumstances may have ruined my chances at ER. I’ll be stuck living in squalor or working in some less stressful position many, many more years.[quote]

You are asking for help. Why not be serious about it and get some real help. You reached a point where you had to vent, and you found it easy to post in this forum and lay out your side of the story with no real "threat" of having to actually work on the problems of your situation.

If you are serious about bringing more satisfaction/happiness/resolution to your situation, why not get counselling. By that I mean professional personal counselling for yourself, as well as couples counselling and personal counselling for your wife if she is amenable.

About I highlighted several points in your last post where you show you WERE able to get your wife to act on behaviors that were troublesome to you. You yourself tell us she has responded to you in the past, and HAS CHANGED--for you! Some people would call her actions "COMPROMISE". Why would you not expect more of this in the future?

As to your comments on state marriage laws being "rigid and ruinous", I'm not sure what your expectations of marriage were from the get-go. You apparently now rue the fact of having gotten a state-sanctioned marriage.

Ask yourself this: What were you thinking when you married the woman you loved, the woman "who I had loved for years before tying the knot...", and when you stated your vow "for better or worse, though sickness and health, till death do us part..."? What were you thinking? Oh, these are just words, they don't mean anything? They are not a lifelong challenge of standards to try to live up to? Oh, I loved her for years and wanted her to be my wife, BUT.....?

As to you last point about "...may have ruined my chances at ER. I'll be stuck in squalor, etc...", your future is dependent on your own attitude.

Happiness is a choice. Make the choice.

You came here crying out for help. Get yourself some real help, where you will have to be accountable. Get some personal counselling, talk the love of your life into getting some personal counselling, and get some couples counselling. (Remember, you already told us she has responded to you before on changing some behavior. Talk to her again.)

And finally, be a man. Live up to your wedding vows. The vows you took when you married the love of your life.
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haha said:
Say what? This is an extremely perjorative way of viewing this.

Ha
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Maybe so, but that's what my wife insists that I'm doing by not "letting" her retire from work. >:D
 
HK1970 said:
she simply refuses to get a job, stating that ‘she likes not working’.
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LOL! Don't we all!
HK1970 said:
I no longer feel that the burden of life’s responsibilities are equal and I am at my wits end.
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Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, and it sounds like your situation is very lopsided. As another posted said, it seems as though your wife has already "ER'd" without you. Knowing that you're unhappy slaving away for the family, yet unwilling to give up her own carefree lifestyle sounds very selfish to me. In fact, there's a term for husbands like you: "Sugar Daddies." You did mention that she's quite a bit younger than you - perhaps that's a factor here? I don't mean to sound insensitive, just trying to get a clearer picture here.

That said, we've only heard your side of the story, which is undoubtedly biased.

There's no easy way to get out of this without being taken to the cleaners by lawyers and judges. A divorce will decimate your retirement savings and devastate you emotionally (although you don't really seem very concerned about that).

As others have said, try counseling. One of two things is occurring here. Either

a) She doesn't truly hear your objections; or
b) She hears them just fine - she just doesn't care.

(a) can be fixed by counseling, if you do indeed both truly love each other. If it's (b), then there's no clean way out of this. She's not just going to let you walk away with half your money, forcing her to get a job to pay her own way. Why would she? She'd fight for every penny she's entitled to (and as you've already discovered, that's a lot).
 
The bottom line, OP, is that you have to choose one of the following two:

1. Your wife and kids.
2. FIRE.

Right now you're choosing FIRE. If you keep on this path, I believe there is greater than an 80% chance that you will end up like me. You will be divorced, most likely because she will divorce you. You won't get to see your kids grow up -- the court will be biased towards awarding her primary custody because she is the mom and she has been staying at home with the kids. Your standard of living will drop 30-40%. You will still be able to FIRE, but your FIRE date will likely move back by several years because of legal costs, child support, and your reduced focus on your career and job as you deal with the divorce and taking care of your kids and house part time. Your FIRE will be a phyrric victory.

Or you can relax your singular focus on FIRE and consider the possibility that much of what you believe to be true is wrong: "It's her fault that my life is not where I want it to be" "She doesn't contribute equally to the household" "She may divorce me at some point in the future and take most of my money" I don't know as much about this choice but I wish I did.

I chose FIRE about five years ago. In retrospect, it would have been better for me, my wife, and my kids if I had chosen the latter. Once I realized my mistake I tried sincerely and with a great deal of effort to fix it. Unfortunately, it was, to quote my now ex-wife, "Too little, too late."

2Cor521
 
Try and find a Men's group in your area. When I first FIRE'd I joined some Men's group in the Silicon Valley, and about half the guys were middle aged high earners dealing with the intracacies of potential or actual divorces. It's a great way to get advice and support from others who are in the same situation and who know your situation in detail.

It sounds like one of your biggest problems is feeling unsupported, and maybe getting some support outside of the marriage would help.
 
