Alternative to Divorce?

[ladelfina]

Caroline.. fantastic post..

Al.. yep, I was thinking about this.
Let's say the guy takes home (just for ease of calculation) $100k after tax, and the family spends $30k. This has been going on 10 years so they have $700k plus whatever gains on that; at 8% compounded annually this is around a million bucks, which more or less seems in the range (proportionally, if not in actual dollars) of where he is figuring his 'retiring now in squalor' scenario. During this time (him working hard; wife working hard with little kids) things were "equal" in his mind.

Now, he'd like to retire both early and "well". So that requires an extra 5 years (continuing to save at the same rate would give them $2million in 5 years). While he sees this 5-year "home stretch" as impossible, he "presents plans" to his wife that are very black and white and extreme, as Caroline points out.. instead of trying to be creative in all the myriad ways this shortfall could be resolved. It could be a part-time job for him (and not just as a Wal*Mart greeter). It could be reduced spending. It could be a home business they work on together. It could be a lot of things in combination. HK1970, read Caroline's post multiple times. kaudrey also made excellent points and re-assumed key other ones.

Al, I love your rug idea. It could become a family activity!

Also, here's an idea for a collaborative home-based business:
Would you wear a cat hair sweater? - Styledash

I'm still worried that he is preoccupied with the divorce stuff when that should be the last thing on his mind. Whether now or later, it's gonna be bad, bad, bad and he should do everything in his power to make sure that doesn't happen, since it sounds like something neither of them want! That means working on what's causing his frustration w/his job to spill over into resentment towards his wife, who really doesn't seem to be 'demanding' all that much, at least not in proportion to his resentments and fears.

Shawn, as far as the "worth" argument is concerned.. I agree that husbands have similar kinds of "worth" as do wives! That's why we should ALL appreciate the hell out of each other.

HK1970, I'm glad that you scored 'normal'. Hope you are not offended as it was not meant that way; it is a condition that happens and can comport a certain rigidity in thinking, yet many people can learn to work with it.

and as growingolder pointed out.. you have kept a remarkably patient attitude given all the negative reaction! But still you seem to be missing something, and focusing on the negatives much more than on the positives:

The comments about her response to my proposal of stopping work are interesting. If she did indeed say that she didn’t want to be with me anymore because of that, it would be quite ironic since she told me that she isn’t interested in switching roles with me and working for a while. For those who think she may leave me over this, is there some reason why I should be the only one expected to work in this relationship?

But she didn't say that! You said she "wasn't totally opposed to" your quitting right now and living in reduced circumstances from the ones you'd envisioned. That sounds pretty on-board to me as far as it goes; she ISN'T expecting you to work the way YOU are expecting you to work.. Read Caroline's post. All the best wishes..

 

[cardude]

From a certified, but recovering, dumba$$ :

Quit worrying so much about money and focus on your family. If you have a crappy family relationship then all the money in the world is not going to matter.

 

[Lazarus]

All last year she volunteered at one of the kids activities every Monday night. So I would come home, eat by myself and sit in front of the TV wondering why she couldn’t even take one single Monday off to be with me while the kids were at their activity (there were plenty of other adults at the activity each week to supervise the children – most parents just dropped their kids off and came to pick them up two hours later). I asked her time and time again to take just a Monday or two off during the year… she said she was needed at the activity. I realize now that this activity was in line with her set of goals of raising the kids.

===================================================

What prevents you from going with her?

 

[Razor]

All last year she volunteered at one of the kids activities every Monday night. So I would come home, eat by myself and sit in front of the TV wondering why she couldn’t even take one single Monday off to be with me while the kids were at their activity (there were plenty of other adults at the activity each week to supervise the children – most parents just dropped their kids off and came to pick them up two hours later). I asked her time and time again to take just a Monday or two off during the year… she said she was needed at the activity. I realize now that this activity was in line with her set of goals of raising the kids.

===================================================

What prevents you from going with her?

Try tuesday?

 

[USK Coastie]

HK1970 have you considered dumping the job, selling the house, and buying an RV yet? Home school the kids (both of you) and just travel the country until you find someplace you really like. The kids will get a much better education than from most public schools and the places visited will make a lasting impression. Like, is it better to study the Civil War in a book or visit several of the battlefields to gain a perspective on the scope of that War.

