Alternative to Divorce?

[TromboneAl]

Sounds like things are improving. Glad to hear it.

Quote:

We invest all of our money in Treasuries or some other stable interest bearing investment.

Based on this statement, you need to start educating yourself about investing. Perhaps some books on tape for the commute.

[Martha]

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Originally Posted by HK1970 One last thought… Love and feelings aside, I still stand amazed that no one in these forums has found a way to mitigate the inherent risks that develop between a married couple when one spouse works and one doesn’t. The working spouse is essentially taking on all of the risk, especially for a man. The courts in my state appear ready and willing to give 1/2 of my past ER efforts to my spouse and a very large chunk of my future efforts through child support and alimony.

I have stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea what is best for you and your family. But let me at least give you the flavor of another point of view on the fairness issue. Both spouses take a risk when they decide one should work and the other raise the children. What if they decided to divorce after 10 years of marriage? The stay at home spouse has been out of the work force for 10 years. Tough to get back in and most certainly the job will not pay what it would have paid if the stay at home spouse had been working for 10 years. The working spouse at least has the security of a job. In most, if not all states, if the stay at home spouse gets maintenance it will be only for a brief period of time. Permanent maintenance is now the rare exception and most often marriages have to last at least 10 years for there to be even temporary maintenance. I would say giving up a career to raise kids is a significant risk, as significant as the risk the working spouse takes.

The division of assets? The assumption generally is for a 50-50 division. You were partners in marriage, the partnership breaks up and you each get half. No one is presumed to be more or less deserving. Probably best all in all. We used to have fault based divorce and the ugliness and cost in general outweighed any good. (Though I sure can think of a couple of examples where I would have liked to see fault taken into consideration--spouse and child abuse as an example, but I digress.)

The kids? Both spouses may very well struggle to raise the kids. The former stay at home parent, who likely will have custody as the primary care giver, will be looking for a job and having to plan how to have the kids cared for when they aren't at school or when they are ill. I had single parent employees struggle with this all the time, rarely if ever taking vacation time because time off was taken to care for kids. The noncustodial parent will have the pain of paying child care costs but with little control over how the money is spent.

Nobody wins. No one who is part of it feels that it is fair. It isn't fair, life is not the same after a divorce.

[RunningBum]

Sounds like a productive talk. I hope it works out well for you.

I commend you on taking a lot of tough suggestions here without ever losing it in your posts.

I personally disagree with your wife telling you not to get counselling. I guess some people think it puts a "crazy" tag on you or something, but that's not the case. I've used counselling to get through a rough patch in my life, it helped a lot, mostly to put things in perspective.

Regarding the whole "state involvement" thing, whether or not you got married you'd still be on the hook for child support. I don't believe that would change at all. I'd think you wouldn't be hit with alimony but I remember that Lee Marvin "palimony" case and I don't know if that has held up, and in which states.

[RetireeRobert]

[quote=HK1970;602202]. With all the talk on these boards about diversifying and risk/return relationships, I can’t believe this one isn’t really discussed. For married men out there in a position similar to mine (who are sole providers), it appears to me that the risk of loss from current family and marriage law trump all of the other ER risks combined (especially when ER is just about to start and assets and income are both high) and there seems to be no answer (suitcases of money and archipelagos aside). Had I realized this, I may have searched for a way to have a lifetime relationship with my spouse without involving the state. [/quote]


Glad you and DW are resolving the more time together issue. Maybe that alone will go a long way in changing attitudes and perspectives for both of you. It is a real compromise on the part of DW to your stated needs. Hold onto this thought.

DW's fear of your getting counselling, period, is troublesome, if you want to assess risks. I would suggest you still get counselling for yourself and be upfront with DW about it.

There seems to be a whole mismatch of attitudes about money, what women's roles "should be", and men's roles "should be" between you and DW. And perhaps in attitudes about "marriage counselling". You and DW need to let each other know what your attitudes are in each of these areas--money, women's roles, men's roles. A counsellor can help immeasureably in this process.

Still sounds like you remain obsessed with your "state-brokered" marriage interfering with your (not your wife's) ER plans. That is, you fear for your ER.

There is *FEAR* percolating on both sides here.

You can take a step forward by getting counselling yourself and being upfront with DW about it. Hold onto the fact DW HAS made a compromise, she has taken a step forward, on the more time together issue.

You and DW need to deal with the FEAR in your changing relationship.

