Alternative to the 4% rule

Well, I was close to 100% equities until about 1 year before retiring (very young), when I started to transition, so I never worried about what was the right AA during accumulation.

In terms of withdrawals - my straight % remaining portfolio withdrawal method results in me taking out large $$ amounts when the portfolio is high which appeals to me intuitively, since the higher portfolio is more likely to see a correction in the near future after several years of a runup.**

By dropping the withdrawal percent using a valuation based VPW, you are actually taking less $$ out when the portfolio is overvalued, leaving more in the portfolio to suffer a potential haircut. That runs against my philosophy of the past few years.

Looking at income changes during bad sequences, the real income from traditional VPW seems to drop almost as much as the models I have run using my %remaining portfolio method.

The main advantage I see of VPW is leaving less money at the end. I may do something like track it and perhaps transition over when it crosses my current withdrawal rate.

** This may sound pretty funny - to take out more $$ when you think your portfolio is overvalued. But that is what makes sense to me - take the full amount out when the getting is good, even if it well exceeds your spending! You don't know when your income might drop drastically.
 
Last edited:
Well, I was close to 100% equities until about 1 year before retiring (very young), when I started to transition, so I never worried about what was the right AA during accumulation.

In terms of withdrawals - my straight % remaining portfolio withdrawal method results in me taking out large $$ amounts when the portfolio is high which appeals to me intuitively, since the higher portfolio is more likely to see a correction in the near future after several years of a runup.

By dropping the withdrawal percent using a valuation based VPW, you are actually taking less $$ out when the portfolio is overvalued, leaving more in the portfolio to suffer a potential haircut. That runs against my philosophy so far.

Looking at income changes during bad sequences, the real income from traditional VPW seems to drop almost as much as the models I have run using my %remaining portfolio method.

The main advantage I see of VPW is leaving less money at the end.

I understand where you're coming from. It's also exactly why I won't use classic VPW and instead use one that is based on valuations. Either version of VPW leaves nothing in the end, that's true. But classic VPW tends to have withdrawals that too often increase way too rapidly towards the end of retirement withdrawing money that I would have had sooner, rather than later. And a valuation based method attached to PMT/VPW helps solve that.

The problem with comparing a fixed % withdrawal to something like VPW or a valuations based version of VPW is deciding what % to use for the fixed withdrawal since you can choose anything you want. And if you can choose anything you want, it starts to become an apples-to-oranges comparison as I can always find a % that compares favorably one way or another with a different withdrawal method, when testing past results. I know because I spent a long time playing around with that method a couple of years ago and I found that I could backtest based on my portfolio and choose my own criteria for success. For example, I could choose a very low % that was much lower than the average growth of my portfolio and I would see the withdrawals increasing over time. Or I could choose something too high and the withdrawals would steadily decrease over time as my withdrawals overran my returns, eventually dropping below what I could survive on. Or I could choose something that optimized for the worse start year in history for my portfolio (somewhere between 1966 and 1969) where it would start off high, then drop for a number of years, then recover. You could even try and look at quasi-apples-to-apples and choose the same starting percentage for the first year that is used for classic VPW for the first year. In that case, VPW will clearly win because the percentage withdrawn increases each year from year 1. So whether the real income drops as much between classic VPW and a fixed percentage withdrawal completely depends on the % actually chosen. And as always, I don't have a good way to know if the percentage I choose on day one will overrun or underrun my returns in the future and, unfortunately, I don't have so big a buffer that I could safely choose a super small percentage to all but guarantee success..


Everybody's needs and thought processes are different but I eventually walked away from that method, not because it left money on the table at the end, but rather in doing so, I had less to spend throughout my retirement. I learned about VPW and how it was basically a reinvention of something called "the actuarial method", often used by financial planners. But I really didn't like the withdrawal trajectories I was seeing, but about the same time several people over on BH started to bring up smoothing methods, especially valuation based methods. To me, it solved my major concerns: It didn't sacrifice early withdrawals for later ones and it regulated the year-on-year withdrawals, made sense intuitively, and had an absolute withdrawal that was based on a % of the portfolio which also means if my portfolio does well, so do my withdrawals.

I think of it this way: If I have $1M in my portfolio and I would normally take out 4% with VPW using long term returns, that would be a withdrawal of $40K, leaving $960K in the portfolio. If now there is a 20% drop in the market before my next withdrawal, I now have $768K before my next withdrawal.

If instead I'm using valuations which tell me that my withdrawal should be 3%, then I'm now withdrawing $30K, leaving $970K in the portfolio. If now there is a 20% drop in the market before my next withdrawal, I now have $776K before my next withdrawal.

In this simple example, I am going into my next withdrawal with more money in the portfolio by using valuations that adjust the withdrawal downward in anticipation of lower future returns, thus preserving the portfolio and possibly allowing for a higher withdrawal next time if the market recovers.

Now this is a simple example, but using valuations does the something similar. If valuations are low, you have no idea what sort of trajectory year on year your returns will take, but you do have an idea whether over, say, the next 5-10 years or so they might be low-ish, middle-ish, or high-ish and the withdrawal percentage is adjusted accordingly.