I too had a high stress job with a 110 mile daily commute. Found this Forum and FIRECALC . I had always figured I'd have to work until 60 but I left 3 years early at 57. Don't miss the w**k a bit. My lifestyle is not as high as I'd like i.e. $30k/yr travel budget but I smile that ER smile every day

 

[eridanus]

You said she "wasn't totally opposed to" your quitting right now and living in reduced circumstances from the ones you'd envisioned. That sounds pretty on-board to me as far as it goes; she ISN'T expecting you to work the way YOU are expecting you to work..

Or she was calling his bluff.

 

[TickTock]

I'll heartily second (third?) TromboneAl's idea. Post income, expenses, net worth... you'll get (more objective) opinions on your financial situation.


HK1970,

I have an important question for you.

Assume for the moment that tomorrow you find a legal way to end your marriage without your ex-wife having a claim to half your assets. The asset split would be according to the assets you both brought to the marriage and the earnings since. And you wouldn't have to pay any support for your children.

What would would you do?

 

[Beer man]

I certainly understand your situation. Been there myself and placed my 1st post on this forum when I reached the breaking point. Let me tell you what I have done since that point last summer.
#1 Vent Vent Vent...it feels good and gets rid of some of the toxins
#2 Unilaterally cut back on work. Tell the boss you need a half day a week to attend to family and then take that time for yourself. Go for a walk. Do the grocery shopping. Listen to some music. Read something entertaining. Just do something besides work. It's amazing how that half day changes your attitude.
#3 Put ER on the back burner for 6 to 12 months and decompress. You(and I) have issues to solve that can't be fixed overnight.
#4 Buy Bob Clyatt's book Work Less Live More and read it. Then read it again.
#5 Make the commute tolerable. Go to the library and get books on tape or cd. It really helps to make the time pass quicker and takes your mind off other issues for 90 minutes.

The key here is to step back from the breaking point, and allow yourself some time for some rational thought. There are many, many more options than the 3 you've mentioned. You just need some time to clear your head so you can discover them. Good luck to you.

 

[Texas Proud]

Man.... just read this for the first time... and lots of 'advice' of what to do... SOOOOO, why not me

1> First, I have never met a woman who would put herself in a worse financial situation just so you can have a better one.... on your so called 'divorce' and stay together... why would she agree?? It is only saying in her mind "OK, if YOU leave me in the future, I get screwed as I have nothing"... I do not think this will happen... and I also think it is a bad idea... what about common law marriages?

2> Why are you so stressed at work? MOST people I have met that are 'stressed' are causing this stress on themselves... it is not the job or the boss... and if you are able to quit and live in squalor more power to YOU at work... you would be surprised how a boss reacts when you refuse to do something that is against your wishes and you say 'fire me'..

3> Have you tried to change jobs at your work? I would bet there are less stressful jobs you can do and keep working...

4> About 'Monday' and not getting attention... what about the other 6 days? Sounds like YOU need to get involved with the raising of your kids and that YOU are being taken care of well...

5> Let's see... I can work another 5 years and make money... and then retire and NOT DO ANYTHING, but have my wife keep doing what she had been doing.... sounds like a good trade to me.. she is putting in 30 years of 'housework' to you 5 of 'working'...

6> She seems to have the SAME goal as you about retiring... if not, she would be spending a LOT more money, but you say you save 70%... so she is not out there 'wasting' YOUR money

7> Who decided to spend the $2500 on gifts This sounds to me like your decision, not hers... so YOU are the problem here also...

All this adds up to that YOU have a problem that you need to get some counseling to resolve.... you are jealous that you wife does not work.. and you think she is 'taking advantage' of YOU... (wow, we keep coming back to you for some reason)..

As someone else said... she might be right on the edge of divorcing you also.... that YOU do not care for the family and YOU only care about money... and she wants a more loving husband who is HAPPY...

time for an attitude adjustment IMO....

 

[bright eyed]

That being said, I do feel like she may be taking advantage of her situation, but maybe I am the one who allowed that to happen by not being more insistent in the past about her returning to work.