Both of you step forward again and face the fear.

Maybe you two can get to the point where you will want to renew your marriage vows, in front of God, family, friends, and the whole world.

Good things take hard work. They aren't free.

Time to go to work. Good luck.

[Bestwifeever]

I don't think any counselor would be telling anyone that they should or shouldn't be working, staying at home, etc., etc.--they help you figure out what it is YOU really want. Either together or alone. She may have self-esteem issues about getting back in the job market that you are not aware of. She surely perceives that you are resentful of supporting her financially today and in the future 100 percent.

If work only equals money and has no other value, and there is enough money coming in from your efforts, then there is no carrot to spur your spouse back to the work force and give up homemaking. Along the lines of "fix what you can" and no matter how much you hate your current job, you could find and demonstrate that there is some value in it (the social aspect of being with coworkers, some level of professional satisfaction in using your skills/talents, whatever!). That would affect both your wife AND your children (who probably are sensing that daddy hates working--which could affect their ambition when it comes to their own careers). Actually you might even find your own happiness increased if you could do this.

Your spouse may return to her profession or another one when her current situation is no longer satisfying to her (when the children no longer need her as much, for example, or when there is not enough money to fund your family's lifestyle).

Good luck--

[toofrugalformycat]

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Originally Posted by HK1970 Well, I think we have come to a mutual agreement, at least temporarily..

Congratulations! You've taken a big step towards actual communication with your spouse. That must have been a scary conversation. You have guts.
Most important IMHO, you have taken responsibility as an adult for your own life choices. Caroline's post spelled it out best.
You're an inspiration to me.
And having seen the other side of divorce from a child's perspective, financially the male thrives (continued high income, rebuild assets easily), the female flounders (very hard to restart a career with a childrearing gap in there). So those laws are there for a reason.
But no one wins, and the kids lose the most.
If things get bad again, I agree with other posters, get thee to counseling.

[SecondCor521]

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Originally Posted by HK1970 One last thought… Love and feelings aside, I still stand amazed that no one in these forums has found a way to mitigate the inherent risks that develop between a married couple when one spouse works and one doesn’t. The working spouse is essentially taking on all of the risk, especially for a man. The courts in my state appear ready and willing to give 1/2 of my past ER efforts to my spouse and a very large chunk of my future efforts through child support and alimony. The court doesn’t care if 70% of my earnings were saved during the marriage. She would be entitled to a very large piece my future earnings as the state assumes that we both had earned the money and we both had been spending it like drunken sailors during our marriage. With all the talk on these boards about diversifying and risk/return relationships, I can’t believe this one isn’t really discussed. For married men out there in a position similar to mine (who are sole providers), it appears to me that the risk of loss from current family and marriage law trump all of the other ER risks combined (especially when ER is just about to start and assets and income are both high) and there seems to be no answer (suitcases of money and archipelagos aside). Had I realized this, I may have searched for a way to have a lifetime relationship with my spouse without involving the state. Maybe a prenup would have made some sense when we both got married right out of school. I may have never even put the plan into place had I realized this risk was here, but I started the plan a while ago and now I am only about 5 years away.

I agree with you that the "divorce risk" is a very real and large risk to ER. It's probably not discussed because I would wager that more than 90% of us (even FIRE types on this board) get married naively thinking it won't happen to us, or if it does happen it won't be that bad. The rest of us (not me) get prenups, call off the wedding, or find a like-minded spouse. Those are the only things I can think of that mitigate the risk directly. Other ideas include encouraging the wife back to work ASAP after kids are born (not my favorite), move to a state that has divorce laws you think are more fair, or...?

Oh, and let me tell you something about divorce courts. They care about three things, in the following order of priority:

1. The kids.
2. The kids.
3. The kids.

They don't care about you, or your wife, or your ER, or any of her plans, either. The will not care about what either of you two think is fair (unless you agree out of court). They will also care about following the law in your state, which in turn is considered de facto fair.

Oh, I'm glad you talked to your wife. Good job. Agree with the others about the counseling, though.

2Cor521

[bright eyed]

HK, I am very glad you started the dialogue with your wife. I know I have been hard on you - but sometimes I have found the best way to get into a stubborn man's head is being very direct, even if it stings.

You took a bold first step. Give her time to really let it sink in and figure it out too and make sure you LISTEN.

Her aversion to therapy is troublesome - given that is her training? Sounds like avoidance to me - "we've been good coasting/avoiding, why stir the water!" There may be much more under HER surface that you may not be prepared to here and she is obviously not prepared to share.