As an electrical engineer, I find using a valuation based version of VPW is very much like a feedback loop and why it tends to keep the withdrawals from running away extremely high or extremely low. And the thing I intuitively like about it is that extreme accuracy isn't required for a valuation in order to smooth out the withdrawals reasonably - at least historically and of course the future might not be like that, blah blah blah. :LOL:
 
Indirectly related to the most recent statements in this thread, if one uses a rising equity glide path and the first portion of retirement has good returns, then one moves into the latter portion of retirement with an ever increasing equity percentage and there are poor returns, can't that be a risky proposal?
I have read the Kitces and Pfau write ups.
 
Indirectly related to the most recent statements in this thread, if one uses a rising equity glide path and the first portion of retirement has good returns, then one moves into the latter portion of retirement with an ever increasing equity percentage and there are poor returns, can't that be a risky proposal?
I have read the Kitces and Pfau write ups.
The Kitces bond tent article only has the equity rising for a few years at the beginning of retirement not all the way through.
 
I think of it this way: If I have $1M in my portfolio and I would normally take out 4% with VPW using long term returns, that would be a withdrawal of $40K, leaving $960K in the portfolio. If now there is a 20% drop in the market before my next withdrawal, I now have $768K before my next withdrawal.

If instead I'm using valuations which tell me that my withdrawal should be 3%, then I'm now withdrawing $30K, leaving $970K in the portfolio. If now there is a 20% drop in the market before my next withdrawal, I now have $776K before my next withdrawal.

In this simple example, I am going into my next withdrawal with more money in the portfolio by using valuations that adjust the withdrawal downward in anticipation of lower future returns, thus preserving the portfolio and possibly allowing for a higher withdrawal next time if the market recovers.
Yeah - that's actually what I don't like.

I prefer to take the $40K out when thing are high, even if I might only spend $30K, and let the 20% drop happen to the remaining $960K. I now have the "extra" $10K out of the portfolio that didn't get hit by 20%. I have part of that $10K to help me weather the lower income the next year.
 
Last edited:
Yeah - that's actually what I don't like.

I prefer to take the $40K out when thing are high, even if I might only spend $30K, and let the 20% drop happen to the remaining $960K. I now have the "extra" $10K out of the portfolio that didn't get hit by 20%. I have part of that $10K to help me weather the lower income the next year.

Not sure what sort of effect that will have on the portfolio and future withdrawals long term, especially if there is a string of bad luck. Would need to backtest and see.

Intuitively it makes more sense to me to put aside extra whenever the withdrawal formula itself gives me a withdrawal that is more than I need. That can happen at any time, but is more likely to happen when valuations are low then when they are high (the withdrawal percentage is high) or at any time there are high returns in the portfolio (the portfolio itself grows).

This all reminds me of another withdrawal method I ran across a few years ago. Gummy's Sensible withdrawal method. Gummy is now a retired math professor out of Canada and hasn't posted anything in years. His blog was always filled with humor. The method can still be found here: sensible withdrawals

Basically start with an SWR, but this only works if you use a somewhat low SWR and if that SWR is enough for you to pay the basics you need. As an example, use 3%. Every year after a withdrawal is made, check the value of your portfolio, relative to inflation (real), relative to the previous year. If the value of the portfolio is higher than the previous year, even after having taken out the 3% (real) withdrawal, then withdraw, say, 25% of the extra amount in the portfolio. That's it. At the time I was looking at it, I liked it a lot because on average the "extra" withdrawals tended to happen in the earlier years of retirement when one is more likely to be more active. It also matches my intuition to withdraw extra for a rainy day when times are good and returns are high. But at the time, I didn't think in my situation that I could drop the initial rate low enough for it to be very helpful.

Cheers,
 
Not sure what sort of effect that will have on the portfolio and future withdrawals long term, especially if there is a string of bad luck. Would need to backtest and see.

Intuitively it makes more sense to me to put aside extra whenever the withdrawal formula itself gives me a withdrawal that is more than I need. That can happen at any time, but is more likely to happen when valuations are low then when they are high (the withdrawal percentage is high) or at any time there are high returns in the portfolio (the portfolio itself grows).

This all reminds me of another withdrawal method I ran across a few years ago. Gummy's Sensible withdrawal method. Gummy is now a retired math professor out of Canada and hasn't posted anything in years. His blog was always filled with humor. The method can still be found here: sensible withdrawals

Basically start with an SWR, but this only works if you use a somewhat low SWR and if that SWR is enough for you to pay the basics you need. As an example, use 3%. Every year after a withdrawal is made, check the value of your portfolio, relative to inflation (real), relative to the previous year. If the value of the portfolio is higher than the previous year, even after having taken out the 3% (real) withdrawal, then withdraw, say, 25% of the extra amount in the portfolio. That's it. At the time I was looking at it, I liked it a lot because on average the "extra" withdrawals tended to happen in the earlier years of retirement when one is more likely to be more active. It also matches my intuition to withdraw extra for a rainy day when times are good and returns are high. But at the time, I didn't think in my situation that I could drop the initial rate low enough for it to be very helpful.