What I think I realized over the last couple of days is that she has a whole different set of goals totally unrelated (and seemingly totally incongruent) to my ER plans. A couple people mentioned this. I think perhaps this is the core of the problem. I come home from a stressful week at my job and I am looking for her to get a babysitter so she and I can go out together and blow off some steam. She doesn’t make this a priority because helping me relieve the stresses of the week isn’t really part of her set of goals. All last year she volunteered at one of the kids activities every Monday night. So I would come home, eat by myself and sit in front of the TV wondering why she couldn’t even take one single Monday off to be with me while the kids were at their activity (there were plenty of other adults at the activity each week to supervise the children – most parents just dropped their kids off and came to pick them up two hours later).

A couple of people mentioned respecting the life she has built for herself and the children. That is a good point. I do feel that I respect the life she has built for our family which is why she hasn’t worked for the last 10 years. This has afforded her the opportunity to work on all of her child-rearing goals unimpeded by financial worries. When I asked her to switch roles with me, she looked at her goals (maintaining the house, raising the children, etc) and felt that her working and my staying home would not further her goals. So she said no. I am not sure I agree… I think I could be a good stay at home Dad. But either way, I do respect what she does for us, for the life she has built for me and the children and I respect her plan.

DUDE! You are not getting it at all - ALL of your posts have inferred that the kids, house etc are HER goals - She is getting that message loud and clear as we are here...

Many women go through the first year after a baby is born - in shock, despair and depression - letting go of the fantasy we had that the baby would help the couple bond and have this magical parent relationship. It's a world of vastly different expectations and often - the new moms have to decide if they will put up with the dad's "contributions" to the new baby or leave - if she decided to stay, she probably decided that it was completely up to her if the kids were going to have a decent, loving supportive life. You exhibit this thoroughly - you hardly mention the kids except in this "future" talk about er'g and don't seem to have gone much out of your way to do stuff in the "now" with the explanation of your tough job etc.

Well, I can tell you that is crap because there are dad's who do go out of their way to volunteer, even though they work full time, show up to stuff and maintain interest. I think you checked out a LONG time ago and all of your insistance that you want to ER to spend time with the kids are probably met with one of these or .

Then - to say you want a night for you two to spend together - after disregarding what she does 24/7, making it clear you do not value it presents itself as needy and selfish.

For you to say that raising the kids well, helping out with their activities and helping to maintain the house are "her" goals and "incongruant" to yours makes you very good divorce material.

The folks here who are close or have ER'd as a couple have done so because they worked as a TEAM and appreciated each others contributions very well. I'm always very impressed with the fellas here who so outwardly, consistantly appreciate their spouses because it is in such stark contrast to the mainstream world right now. But of course it takes extraordinary people to ER successfully and happily - not just ER.

Some people have said you need to share your feelings in a kind way - I think you need to shut up and LISTEN to your wife. Really listen or you are going to see everything evaporate in front of your face.

If you took time to see how your wife and kids REALLY view you - you might get over your pity party and realize you've screwed up pretty bad here and need to start taking action now. Sometimes when you do one thing really well (for you it was busting your butt at work, but not the same effort at home) - other balls have dropped - and that is your wife and kids.

 

[HK1970]

I didn’t really come here looking for marital advice, though I am glad that so many of you were willing to share. Caroline your message was a good one. I can tell you put some thought into it and I think you are right. My job would be lousy regardless of my personal situation. I have always put myself in challenging situations, whether at school, at work, trying to win the girl, etc. Maybe the core of the issue is no one in my family really cares too much about money. They’ve never lived without it so to them it seemingly grows on trees. For too long, I have just made making the money my problem. The family has all they need and most of what they want. For them, the money just appears with little thought as to how it got here. Maybe I should work less so I can do other things… perhaps I should be doing a lot less.

A couple people asked why I could join my wife and family on the Monday night activity. I get home pretty late. The activity last about 2 hours… by the time I get home, changed clothes and ate quickly there would be little time left to join them. If my wife were to stay home a couple of times a year, I would make it a point to take off early so we could enjoy the two hours together.

As for the person who asked if I could divorce now and not lose anything, I think the question is moot. I would lose something… my wife. However, if 10 or 15 years from now one of my children wants to marry, I will make sure they know all of the facts before doing so. Unless their soon to be spouse is as ambitious as they are, they need to tread carefully. All agreements have repercussions, be it the cell phone contract, the mortgage on your home, an employment agreement or an agreement to be bound by the changing marital laws of the state. This leads me to my next point … which I am many female posters on this board (and fathers with daughters) may disagree with.