As others have mentioned - you are still stuck on the $ issue - If you replace your disdain for the divorce laws and put "kids" where you think of "wife" - you may think of it differently - You are essentially also saying - "if someone only told me how much kids cost, I would never have had them" because the kids right now, are attached to your spouse.

In the time it takes to find a counselor - try reading "Anger" by Thich Naht Hanh - might help you cool your flames.

[haha]

This is a board made up of control frieks, and OP is a guy with almost no control or at least no perceived control over his life.

Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why?

De-Nile would be my nomination.

Ha

[W2R]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha This is a board made up of control frieks, and OP is a guy with almost no control or at least no perceived control over his life. Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why? De-Nile would be my nomination. Ha

Seriously, you've got a valid point there! I worked hard to gain control over my life and destiny, and maybe part of the reason I bristle at his posts is that I just feel like he needs to make an effort to do the same. I do know that nobody can do it for him, at least not the harder parts. That starts with identifying and sorting out his goals and priorities.

[ChrisC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha This is a board made up of control frieks, and OP is a guy with almost no control or at least no perceived control over his life. Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why? De-Nile would be my nomination. Ha

No major sympathy from me because this is all within his control, so I guess I disagree with the basic premise you raise. Also, I think this is really a maturity issue, not an unfairness problem.

I've probably been through worse than the OP and I had a similar situation, with a long commute, a job I hated with tremendous stress and pressure, and a stay-at-home wife for 10 years. Sure, I felt that I was doing the heavy lifting financially in our house (and there was some resentment I harbored about that) but I looked at the roles we assigned to each other and felt content about that. It worked out best for us. I felt my wife was doing the most important job for us -- raising our children -- and undoubtedly she did a wonderful job. My children are all now happy and responsible adults.

Maybe people just need to vent on forums like this one. But I see him as blaming his wife and his job for things quite clearly under his control. I should be more understanding, but the OP's postings are almost like a whine (wah, wah) to me.

[RetireeRobert]

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Originally Posted by Want2retire I worked hard to gain control over my life and destiny, and maybe part of the reason I bristle at his posts is that I just feel like he needs to make an effort to do the same. I do know that nobody can do it for him, at least not the harder parts. That starts with identifying and sorting out his goals and priorities.

Exactly. To which I would only add -- and identifying and sorting out his DW's goals and priorities, and thier joint goals and priorities.

No lack of compassion at ER here. Rather, several honest attempts at help giving him some outside perspective. To enable him to move forward productively. I don't think he really wants just a non-productive pity party.

[Caroline]

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Yet there doesn't seem to be much compassion sent his way. Why?

Well, I HOPE I sent a little compassion his way... and I'd like to send a little more now that I see his wife refusing to go to counseling AND trying to control whether he goes or not.

That is not a helpful stance.

I think part of the compassion probelm involves the question of the working spouse taking all the "risk."

As a 50-year-old woman I know a LOT of other women, one generation ahead of me or in my age-range, who did not work outside the family but raised kids instead. Some of these women lost big when the divorce hit. Others stayed in very unhappy marriages because they couldn't / wouldn't get out, and lived with domineering husbands whose grip on the purse-strings gave them near total control.

My MIL was TOLD that she was moving from California to DC for 10 years, she was TOLD what house they were going to buy, she was TOLD she couldn't have a part-time job even when the kids were gone...

And my own mother was TOLD when my father was retiring -- no discussion, no debate.

So the OP's view is the EXACT opposite of mine, and apparently, many others. Many of us women deliberately stay IN the workforce to avoid putting our financial futures in our partner's hands.

[Spanky]

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As a 50-year-old woman I know a LOT of other women, one generation ahead of me or in my age-range, who did not work outside the family but raised kids instead. Some of these women lost big when the divorce hit.

That's true if her husband had little or no assets.

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Others stayed in very unhappy marriages because they couldn't / wouldn't get out, and lived with domineering husbands whose grip on the purse-strings gave them near total control.

That's too bad. It does not make any sense to stay just to have a roof over your head. If feasible, get an education and prepare to leave the relationship when the time is right.

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Many of us women deliberately stay IN the workforce to avoid putting our financial futures in our partner's hands.

Good idea -- I remind my daughters periodically to focus on their education and skills development so that they can be independent.