Cheers,
My scenario as described is simply the %remaining portfolio method. I’ve run tons of scenarios with various withdrawal rates and understand it well. You have to deal with drops in income during rough times and decide how to manage variable income. I can actually increase my current withdrawal rate a good bit and still be fine. I would have a potentially larger % drop in income, but start out with several years of higher income up front which more than compensates up to a 4.35% withdrawal rate. Being aggressive with this method can favor the early years.
 
Last edited:
My scenario as described is simply the %remaining portfolio method. I’ve run tons of scenarios with various withdrawal rates and understand it well. You have to deal with drops in income during rough times and decide how to manage variable income. I can actually increase my current withdrawal rate a good bit and still be fine. I would have a potentially larger % drop in income, but start out with several years of higher income up front which more than compensates up to a 4.35% withdrawal rate. Thus being aggressive with this method favors the early years.

Understood. I spent quite a bit of time on that method (most methods, actually) several years ago. As I noted in my way too long post above :LOL: the choice of percentage along with the starting portfolio value is the main thing. I prefer methods that are variable for sure, I just found that one to be too variable for my taste. Classic VPW at least increases the withdrawal each year which, at least a little bit, counteracts inflation instead of relying 100% on the portfolio to do that. But I don't like the trajectories it takes in many years and would rather have something a bit smoother and, when summed across the entire retirement periods, has overall higher withdrawals.

By the way, something else to play with on classic VPW.
The defaults use the following.

5.00% for long term equity returns across the world
1.80% for long term bond returns across the world
For a 50/50 portfolio the rate ends up being 3.40% real.

In my spreadsheet I have other options.
A 50/50 portfolio of US stocks/bonds using historical US only data from 1927 to 2017 gives you 4.64%

A 50/50 portfolio using US stocks/bonds using historical US only data from 1950 to 2017 gives you 4.91%

Both of these numbers are going to increase the year 1 withdrawal rate significantly. It's another reason I don't like the defaults in the classic VPW spreadsheet: I think it's way too conservative, though not as much as another version of this method called "Arva" which uses TIPs rates as the expected returns.

Cheers
 
No problem. Glad to help.

By the way, you can improve your expected return on the stock side by adding some international if you choose. How much has been a debate going on at BH literally for years and will never be resolved. :LOL: Very roughly, the world market is about 50% US and 50% everybody and some choose to go that way. Others go lower on international. To each his/her own.

Anyway, if you go to the research associate website I noted earlier, and on the right hand side click on "charts" under Equities you can select CAPE. Using that, you get the following for current CAPE.

US Large is 31.6 so 1/31.6 is 3.2%
EAFE is 17.3 so 1/17.3 is 5.7%

Whether those expected returns or even the difference between those expected returns results in realized returns is anybody's guess, of course. But adding some international would increase the first year's VPW withdrawal using the 1/CAPE guesstimate method for future real returns.

Cheers.


Am I correct in thinking that the CAPE of EAFE doesn't necessarily share the same mean as the S&P CAPE? (This would make sense that the US would have a higher average CAPE than EM, as it has historically been a stronger/safer bet, people are willing to pay more to get into it) Meaning just because US Large CAPE is higher than EAFE, that doesn't necessarily mean you should flee US to EAFE? It's more about the current CAPE compared to it's historical level for the same index? If so do we have data on the historical level of the CAPE for EAFE or EM etc?

I'm making my way though this bogleheads post (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224374) but haven't seen that question posed yet.


For those of you who are doing CAPE weighted % of remaining portfolio, do any of you also combine this with a defined floor? This seems to be a good compromise of variability and surviveability. Even with the CAPE weighting the withdrawals on the low end can get very low. Numbers like a 5% withdrawals CAPE weighted with a 3% of starting portfolio defined floor seems to work well.
 
Understood. I spent quite a bit of time on that method (most methods, actually) several years ago. As I noted in my way too long post above :LOL: the choice of percentage along with the starting portfolio value is the main thing. I prefer methods that are variable for sure, I just found that one to be too variable for my taste. Classic VPW at least increases the withdrawal each year which, at least a little bit, counteracts inflation instead of relying 100% on the portfolio to do that. But I don't like the trajectories it takes in many years and would rather have something a bit smoother and, when summed across the entire retirement periods, has overall higher withdrawals.

Cheers
I just handle the income smoothing by not letting my spending ratchet up as fast as my income during the good years. Then when things drop, I’m not cutting my spending as fast either and if the drop continues over a few years I have left over money from the good years to help out.

I do this mostly add hoc, but I do have a specific cache set aside to help during a really bad sequence of returns if we ever run into such a scenario. Even though my portfolio income could drop as much as 60% in the most dire cases, I don’t expect to my spending cuts to have to exceed 30% pre-tax real. Chances are this cache will never be tapped [knock on wood], and can be used for something else in the elderly years. I have used the nasty pre-1920s historical data to model these worse than recent decades times.