I was reading the Wall Street Journal this weekend and came across a letter that someone had written about an earlier article. The article was about how women are deferring childbirth until much later now that they can ‘freeze their eggs’. Supposedly, women in their 50’s can now get pregnant with this method, allowing them to work and have a very successful career, then after they have done that, they can have children. This sounds like a solid use of scientific advancements to make the world better for everyone. The women who wrote the letter to the WSJ said that a better solution is to teach young boys the value of working and marrying. I couldn’t help but cringe.

On a similar thread, about two months ago, writer Jeffrey Zaslow wrote a piece about how his daughter’s boyfriend didn’t take his daughter to homecoming.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119387563623178398.html

At the end of the article, he asks that boys learn to be more ‘respectful’. When I finished reading the article, I felt that to him, respect means his daughter’s boyfriend acquiescing to his daughter’s needs and desires. I am sure that in a perfect would his view of the world would be ideal, but I will not be making such suggestions to my children.

I felt these two stories are relevant because many of the responses from the board fall on the side of my continuing to work… working in a less stressful environment, working part time, working from home, etc. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I think that feeling is strongest for divorced/single females in the group (as is their predictions of my wife wanting to divorce me). I feel it is almost as strong for males who themselves have supported a ‘loving wife,’ whom they have provided for while they work toward FIRE until their late 50’s. There aren’t many 30 somethings in this group and even fewer 20 somethings. I wish there were. I definitely feel a sexist bent on some of the recommendations. Someone mentioned that they learned a lot about social attitudes on this board from this thread, especially those directed at others who the writer referred to as ‘trapped’. I learned a lot too. Whether the trapped or sexist thing is true or not, I still appreciate all of the feedback which has given me a lot to chew on.

I laughed when I read the RV comment as selling our stuff and buying an RV is our plan. Forest River makes a beautiful three bedroom ‘fifth wheel’ RV that we were planning on buying and living in indefinitely. With recent advances in online schooling, this is quite feasible, but contrary to what many may believe, it is an extremely expensive. It is in the plans if I continue to work. Of course, the kids will need to be on board and I’m not sure my oldest will be ready to just hit the road in the middle of high school.

Someone surmised I had $1M… not quite there. The FIRE plan has only been in place for a few years, so it will be sometime (at least 5 years). Having a family of four, you don’t even need to run any numbers… it obviously isn’t enough unless we choose a life of destitution.

I do appreciate all the feedback. I originally came here looking to see if anyone has done anything about the fact that marital assets accrue to both parties no matter who does what. It sounds like the answer is no. The solution is simply to deal with that fact or work less… with the added notion that my job may be so poor that working less would have a lot more benefit than simply leveling the playing field a little bit.

I knew there were some smart people on these boards. Thank you again for your input.

 

[SecondCor521]

Maybe the core of the issue is no one in my family really cares too much about money.

Maybe the core of the issue is with you. Change what you can, accept what you cannot.

As for the person who asked if I could divorce now and not lose anything, I think the question is moot. I would lose something… my wife.

And your kids, most likely.

I originally came here looking to see if anyone has done anything about the fact that marital assets accrue to both parties no matter who does what. It sounds like the answer is no.

It depends on the state. If you're so damn foolish as to care more about the accrual of marital assets than the marriage itself, consider checking out all 50 states' laws. I think a few have laws that are more similar to what you think is fair. Then all you have to do is convince your wife and kids to move to one of those states without telling them the reason why.

2Cor521

 

[beowulf]

I don't believe I saw this mentioned, but a truly OCD person would not allow cat hair, junk, etc. to pile up on the rug or have dirt anywhere. Think more like "Monk." I am OCD - which means lining pens and pencils in a row, desk drawers that are really neat and constantly having to fight the urge to clean up everywhere I am. At home, we compromised, as my wife would probably never be able to keep clean to my standards - we hired a cleaning service. She has her own career, but that really isn't relevent - even if she cleaned full time it probably wouldn't be good enough for me. Is the cleaning service perfect - by no means - but the are a lot more thorough than we would be. And that's not even mentioning the other "interesting" characteristics of a really OCD person.