[HobbyDave]

A few quick things from a 30 year old point of view, even though it does sound like you have made some good progress.

I don't like working (obvious since I'm posting here) and neither does my wife. We both have equal earning abilities. My wife has contemplated and proposed in the past changing to anther career path which would pay less. I fully supported that idea.

She also has proposed being a stay at home housekeeper type person who "might write a book or something". To that I said hell no. I know we can't afford for both of us to semi retire now, so to be fair that option is not available to either. She understands, but if I condoned it, she would quit lickety split.

You are facing a common problem. I know stay at home moms in the family who were still stay at home "moms" when their kids graduated from college. Frankly I would just love to stay home and do errands and cook, etc, but that's not fair or in the cards for me.

Thankfully my wife completely understands the whole fairness thing and agrees , since she doesn't want me quitting either.

I think its all about communication. Its not wrong for her to enjoy time with the kids, and its not wrong for you to want the workload to be even. You two just need to communicate these feelings and we if you both can come up with an equal solution. Ie, she works for 3 years, you work for 3 years, and you both retire. Or she does all the housework so you can come home and put your feet up (my parents situation, though my mom also went back to work once we were all in school full time, she rocks

[haha]

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Originally Posted by HobbyDave Or she does all the housework so you can come home and put your feet up

There are men on this board who are home, with or wthout kids because they had the money to retire and wanted to, but their wives were not quite ready either financially or emotionally. It is sometimes not completely clear.

According to posts made here, these guys are expected to keep the brass polished, the floors and bathrooms clean, and nice hot meals on the table when Madame comes home. And fix cars, maintain the house, etc.

Ha

[clifp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by haha There are men on this board who are home, with or wthout kids because they had the money to retire and wanted to, but their wives were not quite ready either financially or emotionally. It is sometimes not completely clear. According to posts made here, these guys are expected to keep the brass polished, the floors and bathrooms clean, and nice hot meals on the table when Madame comes home. And fix cars, maintain the house, etc. Ha

Our 20 something tour guide in Shanghai, told us that in her city with big imbalance between men and woman this is the norm. A Shanghai man needs all the Cs, Condo, Cash, Car, Cook, Clean, and Cute.

[Spanky]

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There seems to be a whole mismatch of attitudes about money, what women's roles "should be", and men's roles "should be" between you and DW.

Agreed - clear expectations and understanding are important in any relationship. My DW (born in the Far East) still believes a man's role is to be the sole provider for the family. I am fine with that. It has not caused any conflict.

[Spanky]

Quote:

Maybe people just need to vent on forums like this one. But I see him as blaming his wife and his job for things quite clearly under his control. I should be more understanding, but the OP's postings are almost like a whine (wah, wah) to me.

Sometimes you just want to air your frustrations. A forum is great place to do that since you might receive some sympathy.

[Moemg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martha I have stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea what is best for you and your family. But let me at least give you the flavor of another point of view on the fairness issue. Both spouses take a risk when they decide one should work and the other raise the children. What if they decided to divorce after 10 years of marriage? The stay at home spouse has been out of the work force for 10 years. Tough to get back in and most certainly the job will not pay what it would have paid if the stay at home spouse had been working for 10 years. The working spouse at least has the security of a job. In most, if not all states, if the stay at home spouse gets maintenance it will be only for a brief period of time. Permanent maintenance is now the rare exception and most often marriages have to last at least 10 years for there to be even temporary maintenance. I would say giving up a career to raise kids is a significant risk, as significant as the risk the working spouse takes. The division of assets? The assumption generally is for a 50-50 division. You were partners in marriage, the partnership breaks up and you each get half. No one is presumed to be more or less deserving. Probably best all in all. We used to have fault based divorce and the ugliness and cost in general outweighed any good. (Though I sure can think of a couple of examples where I would have liked to see fault taken into consideration--spouse and child abuse as an example, but I digress.) The kids? Both spouses may very well struggle to raise the kids. The former stay at home parent, who likely will have custody as the primary care giver, will be looking for a job and having to plan how to have the kids cared for when they aren't at school or when they are ill. I had single parent employees struggle with this all the time, rarely if ever taking vacation time because time off was taken to care for kids. The noncustodial parent will have the pain of paying child care costs but with little control over how the money is spent. Nobody wins. No one who is part of it feels that it is fair. It isn't fair, life is not the same after a divorce.

Martha ,this is a great post and very accurate . I was a divorced single Mom in my 30's and nobody wins !