And, as it turns out, in my mostly after tax portfolio case, taxes also pay a large part in smoothing after tax income. During strong market years, portfolio taxes are higher. After bad market crashes, my portfolio taxes can even go to zero like in 2008 and 2009. So after-tax income is not cut nearly as drastically.

I also determined when comparing withdrawal rates from 3% to 6%, that using the lowest withdrawal rates still didn’t help that much during the worst sequences, as the inflation and market hits to the portfolio dominate in these cases. You end up with about the same $$ income during the lower income year regardless of how high a withdrawal rate you started with up to 4.35%. You just end up with a slightly faster recovery and larger terminal portfolio in the lower withdrawal rate cases. The faster recovery might be nice - although it’s to a lower income, but the portfolio higher terminal value might not be a desirable trade off.

P.S. I am also a EE
 
Last edited:
Am I correct in thinking that the CAPE of EAFE doesn't necessarily share the same mean as the S&P CAPE? (This would make sense that the US would have a higher average CAPE than EM, as it has historically been a stronger/safer bet, people are willing to pay more to get into it) Meaning just because US Large CAPE is higher than EAFE, that doesn't necessarily mean you should flee US to EAFE? It's more about the current CAPE compared to it's historical level for the same index? If so do we have data on the historical level of the CAPE for EAFE or EM etc?

I'm making my way though this bogleheads post (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224374) but haven't seen that question posed yet.


For those of you who are doing CAPE weighted % of remaining portfolio, do any of you also combine this with a defined floor? This seems to be a good compromise of variability and surviveability. Even with the CAPE weighting the withdrawals on the low end can get very low. Numbers like a 5% withdrawals CAPE weighted with a 3% of starting portfolio defined floor seems to work well.

I've looked and I've found no historic CAPE data for anything other than the SP500 from Prof. Shiller. Some sites, like RA, have current CAPE for EAFE, however. I have no reason to believe it will be the same for between large cap US and large cap rest-of-world, but no data to prove it.

So what I do is I calculate the long term real returns of all of my components using the Simba spreadsheet over on Bogleheads. Then I find out what the long term premium real return is over and above the SP500. Then I add that premium to whatever I get for 1/CAPE for that component. Suppose I have an investment that has a long term real return that is 1% higher than the SP500. For that investment, I'll calculate a return of 1/CAPE (for the sp500) +1%. Or I might cut the premium slightly to be a little safer, maybe 0.5-0.75% instead. Not perfect, but it does seem to work OK.

For a floor, I'm mainly counting on SS + the worst case withdrawal I've seen in history to get me through. If that ever falls below what I need, I'll have no choice but to withdraw a little extra to get over the hump if I'm unable to tighten my belt any further.

Here's another hybrid method. It's not exactly a "floor", but more like a corridor and could be used with 1/CAPE. It's similar to Clyatt except that 1) it takes inflation into account and 2) creates both an upper and lower limit, though there's no reason you can't try just using a lower limit.

Recommended Smoothing Algorithm: [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Calculation #1: Multiply the Preliminary Spendable Amount by both 90% and 110% to develop a 10% corridor around the Preliminary Spendable Amount for the year. Calculation #2: Increase last year's Total Spendable Amount (the spending budget for the previous year) by the increase in CPI during the previous year and add any previously deferred annuity amount that commences in the current year. Note that it is the spending budget from the previous year that is used in this calculation and not the actual amount spent by the retiree. If the result of Calculation #2 falls inside the 10% corridor, the Total Spendable Amount for the year is equal to the result of Calculation #2. If the result of Calculation #2 falls outside the 10% corridor, the Total Spendable Amount for the year will equal the applicable corridor upper or lower limit. [/FONT][/FONT]

This is from: http://howmuchcaniaffordtospendinretirement.webs.com/Better_Systematic_Withdrawal_Strategy_03062014.pdf
 
Last edited:
I've looked and I've found no historic CAPE data for anything other than the SP500 from Prof. Shiller. Some sites, like RA, have current CAPE for EAFE, however. I have no reason to believe it will be the same for between large cap US and large cap rest-of-world, but no data to prove it.

So what I do is I calculate the long term real returns of all of my components using the Simba spreadsheet over on Bogleheads. Then I find out what the long term premium real return is over and above the SP500. Then I add that premium to whatever I get for 1/CAPE for that component. Suppose I have an investment that has a long term real return that is 1% higher than the SP500. For that investment, I'll calculate a return of 1/CAPE (for the sp500) +1%. Or I might cut the premium slightly to be a little safer, maybe 0.5-0.75% instead. Not perfect, but it does seem to work OK.

For a floor, I'm mainly counting on SS + the worst case withdrawal I've seen in history to get me through. If that ever falls below what I need, I'll have no choice but to withdraw a little extra to get over the hump if I'm unable to tighten my belt any further.

Here's another hybrid method. It's not exactly a "floor", but more like a corridor and could be used with 1/CAPE. It's similar to Clyatt except that 1) it takes inflation into account and 2) creates both an upper and lower limit, though there's no reason you can't try just using a lower limit.