For divorces, think more like 70% going to her, to include any retirement accounts, future earnings, etc. There have been several articles recently showing how much the pendulum has swung and clearly the stay at home person gets a much better deal these days. For the working spouse, especially with children and when there is a lopsided income stream, it's totally devastating.

People in their 50's having kids? Happens a lot now, know some of them myself. We had kids in our early 20's - I can't even imagine trying to keep up with kids in your 60's, which you would be when they are teens. And what's the likelihood you will die or become incapactitated before they reach 20?? It's hard enough taking care of elderly parents when your own kids are grown. Think of someone in their 30's trying to raise a family having to also take care of 80+ year old parents. That's just plain selfish and and more money-grubbing talk. Somehow, it all seems to come back to the money. Contrary to popular belief, it really doesn't buy you happiness. It can buy a nice lifestyle, but that doesn't equate to true happiness.

I saw an orginal expression of love - if that's still strong, then the rest can be worked out. After 38 years of marriage, you realize that the rest is all minor if you really love each other.

 

[qbkatran]

I came to this forum to learn about FIRE and amazingly at threads like this I learn about life from incrediblly smart people. I read and re-read the reply in my situation and look at thing in different perpective... Thanks very much... Please keep up the good work. You're helping a widow to get stronger.

 

[Bestwifeever]

Still not sure this isn't a troll. However, if not, IMHO the OP is already psychologically divorced with his focus on "marital assets" and not "how could we improve our marriage." I wonder if he begrudges ballet classes or soccer team expenses?

So sad that he plans to tarnish his children's future marriages by telling them "they need to tread carefully" if their future spouses' ambitions don't match theirs (what if the future spouses are MORE ambitious? Will he talk to them instead of his children?). However, our children learn from us by example whether we want them to or not, and his children will learn that their father valued money over loving his family. They will either unwittingly copy him or go completely opposite.

Wow do I appreciate my DH....

My favorite from his latest post:

"A couple people asked why I could join my wife and family on the Monday night activity. I get home pretty late. The activity last about 2 hours… by the time I get home, changed clothes and ate quickly there would be little time left to join them. If my wife were to stay home a couple of times a year, I would make it a point to take off early so we could enjoy the two hours together."

So you couldn't get home early just to enjoy your kids' activity one night a week but you could get home early if your wife would forego volunteering for it. Like someone said earlier, what about Tuesday night? Wednesday night Here's a crazy idea--if you really wanted to, you could go straight from work and change clothes and stop and get a burger with them AFTER the event. Parents with all levels of jobs do that all the time.

 

[FinanceDude]

Still not sure this isn't a troll. However, if not, IMHO the OP is already psychologically divorced with his focus on "marital assets" and not "how could we improve our marriage." I wonder if he begrudges ballet classes or soccer team expenses?

The OP is ALREADY "divorced in his mind", he just hasn't filed yet.........

So sad that he plans to tarnish his children's future marriages by telling them "they need to tread carefully" if their future spouses' ambitions don't match theirs (what if the future spouses are MORE ambitious? Will he talk to them instead of his children?). However, our children learn from us by example whether we want them to or not, and his children will learn that their father valued money over loving his family. They will either unwittingly copy him or go completely opposite.

Yes, that was a hugely selfish statement. Seems like misery needs company..........

"A couple people asked why I could join my wife and family on the Monday night activity. I get home pretty late. The activity last about 2 hours… by the time I get home, changed clothes and ate quickly there would be little time left to join them. If my wife were to stay home a couple of times a year, I would make it a point to take off early so we could enjoy the two hours together."

I have spent so much time at my kid's events coming from work in a suit that other parents give me a hard time about it........and I take that as a compliment........

 

[HK1970]

I feel that I spend plenty of time with my children as a parent with a full time job and a long commute. I spend every single weekend doing something with the kids... either hiking, fishing, playing ball in the yard, swimming, etc. I was able rearrange my hours one day a week to coach a football team for the past three seasons. Rushing to get to the activity on Monday night isn't necessary in order to spend more time with the kids. The kids are there the other days of the week and as a working parent I think I spend an average amount of time with them... maybe even above average when you include things like coaching a football team. The point of my sharing the Monday issue with the group was to point out the difficulty of finding alone time with my wife... it could have been easy if we used a couple of those Mondays to take advantage of the built in babysitting.

