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AMCAP versus VG Total Stock Market Index
Old 09-23-2008, 12:28 AM   #1
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AMCAP versus VG Total Stock Market Index

From Vanguard's own comparison site:

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/Fun...5&FundId2=2387

Notice I didn't cherrypick this fund, it's the one you and Art have been wrasslin' over for some time.......

AMCAP isn't the best perfomer for American recently, but it has a solid long term track record.............
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Old 09-23-2008, 01:21 AM   #2
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Yep, those show total investment returns, and by those tables the TSM numbers are better for every time period except ten years. In the one year period, AMCAP has lost almost twice as much as the TSM. So much for that cash position and a firm hand on the funds wheel helping a customer do better during hard times.

However...those return figures dont seem to count cumulative reinvestment of dividends. With TSM's 2:1 advantage in this area thats an awful lot.

Oh hey, and the American fund also charges almost a quarter percent for a 12-1b fee on top of the .65% ER and 5.75% front end load. That 12-1b fee alone is more than the TSM charges for the whole ER.

How many more and different threads are we going to have about this?

You've also got a pretty interesting definition for wrasslin'. I figured when one guy is getting kicked repeatedly while laying on the ground, its something other than wrasslin'.
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by cute fuzzy bunny View Post
Yep, those show total investment returns, and by those tables the TSM numbers are better for every time period except ten years. In the one year period, AMCAP has lost almost twice as much as the TSM. So much for that cash position and a firm hand on the funds wheel helping a customer do better during hard times.
That's why one would have a mix of asset allocation.

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Oh hey, and the American fund also charges almost a quarter percent for a 12-1b fee on top of the .65% ER and 5.75% front end load. That 12-1b fee alone is more than the TSM charges for the whole ER.
One should expect very low fees in index funds, because the fund managers aren't really making any decisions, just buying the market......

Um, no.......the 12b-1 is included in the ER........ The SEC requires fund families to break out the amount seperately.

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How many more and different threads are we going to have about this?
I did a seperate one because the whole discussion was posted in a thread about SB wrap accounts.......as it appears noone else wants to weigh in, perhaps we should move on to more important things, like bacon.......

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You've also got a pretty interesting definition for wrasslin'. I figured when one guy is getting kicked repeatedly while laying on the ground, its something other than wrasslin'.
It's my Southern roots, got some backwoods Mississippi in me. Once, we were visiting some of my "kinfolk" in backwoods nowhere Mississippi. He had a HUGE pit bull that chased a racoon around the back yard, finally caught it and tore it to shreds. My cousin's comment? "Them pit bulls is sure good at wrasslin' coons".........
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Old 09-23-2008, 09:47 AM   #4
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That's why one would have a mix of asset allocation.
Then I dont know what we're talking about or when the shells are going to stop moving. I can make up a simple index AA that outperforms most actively managed funds most of the time, and it'll rarely be beaten by the same managed funds twice.

Quote:
One should expect very low fees in index funds, because the fund managers aren't really making any decisions, just buying the market......
You say that like its a bad thing!

Quote:
Um, no.......the 12b-1 is included in the ER........ The SEC requires fund families to break out the amount seperately.
The marketing fee is still higher than the indexes ER. Funny with all these highly compensated financial planners hawking the product, a nearly 6% front end load, they still have to charge a quarter percent to advertise the fund and pass those costs along to the fund share holders?!?

Oh my!

Quote:
as it appears noone else wants to weigh in, perhaps we should move on to more important things, like bacon.
I think no one else wants to weigh in because everybody has seen enough data to come to a conclusion. But bacon is good.

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"Them pit bulls is sure good at wrasslin' coons".........
You calling me a pit bull? You gonna try and put lipstick on me?
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:48 PM   #5
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More? In the grand universe of FAs, FD has got to be one of the toughest.

I haven't looked at what the most equivalent index AMCAP should be measured against. It's possible that it might even be a combination of different indexes since I recall comments that it includes growth and varying amounts of cash. Picking a broad index like the S&P or TSM may not be the best route. Maybe its 80% IWD and 20% cash?

This is where a recommended portfolio is handy. Scott Burns pushes 10 versions of Couch Potato Funds and DFA has a multitude of portfolios with various amounts of different asset classes. I found it interesting that as commodities started booming they created a commodity fund and back calculated how well their new recommended portfolios have done.
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:51 PM   #6
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This is where a recommended portfolio is handy. Scott Burns pushes 10 versions of Couch Potato Funds and DFA has a multitude of portfolios with various amounts of different asset classes. I found it interesting that as commodities started booming they created a commodity fund and back calculated how well their new recommended portfolios have done.
Yeah, he sold out, but folks still think he's an unbiased guru.........
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Old 09-23-2008, 01:12 PM   #7
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What the heck
Perhaps bunny is dyslexic. The chart you posted clearly showed that AMCAP (one of AF's worst performers) outperformed in the 10 year + area, which is what I thought Mutual fund people wanted, long term results??
In reality, the Vanguard just won out big for the last year to date and totally skewed the overall numbers. AMCAP may have won out over 6 years or perhaps at the 6 1/2 mark, but because Vanguard did so much better recently, it totally threw off the one and three year comparisons.
and btw, total return means just that.
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Old 09-23-2008, 03:18 PM   #8
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I like wrasslin! Especially that Rick Flair guy--I miss him! Woooooooooooooooooo
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Old 09-23-2008, 05:35 PM   #9
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Hey Art, dont you think its sort of pathetic to pick fights with me and then whine about getting beaten up to the moderators?