Recommended Smoothing Algorithm: [FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]Calculation #1: Multiply the Preliminary Spendable Amount by both 90% and 110% to develop a 10% corridor around the Preliminary Spendable Amount for the year. Calculation #2: Increase last year's Total Spendable Amount (the spending budget for the previous year) by the increase in CPI during the previous year and add any previously deferred annuity amount that commences in the current year. Note that it is the spending budget from the previous year that is used in this calculation and not the actual amount spent by the retiree. If the result of Calculation #2 falls inside the 10% corridor, the Total Spendable Amount for the year is equal to the result of Calculation #2. If the result of Calculation #2 falls outside the 10% corridor, the Total Spendable Amount for the year will equal the applicable corridor upper or lower limit. [/FONT][/FONT]

This is from: http://howmuchcaniaffordtospendinre...r_Systematic_Withdrawal_Strategy_03062014.pdfhttp://howmuchcaniaffordtospendinre...r_Systematic_Withdrawal_Strategy_03062014.pdf

Also, unfortunately, deep history returns are tough to find. Note, the data below is from the Simba spreadsheet, but is only form 1970 onwards - not nearly enough data in my opinion. Some returns on the spreadsheet go back to the 1800's but not international.

Real returns from 1970-2017
SP500 fund: 6.07%
EAFE fund: 4.69%
Total Stock market: 6.11% (note how close it is to SP500. Makes since because something like total stock and SP500 have something like 80% commonality)
Total International: 4.71% (note how close it is to EAFE since the countries in EAFE have dominated over the rest of the Non-US world).

Long term, US has obviously dominated the returns. Will it persist? Who knows. It's another reason I like 1/CAPE: if it looks like other localities are undervalued, it will be reflected in the withdrawal %. And right now, the predictions, whether 1/CAPE or magic-formulas from the various research houses indicate higher returns offshore in the medium term future than onshore...

Cheers.
 
I just handle the income smoothing by not letting my spending ratchet up as fast as my income during the good years. Then when things drop, I’m not cutting my spending as fast either and if the drop continues over a few years I have left over money from the good years to help out.

I do this mostly add hoc, but I do have a specific cache set aside to help during a really bad sequence of returns if we ever run into such a scenario. Even though my portfolio income could drop as much as 60% in the most dire cases, I don’t expect to my spending cuts to have to exceed 30% pre-tax real. Chances are this cache will never be tapped [knock on wood], and can be used for something else in the elderly years. I have used the nasty pre-1920s historical data to model these worse than recent decades times.

And, as it turns out, in my mostly after tax portfolio case, taxes also pay a large part in smoothing after tax income. During strong market years, portfolio taxes are higher. After bad market crashes, my portfolio taxes can even go to zero like in 2008 and 2009. So after-tax income is not cut nearly as drastically.

I also determined when comparing withdrawal rates from 3% to 6%, that using the lowest withdrawal rates still didn’t help that much during the worst sequences, as the inflation and market hits to the portfolio dominate in these cases. You end up with about the same $$ income during the lower income year regardless of how high a withdrawal rate you started with up to 4.35%. You just end up with a slightly faster recovery and larger terminal portfolio in the lower withdrawal rate cases. The faster recovery might be nice - although it’s to a lower income, but the portfolio higher terminal value might not be a desirable trade off.

P.S. I am also a EE

An EE! I should have known based on your thought process. :clap:
What field? For me, it's semiconductor, specifically IC design (analog), though it's been management for sometime now. 34 years and hope to wind down soon.

As it hit me recently that using 1/CAPE with VPW is a feedback mechanism, I have a long term goal to see if I could turn this into a PID control loop that should smooth things over with a second order slightly damped response. Such a geek! :cool:
 
Am I correct in thinking that the CAPE of EAFE doesn't necessarily share the same mean as the S&P CAPE? (This would make sense that the US would have a higher average CAPE than EM, as it has historically been a stronger/safer bet, people are willing to pay more to get into it) Meaning just because US Large CAPE is higher than EAFE, that doesn't necessarily mean you should flee US to EAFE? It's more about the current CAPE compared to it's historical level for the same index? If so do we have data on the historical level of the CAPE for EAFE or EM etc?

I'm making my way though this bogleheads post (https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=224374) but haven't seen that question posed yet.


For those of you who are doing CAPE weighted % of remaining portfolio, do any of you also combine this with a defined floor? This seems to be a good compromise of variability and surviveability. Even with the CAPE weighting the withdrawals on the low end can get very low. Numbers like a 5% withdrawals CAPE weighted with a 3% of starting portfolio defined floor seems to work well.

I take that back. There is a limited CAPE series on the RA site I mentioned to you earlier. Again on the right hand side under charts, there is CAPE ratio as well as CAPE ratio time series. Click time series. The good news: there is CAPE available for EAFE and EM. The bad news. For EAFE, it only goes back to 1983 and for EM it only goes back to late 2005. But you can at least set up some short term backtests with and without using 1/CAPE and see what you get...
 