I was simply suggesting that I wanted more than just the average amount of time that a workaday Dad spends with his kids. That the amount of time that a 'working parent' spends with their children isn't enough in my opinion, especially when both parents are capable of earning a decent income. I want to teach the kids how a man reasons and how to problem solve. I want to help with their homework and volunteer at their schools. As the husband of a professional women who has had the opportunity to stay home for 10 years to raise the children, I don't think the request is unduly burdensome or unreasonable.

Also, why isn't trying to arrange a date with my spouse on an occassional Monday when the kids are occupied considered 'working to improve the marriage?' That was the point of my asking if she could stay home on a couple of Mondays during the year... quiet time for us.

Lastly, I won't be having "tread lightly" conversations with my boys' potential spouses if they are more ambitious than my kids. Their fathers likely told them that already.

 

[Texas Proud]

I originally came here looking to see if anyone has done anything about the fact that marital assets accrue to both parties no matter who does what. It sounds like the answer is no. The solution is simply to deal with that fact or work less… with the added notion that my job may be so poor that working less would have a lot more benefit than simply leveling the playing field a little bit.

Others have said about your lack of concern for your kids Monday night...

And others have said you already are split or divorced in your mind... so no more from me...

BUT, to answer your last comment... (even though someone said about this also).... YOUR TO LATE...

The state takes a dim view of you being in a marriage and only one getting the fruits of that marriage.. if you had a prenup you could protect your assets prior to marriage easier... and you could even have an agreement that said how assets were to be divided during the marriage...

NOW, you want to go back and say KINGS X... our marriage is not what I hoped it would be so later on IF I decide to leave you, I want to be able to take all the money and leave you and the kids in the poor house... (yea, I might give you a bit, only if it does not interfere with my ER)... so go ask your wife to PLEASE sign this contract and let ME have all the power... and I can decide if we should stay together or not...

As someone that I work with would say "Good luck with that"....

 

[EarlyRetiree1978]

I didn’t really come here looking for marital advice, though I am glad that so many of you were willing to share. Caroline your message was a good one. I can tell you put some thought into it and I think you are right. My job would be lousy regardless of my personal situation. I have always put myself in challenging situations, whether at school, at work, trying to win the girl, etc. Maybe the core of the issue is no one in my family really cares too much about money. They’ve never lived without it so to them it seemingly grows on trees. For too long, I have just made making the money my problem. The family has all they need and most of what they want. For them, the money just appears with little thought as to how it got here. Maybe I should work less so I can do other things… perhaps I should be doing a lot less.

A couple people asked why I could join my wife and family on the Monday night activity. I get home pretty late. The activity last about 2 hours… by the time I get home, changed clothes and ate quickly there would be little time left to join them. If my wife were to stay home a couple of times a year, I would make it a point to take off early so we could enjoy the two hours together.

As for the person who asked if I could divorce now and not lose anything, I think the question is moot. I would lose something… my wife. However, if 10 or 15 years from now one of my children wants to marry, I will make sure they know all of the facts before doing so. Unless their soon to be spouse is as ambitious as they are, they need to tread carefully. All agreements have repercussions, be it the cell phone contract, the mortgage on your home, an employment agreement or an agreement to be bound by the changing marital laws of the state. This leads me to my next point … which I am many female posters on this board (and fathers with daughters) may disagree with.

I was reading the Wall Street Journal this weekend and came across a letter that someone had written about an earlier article. The article was about how women are deferring childbirth until much later now that they can ‘freeze their eggs’. Supposedly, women in their 50’s can now get pregnant with this method, allowing them to work and have a very successful career, then after they have done that, they can have children. This sounds like a solid use of scientific advancements to make the world better for everyone. The women who wrote the letter to the WSJ said that a better solution is to teach young boys the value of working and marrying. I couldn’t help but cringe.

On a similar thread, about two months ago, writer Jeffrey Zaslow wrote a piece about how his daughter’s boyfriend didn’t take his daughter to homecoming.

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB119387563623178398.html

At the end of the article, he asks that boys learn to be more ‘respectful’. When I finished reading the article, I felt that to him, respect means his daughter’s boyfriend acquiescing to his daughter’s needs and desires. I am sure that in a perfect would his view of the world would be ideal, but I will not be making such suggestions to my children.