Pick one.

In the meanwhile, re-read post #2 where I explained the delta. These return numbers dont include reinvestment of dividends...the thing you picked at (incorrectly) in our last go-round.

Besides, arent these fancy actively managed mutual funds that hold lots of cash supposed to outperform a blunt index during times of turmoil...you know...the kind we've had lately? If these smart stock picking, market maneuvering, very expensive managers are all they say you are, then why are the indexes...ummm...wrasslin' the heck out of your front end load funds?
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Old 09-24-2008, 07:04 AM   #10
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Yeah, he sold out, but folks still think he's an unbiased guru.........
I'm actually impressed with how well he balances everything. He is very upfront about his involvement, never touts the firm in his column and continues to actively discuss his no-fee Couch Potato versions.

Unfortunately, FA's are probably the best option for those unwilling to learn to do this on their own and the very small percentage of us who have significantly complicated lives that require true help in managing their affairs. Of course, I'd limit acceptible FA's to fee only and those with substantial expertise. The commission based, firm oriented advisors need not apply in my opinion. I'll even admit annuities make sense for some people but very, very few -- less than 1% is my estimate.
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Old 09-24-2008, 10:15 AM   #11
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Hey Art, dont you think its sort of pathetic to pick fights with me and then whine about getting beaten up to the moderators?

Pick one.

In the meanwhile, re-read post #2 where I explained the delta. These return numbers dont include reinvestment of dividends...the thing you picked at (incorrectly) in our last go-round.

Besides, arent these fancy actively managed mutual funds that hold lots of cash supposed to outperform a blunt index during times of turmoil...you know...the kind we've had lately? If these smart stock picking, market maneuvering, very expensive managers are all they say you are, then why are the indexes...ummm...wrasslin' the heck out of your front end load funds?

Well first off, I hadn't heard nor seen anything from a mod stating they were being proactive on the matter. Also, I was responding to a different thread with further claims being made by you. If you can stick to the facts vs. furthering your personal vendetta, then I can do the same.
Now, as to the facts, you can't have it both ways, you can't tout long term results, then when the moment suits you, claim short term results are what matter. Would we love to see American Funds outperform in good times and bad, sure, however, this isn't always the case. AF owned a decent amount of FNM and AIG (both were supposed to be very conservative), and both went sour.
So, bottom line, they've gotten beat vs the index very recently, however, they do hold cash, so hopefully, when the time comes, they'll be able to buy near the bottom vs. having to hold certain stocks while they continue to tank. Consider the index fund that was forced to sell AIG at the bottom vs. at the very least being able to make an objective opinion as to their future.
Is there anything else in the world that you'd prefer to have a computer running without human interaction, besides your investments?
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Old 09-24-2008, 10:18 AM   #12
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I'm actually impressed with how well he balances everything. He is very upfront about his involvement, never touts the firm in his column and continues to actively discuss his no-fee Couch Potato versions.

Unfortunately, FA's are probably the best option for those unwilling to learn to do this on their own and the very small percentage of us who have significantly complicated lives that require true help in managing their affairs. Of course, I'd limit acceptible FA's to fee only and those with substantial expertise. The commission based, firm oriented advisors need not apply in my opinion. I'll even admit annuities make sense for some people but very, very few -- less than 1% is my estimate.

He has been squeezed out as the columnist working for the Dallas Morning News and instead must write as an independent, and he includes his website in his articles. I think he makes his new venture readily apparent.
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:27 AM   #13
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Just an FYI for Art and others who might be curious about how moderator actions work: we don't disclose any actions taken regarding individual posters, under any circumstances.
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:47 AM   #14
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Well then how can we tell when you're listening?
BTW, nice shoes.
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:48 AM   #15
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Oh, don't worry, we're always listening...heh heh heh
And if you think my shoes are nice, just take a gander at Martha's whip!
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:50 AM   #16
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Well then how can we tell when you're listening?
Big Brother is Watching You. Likewise, in the ER Forum we are always listening.

Edited to add: Oh, Sarah beat me to the punch!
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Old 09-24-2008, 11:59 AM   #17
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The moderators are sure deep into this thread.

These are two of my favorites even before they were moderators.
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:01 AM   #18
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The moderators are sure deep into this thread.

These are two of my favorites even before they were moderators.
Does that include me?
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:11 AM   #19
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Does that include me?
You wish you were as cool as W2R and me....
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:25 AM   #20
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The moderators are sure deep into this thread.

These are two of my favorites even before they were moderators.
Why, thank you!! The check is in the mail. You get a gold star for that comment.
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