I take that back. There is a limited CAPE series on the RA site I mentioned to you earlier. Again on the right hand side under charts, there is CAPE ratio as well as CAPE ratio time series. Click time series. The good news: there is CAPE available for EAFE and EM. The bad news. For EAFE, it only goes back to 1983 and for EM it only goes back to late 2005. But you can at least set up some short term backtests with and without using 1/CAPE and see what you get...

There's a chart at the bottom of this website that goes back a little farther, but would need to be eyeballed. https://www.valuewalk.com/2018/01/global-pe10-rankings/
 
I've looked and I've found no historic CAPE data for anything other than the SP500 from Prof. Shiller. Some sites, like RA, have current CAPE for EAFE, however. I have no reason to believe it will be the same for between large cap US and large cap rest-of-world, but no data to prove it.

So what I do is I calculate the long term real returns of all of my components using the Simba spreadsheet over on Bogleheads. Then I find out what the long term premium real return is over and above the SP500. Then I add that premium to whatever I get for 1/CAPE for that component. Suppose I have an investment that has a long term real return that is 1% higher than the SP500. For that investment, I'll calculate a return of 1/CAPE (for the sp500) +1%. Or I might cut the premium slightly to be a little safer, maybe 0.5-0.75% instead. Not perfect, but it does seem to work OK.

I'm not sure I entirely understand your method but the big answer it seems to me is:

I've looked and I've found no historic CAPE data for anything other than the SP500

I feel like this basically makes the measure of CAPE for anything other than the S&P meaningless. What does a CAPE for the S&P even mean? is 30 a high or low number? We only know by comparing to the historical average and, arguing in favor of a reversion to the mean (a contested point), decide if it's high or low. With all the differences in risk, volatility, and demonstrated past performance, why would anyone pay the same price for expected earnings in EM as they would the US? I would expect them to be different. So if we don't have long-term CAPE records for these other markets/indecies what are we comparing to? When we see a number like a CAPE of 17 for EM what does that mean? Compared to what? It's near-meaningless (until at least a few business cycles go by), and I'd think certainly not directly comparable to the S&P CAPE.

Further, as I believe is the usual way of using CAPE to smooth withdrawals, we are doing math like 0.5*(1/CAPE) + 1. (I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are doing or not) Hidden in this formula is an understanding of the historical mean of the S&P CAPE. It just so happens that the historical median CAPE for the S&P is 16.16, so 1/CAPE (or CAEY) ~= 0.06, the +1 is what we use to adjust this to be in line with expected returns so we can withdrawal that same amount. If you were using a CAPE of a different index that had a different historical median, that adjustment would have to be something entirely different. Otherwise , if say the median CAPE of EM was only 10, and we used the normal equation, it would suggest we withdrawal 11% in an average CAPE year from an EM index. Instead you'd have to modify that equation, the +1 should be -3 or something like that (depending on whatever the historical earnings of that index/market is). You have to know what the long-term mean/median of that index's CAPE is, and the average return of that index in order to plug the right numbers into that equation.

My point is, the CAPE number is meaningful only in relation to it's historical average, and we use that historical average in our math of how to weight things.

It sounds to me like you are using long-term historical returns for that market to adjust the 1/CAPE, which I do think is necessary, but is not enough on its own, it's only part of the equation.

I guess I mean that literally. If I unpack that equation a bit it would look like this:

WR = weight*(1/CAPE) + (historicalAverageReturn - 1/(medianHistoricalCAPE))

We need both historicalAverageReturn and medianHistoricalCAPE for whatever index/market to get our number. In the default equation or calculators, those values are assumed based on S&P.

I like where your head is though, and I wish we had the data to properly weigh each market segment.
 
Last edited:
I take that back. There is a limited CAPE series on the RA site I mentioned to you earlier. Again on the right hand side under charts, there is CAPE ratio as well as CAPE ratio time series. Click time series. The good news: there is CAPE available for EAFE and EM. The bad news. For EAFE, it only goes back to 1983 and for EM it only goes back to late 2005. But you can at least set up some short term backtests with and without using 1/CAPE and see what you get...


Ahh, very cool. But I agree, 2005 is definitely not long enough to be meaningful, and 1983 probably not as well, though better.
 
I've heard some argue that instead of the historical median S&P CAPE we should use the median or mean of the past 30 years, as this helps deal with accounting changes and possibly long-term structural changes in the economy. If there is truth to that then I guess historical CAPE data for EAFE from 1983 may be sufficient. It has at least gone through a couple business cycles.
 
I'm not sure I entirely understand your method but the big answer it seems to me is:



I feel like this basically makes the measure of CAPE for anything other than the S&P meaningless. What does a CAPE for the S&P even mean? is 30 a high or low number? We only know by comparing to the historical average and, arguing in favor of a reversion to the mean (a contested point), decide if it's high or low. With all the differences in risk, volatility, and demonstrated past performance, why would anyone pay the same price for expected earnings in EM as they would the US? I would expect them to be different. So if we don't have long-term CAPE records for these other markets/indecies what are we comparing to? When we see a number like a CAPE of 17 for EM what does that mean? Compared to what? It's near-meaningless (until at least a few business cycles go by), and I'd think certainly not directly comparable to the S&P CAPE.