I felt these two stories are relevant because many of the responses from the board fall on the side of my continuing to work… working in a less stressful environment, working part time, working from home, etc. I am going to go out on a limb here and say that I think that feeling is strongest for divorced/single females in the group (as is their predictions of my wife wanting to divorce me). I feel it is almost as strong for males who themselves have supported a ‘loving wife,’ whom they have provided for while they work toward FIRE until their late 50’s. There aren’t many 30 somethings in this group and even fewer 20 somethings. I wish there were. I definitely feel a sexist bent on some of the recommendations. Someone mentioned that they learned a lot about social attitudes on this board from this thread, especially those directed at others who the writer referred to as ‘trapped’. I learned a lot too. Whether the trapped or sexist thing is true or not, I still appreciate all of the feedback which has given me a lot to chew on.

I laughed when I read the RV comment as selling our stuff and buying an RV is our plan. Forest River makes a beautiful three bedroom ‘fifth wheel’ RV that we were planning on buying and living in indefinitely. With recent advances in online schooling, this is quite feasible, but contrary to what many may believe, it is an extremely expensive. It is in the plans if I continue to work. Of course, the kids will need to be on board and I’m not sure my oldest will be ready to just hit the road in the middle of high school.

Someone surmised I had $1M… not quite there. The FIRE plan has only been in place for a few years, so it will be sometime (at least 5 years). Having a family of four, you don’t even need to run any numbers… it obviously isn’t enough unless we choose a life of destitution.

I do appreciate all the feedback. I originally came here looking to see if anyone has done anything about the fact that marital assets accrue to both parties no matter who does what. It sounds like the answer is no. The solution is simply to deal with that fact or work less… with the added notion that my job may be so poor that working less would have a lot more benefit than simply leveling the playing field a little bit.

I knew there were some smart people on these boards. Thank you again for your input.

I’m sure what I will say will rub many on this board the wrong way but I'll post anyway cause it seems this board is heavily skewed in a sexist / one sided manor.

In your situation I feel you just have someone who doesn’t see eye to eye with you. Many people view marriage in different lights (sexual, religious, monetary, etc). I would say that each one is extremely important and it would be hard to stay with someone who was so disconnected with your beliefs of marriage as I see here.

My parents have been happily married for over 30 years and they see eye-to-eye on all the things posted above. I was told from my parents (BOTH) to find someone with my same interests because otherwise my life would be a living hell. I agree 100% after seeing so many friends relationship not even come close to how happy my parents are. They have MAYBE argued 10 times in my whole life (30 years). And to those who say they argue in private, I would say they obviously don’t know my parents.

There are SOO many people that get married only later to say , "If only I had thought this way before I got married". I also think that MOST of these posts that you’re getting HK1970 are from women only talking from 1 side. Caring for children does not mean not spending time with your husband. Its not an either or selection. I would like to hear HK1970's wife side of the story also.

 

[Texas Proud]

There are SOO many people that get married only later to say , "If only I had thought this way before I got married". I also think that MOST of these posts that you’re getting HK1970 are from women only talking from 1 side. Caring for children does not mean not spending time with your husband. Its not an either or selection. I would like to hear HK1970's wife side of the story also.

I don't see it as an either or answer.... there should be kid time and adult time... and taking the wife on a date is great... more people should do it. But, the OP talks out of both sides of his mouth... he wants more time with his wife, but does not want her to have any money if they divorce.. you take the whole package IMO.

SO, he either needs to have a heart to heart and say 'GET A JOB' or I am out of here... OR suck it up and live like he is now... but it does not seem like his wife is unreasonable as they save a huge amount of their money...

Nothing is perfect... we all make compromises... the question is can he make one and stay married... his hair brained suggestion is a non-starter... I don't know of a single woman who would give up her rights in a marriage... NONE, ZIP, ZILCH...

 

[GP0S3Y]

In order to minimize losses... I recommend the following:

1) Remove wife from financial picture

2) Move to another state that does not have permanent alimony and community property laws

3) Put assets in your name only. I think a trust can protect them from your wife. Or transfer assets to a third party (aka parent).

4) Tell her she needs to get a job or you will walk.

5) Once she gets a job... divorce, divorce, divorce!