The original OP is in the "crazy thinking" stage of a deteriorating marriage -- evidenced by his absurd sham-divorce idea -- exacerbated by the stress of his job.

In this crazy stage, he (and she) need help -- or things will be said that will be irrevocable and lead inevitably to divorce. Lots of ideas can be put forth here that are semi-reasonable, but we don't know them and can't know what's actually practicable. This is why they need counseling -- marriage counselor, psychologist, whatever. To discuss their feelings about the situation and how they can adapt them where possible, and accept them where not.

The alternative is all downhill from here.
 
Classic mid-life crisis. See if you can find a copy of 'The Grey Itch'.
 
This is kind of like deciding guilt after hearing only the prosecution.

I'll bet we would hear a completely different story if we heard the wife's side.
 
Rustic23 said:
This is kind of like deciding guilt after hearing only the prosecution.

I'll bet we would hear a completely different story if we heard the wife's side.
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No doubt, but we have convicted him anyway. He never should have taken the stand!

Ha
 
The 50/50 split the law requries today is based on the assumption that each partner contributes 50% of the assets. If each partner does that then it all seems logical. However, often one partner does not effectively contribute as perhaps in your case. In effect, you become a life long caretaker. The financial parameters will only become worse over time. You would need to carefully consider all things relating to cost to determine the best course. The mistake that we make is not seeing the red flag the moment one partner slacks off. Marriage today is a business and for each partner to receive the consideration he or she deserves small failures should be seen as big failures and acknowledged as in any business. I know if my business partner was absent for more than 5 days I would have no choice but to put him/her on disability with appropriate evaluation. If you continue to function in the role of caretaker you should join a support group. If is not easy to provide care for someone over time on a continous basis.
 
I haven't read all of the posts but have read quite a few. I agree with many that the OP should seek counseling. A life problem like this requires being able to have a close intimate conversation with a skilled, wise counselor.

BUT HOW DOES HE FIND A GOOD COUNSELOR?

I think this is critical but without a good reference you are shooting in the dark.
 
Wags said:
Maybe Unclemick is a man of few words. And there's nothing wrong with that.:cool:

You might get more then a few words out of him if you played him the song Red Necks, White Socks, & Blue Ribbon Beer by Johnny Russell.
YouTube - Red Necks, White Socks, & Blue Ribbon Beer by Johnny Russell

Maybe this HK1970 needs to take Leonardo's old or soon to be ex-girlfriend.

GOD BLESS:angel:
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She only shot him once - plus the prosecutor said a 25 auto is hardly big enough to count as a real gun in Louisiana. The judge put her under doctor's care - she's been taking her OCD med's since 1979. She shacked up with her divorce lawyer for a number of years - the numbers worked out that they stayed married so she got medical insurance (still are as of this year). He retired from the old rocket plant started and sold a small business and is now a jobshopper in Huntsville. The lawyer went to jail for exagerating auto injury claims a tad too much so she got a job. At pushing 63 and 70 they both work.

Sheeesh and people wonder why I say pssst - Wellesley at lot. Nobody I know ever listens to my advice.

Plus my sister now informs me she has switched to Green Bay cause her kids are still sticking with the Pats. Logical - ?right?

heh heh heh - what pissed me off - back when this happened about four of us guys used to Blackpowder shoot on weekends. Three of them soon took up golf. BTW - she claims to be a distant relative of Jerry Lee Lewis.
 
unclemick said:
She only shot him once - plus the prosecutor said a 25 auto is hardly big enough to count as a real gun in Louisiana. The judge put her under doctor's care - she's been taking her OCD med's since 1979. She shacked up with her divorce lawyer for a number of years - the numbers worked out that they stayed married so she got medical insurance (still are as of this year). He retired from the old rocket plant started and sold a small business and is now a jobshopper in Huntsville. The lawyer went to jail for exagerating auto injury claims a tad too much so she got a job. At pushing 63 and 70 they both work.

Sheeesh and people wonder why I say pssst - Wellesley at lot. Nobody I know ever listens to my advice.

Plus my sister now informs me she has switched to Green Bay cause her kids are still sticking with the Pats. Logical - ?right?

heh heh heh - what pissed me off - back when this happened about four of us guys used to Blackpowder shoot on weekends. Three of them soon took up golf. BTW - she claims to be a distant relative of Jerry Lee Lewis.
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I can see where it would ruin your weekend. Just like in the case of John Wayne Bobbit when he had the unfortunate accident with his wife Lorena way back in 1993. It's just a shame that some of the women folk resort to such violence when love goes bad.

Maybe the "Streets of Bakersfield by the late GREAT Buck Owens and Dwight Yoakam would be an appropriate song for instances of violence such as this.
YouTube - Dwight Yoakam with Buck Owens - Streets Of Bakersfield

GOD BLESS:angel:
 
Wags, that one was a real alternative to divorce, yessir! Or to marriage for that matter.

But I think if we lob these back and forth the mods are going to send us home.

By the way, how about those back muscles on the gal in white?

Ha
 
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