Further, as I believe is the usual way of using CAPE to smooth withdrawals, we are doing math like 0.5*(1/CAPE) + 1. (I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are doing or not) Hidden in this formula is an understanding of the historical mean of the S&P CAPE. It just so happens that the historical median CAPE for the S&P is 16.16, so 1/CAPE (or CAEY) ~= 0.06, the +1 is what we use to adjust this to be in line with expected returns so we can withdrawal that same amount. If you were using a CAPE of a different index that had a different historical median, that adjustment would have to be something entirely different. Otherwise , if say the median CAPE of EM was only 10, and we used the normal equation, it would suggest we withdrawal 11% in an average CAPE year from an EM index. Instead you'd have to modify that equation, the +1 should be -3 or something like that (depending on whatever the historical earnings of that index/market is). You have to know what the long-term mean/median of that index's CAPE is, and the average return of that index in order to plug the right numbers into that equation.

My point is, the CAPE number is meaningful only in relation to it's historical average, and we use that historical average in our math of how to weight things.

It sounds to me like you are using long-term historical returns for that market to adjust the 1/CAPE, which I do think is necessary, but is not enough on its own, it's only part of the equation.

I guess I mean that literally. If I unpack that equation a bit it would look like this:

WR = weight*(1/CAPE) + (historicalAverageReturn - 1/(medianHistoricalCAPE))

We need both historicalAverageReturn and medianHistoricalCAPE for whatever index/market to get our number. In the default equation or calculators, those values are assumed based on S&P.

I like where your head is though, and I wish we had the data to properly weigh each market segment.

In this context, no. This discussion centers around a PMT based method of withdrawals. VPW over on bogleheads is but one example. Arva is another one. With the Excel PMT function, you have to enter several parameters:
- Expected returns
- Remaining years in retirement
- then some misc parameters having to do with beginning or end of the year and whether you want to have $0 left at the end. We assume $0 at the end for this.

We know the second and third items above, but for a PMT based withdrawal to work, we need some answer for expected real returns. The author of VPW on bogleheads decided to use long term historical long-term worldwide returns for stocks and bonds based on data from Credit Suisse. If you're going to stick with fixed long term returns estimates and your portfolio is US-centric, you can use US only historical returns available in many places. Data is available for a start date in the 1800's onwards. With a PMT based method, any of those will work just fine, no question. The problem, however is that historically there are going to be some start years where this guess is much too high or much too low. The net result is that the withdrawals over time may drop too much or they may rise ridiculously high.

So, rather than just choose a fixed return, then why not use valuations instead to guess about mid term future returns and update it each year when calculating the withdrawal using PMT. Again, this doesn't need any large degree of accuracy. If my stocks are SP500 or even total stock market, I can choose something based on CAPE from Prof Shiller. Here I have a couple of choices. I can do a linear regression and develop a model which usually ends up with a natural log function and an offset. Not a big deal, but for some maybe too much. Might there be another model? As it turns out 1/CAPE is a decent, not perfect, approximation of future real returns for the SP500 (and by extension a total stock market return).

Here's a derivation of 1/CAPE:
https://docfinder.is.bnpparibas-ip.com/api/files/F0117225-21DE-4408-AFE2-1F07E654E5AE

I also know that one of the bogleheads members has also independently derived it as well, but I haven't been able to locate his derivation.
But here's another page from the boglehead blog which discusses 1/CAPE as well (towards the bottom)
https://finpage.blog/2018/02/28/cape-and-safe-withdrawal-rates/


Note that there is no need to know what the historical average is at all. So, it should be reasonable to assume that the math would be identical for any index anywhere whether it's EM, total international or Sweden by changing the inputs to the calculation for CAPE accordingly. So if you have a source for CAPE for any index, you can use it as well to calculate expected return of all of the equity contributions to your portfolio by simply weighting each of the 1/CAPE terms by the weight of each equity source.

Again, the beauty of something like a PMT based method that updates with future expected returns is that it is adaptable. It can never make the real withdrawals perfectly smooth because you're guessing returns over the next 5-10 years with some pretty big error bars and with an infinite number of possible trajectories. But the fact that it's being updated each year and the fact that your portfolio itself changes each year does indeed tend to smooth things out a good deal without greatly overestimating or underestimating future returns for long periods of time as could happen if you just chose a fixed expected return and stuck with it.

Now in some cases, CAPE data simply doesn't exist - or at least I don't have access to it. For example, I have small cap value in my portfolio and I have yet to find CAPE data for it. And there are so many indices that track small cap value I'd also have to find CAPE for the particular index my fund tracks. So, instead what I do is what I described above. I find the long term real premium that SCV has over the SP500. I then take a fraction of that based on some judgment and add it to the 1/CAPE from SP500 to make a guess at SCV's future returns. It's crude and we already know that SCV can both over and underperform very long periods of time. And whether the premium will persist is a question now that it has been "discovered". Yada yada. So I give it a little bit of a haircut and maybe chop its premium down by 50-70%. I wouldn't completely get rid of the premium - if I didn't believe there is one, then I wouldn't have added it to my portfolio in the first place.