Remember, the most valuable asset you have is future earnings. That is why you have to avoid paying alimony at all costs. If you can, try to get her formally diagnosed with a mental disorder. It will help your case when your case when you fight for your kids (you are, afterall, the better parent). And, before people start on this... If child custody was not already biased he would not have to resort to this to level the playing field. Blame the system.

Finally, his wife is not a good wife. She is not supporting him. She barely can even take care of the house which is something he could outsource for pennies. YES, they do have different goals. However, the only reason why the wife does not support his goals is because she has already retired. She does not give a damn about HIS retirement. Why would she? From the sounds of it she is just trying to leach until the kids are older and then she will rape him court with a divorce.

The way it is now he barely even gets real quality time with her so they might as well not even be married. As soon as he gets this leach off his back he will probably be able to spend more time with his kids too. They are becoming the age where a relationship with their father is very, very important. It is a win-win.

After the divorce, if you want, you can still live together and do the two parent thing raising the kid. Now though she will not have a claim to your assets.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I think several people suggested they go to counseling if he still loves his wife (either together or him alone) but that doesn't seem to be an option for OP for some reason. It would be valid to discuss with a counselor his feeling that they don't seem to share the same goals anymore and why or why not.

But we cannot know both sides of this story, so good luck. Probably better to get started on your new life sooner rather than later. Kudos for coaching the kids.

 

[Martha]

In order to minimize losses... I recommend the following:

1) Remove wife from financial picture

2) Move to another state that does not have permanent alimony and community property laws

3) Put assets in your name only. I think a trust can protect them from your wife. Or transfer assets to a third party (aka parent).

4) Tell her she needs to get a job or you will walk.

5) Once she gets a job... divorce, divorce, divorce!

Remember, the most valuable asset you have is future earnings. That is why you have to avoid paying alimony at all costs. If you can, try to get her formally diagnosed with a mental disorder. It will help your case when your case when you fight for your kids (you are, afterall, the better parent). And, before people start on this... If child custody was not already biased he would not have to resort to this to level the playing field. Blame the system.

Finally, his wife is not a good wife. She is not supporting him. She barely can even take care of the house which is something he could outsource for pennies. YES, they do have different goals. However, the only reason why the wife does not support his goals is because she has already retired. She does not give a damn about HIS retirement. Why would she? From the sounds of it she is just trying to leach until the kids are older and then she will rape him court with a divorce.

The way it is now he barely even gets real quality time with her so they might as well not even be married. As soon as he gets this leach off his back he will probably be able to spend more time with his kids too. They are becoming the age where a relationship with their father is very, very important. It is a win-win.

After the divorce, if you want, you can still live together and do the two parent thing raising the kid. Now though she will not have a claim to your assets.

Don't do this.

 

[RunningBum]

In order to minimize losses... I recommend the following:
...

I think we've found our troll.

 

[figner]

I do appreciate all the feedback. I originally came here looking to see if anyone has done anything about the fact that marital assets accrue to both parties no matter who does what. It sounds like the answer is no. The solution is simply to deal with that fact or work less… with the added notion that my job may be so poor that working less would have a lot more benefit than simply leveling the playing field a little bit.

I'm late to this party, but since you mentioned you were hoping for some responses from the 20 and 30-somethings...

I happen to think the way assets get split in many divorces is far from fair. And I've seen first-hand how among my circle of acquaintances, men seem to get the shaft more often in the post-divorce asset game. That said, I don't think it matters one whit for your situation, except as something to waste energy obsessing about. It's done: you're already married, and your legal-divorce-but-live-together fantasy sounds pretty unrealistic.

Here's an idea: presumably you and your wife got married because you cared about each other's happiness and wanted to share your lives together. If that's no longer the case, then go ahead and get both legally and emotionally divorced. If you want to stay together, ask her to help you. See if she can suggest ways for either of you to make changes that will improve your marriage and family. Ask her what she wants for you both (and then listen really really hard). If she cares about you, she doesn't want you to be miserable, but it also doesn't mean she agrees on what solutions are reasonable. It doesn't matter if she (or you) is right or wrong, it just matters that you can work with each other.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your posts I get the impression you wish you and your wife were more of a team. Yet I see you making some assumptions about what she wants, imagining out scenarios privately without sharing your thoughts with her. Get the dialog going! Counseling can help with this, but you can start by letting her into your head, instead of this board of strangers.