Hope this makes some sense...
 
Last edited:
An EE! I should have known based on your thought process. :clap:
What field? For me, it's semiconductor, specifically IC design (analog), though it's been management for sometime now. 34 years and hope to wind down soon.

As it hit me recently that using 1/CAPE with VPW is a feedback mechanism, I have a long term goal to see if I could turn this into a PID control loop that should smooth things over with a second order slightly damped response. Such a geek! :cool:

A lot of training in semiconductors at the bachelor level, but ultimately digital and computer design with some analog to digital interfacing thrown in. And then also software. It’s been a long time though. My eyes bug out when I see the insides of the modern Apple devices.
 
As it turns out 1/CAPE is a decent, not perfect, approximation of future real returns for the SP500 (and by extension a total stock market return).




That's very interesting and was not my understanding of the CAPE. I don't think I understand the why of that fact, I'll have to put some thought into it and read those derivations you linked. Thanks for explaining/sharing.
 
All of this is great conversation but when it’s time to actually pull out of the portfolio is there a strategy for that. If I have 15 stocks, do I take 3-4% equally out of each individual holding? What if some were losers that year and others had a high dividend rate. Maybe I am overcomplicating this...
 
That's very interesting and was not my understanding of the CAPE. I don't think I understand the why of that fact, I'll have to put some thought into it and read those derivations you linked. Thanks for explaining/sharing.

No problem.

Just note that there are many methods to get potential future returns to use in conjunction with a PMT based withdrawal method.
1/CAPE is probably the easiest since CAPE is readily available.
As I noted, you can probably get a little more accuracy by doing a linear regression of CAPE. In my own backtesting, though, I really didn't see much difference between that and just using 1/CAPE
And as I posted earlier in the thread, many research houses have their capital returns expectations posted - Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a long term source of previous expectations to see if plugging it into a PMT based withdrawal would be any better. I personally doubt it given the error bars associated with any prediction like that.

And there are other mathematical methods that can be calculated or looked up including.
Tobin's Q
"greatest ever" from philosophical economics
Warren Buffet's percentage of total market cap (TMC) relative to the U.S. GNP

The possibilities are endless. I, for one want something somewhat simple and nearly autopilot. Looking up CAPE, current yield of my bond fund, and inflation expectations is about as easy as this could get.

What I don't advocate is using this information to set your AA - there's plenty enough research on that.
 
Last edited:
All of this is great conversation but when it’s time to actually pull out of the portfolio is there a strategy for that. If I have 15 stocks, do I take 3-4% equally out of each individual holding? What if some were losers that year and others had a high dividend rate. Maybe I am overcomplicating this...
That would be a different subject, please don't take this thread off-topic. I suggest you start your own thread on that, or find an existing about portfolio withdraws. I know there have been a few threads on this, but I'm not sure if there's one specific to owning individual stocks, so a new thread with your situation would be appropriate.
 
OK, I've discussed my thoughts on long term smoothing when using a PMT based method. I had mentioned earlier that sometimes people want to add short term smoothing as well. There are a few methods for that that can be applied to a PMT based withdrawal method.
1. Modify Clyatt to withdraw the % calculated by PMT or 95% of the previous year's withdrawal whichever is larger
2. Same as #1, but use 95% of the previous year's real withdrawal. When looking at inflation adjusted withdrawals instead of nominal withdrawals, this will provide additional smoothing.
(Note, there is nothing magic about 95%. You can backtest and play around with other numbers - I actually saw better results with higher percentages)
3. Finally, this is something suggested by one of the bogleheads. It bears some resemblance to Clyatt except that the calculation includes both last year's actual withdrawal and a first calculation of this year's withdrawal to calculate the actual withdrawal to be made this year.
a. Use a smoother coefficient. This is your choice. 75% is a decent choice, but you may want to play around with it.
a. Calculate the % withdrawal using the PMT formula as always
b. Multiply the % withdrawal by the amount in your porfolio to get a first calculation of what this year's withdrawal would be.
c. If the amount calculated in b above is greater than the previous year's nominal withdrawal, then this year's withdrawal is the previous year's withdrawal + the smoothing coefficient * ((the amount calculated in b) - last year's nominal withdrawal))d. Likewise, if the amount calculated in b above is less than the previous year's nominal withdrawal, then this year's withdrawal is the previous year's withdrawal - the smoothing coefficient * ((the previous year's nominal withdrawal - (the amount calculated in b))


Basically, this just let's your new withdrawal move only part of the way between whatever last year's withdrawal was and what this year's nominal calculation would be. Clyatt uses 95% of the previous year's withdrawal as the limiter. This instead let's the withdrawal move as much as 75% (or whatever % you choose) of the way between last year's withdrawal and the first calculation of what this withdrawal would be.

A modification of this would also be to do the same math but on real withdrawals and then back-calculate what the nominal withdrawal from your portfolio would be.


I've never looked at using this one on any other withdrawal method, but for those using a fixed % withdrawal, it might be interesting to compare it to Clyatt or other smoothing methods.


Cheers.
 
Back
Top Bottom