Join Early Retirement Today
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-21-2010, 05:22 AM   #21
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
GregLee's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Waimanalo, HI
Posts: 1,881
Originally Posted by Ted_Shepherd_AKA_Chips View Post
Selling a particular dollar amount each month would undo the advantage I got in dollar cost averaging during the accumulation phase. That is, I used to invest the same amount of money each month, getting more or fewer shares depending on market action. Now, in the distribution phase, I choose instead to sell a fixed number of shares each month, ...
The Wikipedia discussion of dollar cost averaging ( claims that, since the market trends upwards, it's better, when you have a choice of whether to invest sooner or later, to invest in stocks sooner. Following the logic of that, when you have a choice of selling sooner or later, it should be better to sell later. So selling in an IRA to satisfy the IRS distribution requirement should be done at the end of the year.

Greg (retired in 2010 at age 68, state pension)
GregLee is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 11-21-2010, 06:31 AM   #22
gone traveling
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 3,855
Being conservative, DW/me keep 3-4 years in tax-deferred MM accounts, held within our respective IRA's. I've been retired since early '07 (DW will be next May), and in '07 & '08 I did the annual withdrawal bit at the beginning of the period.

However, in '09 I decided to switch to a monthly withdrawal scheme (in which I have federal tax directed to the government at the same time).

Is there any difference, from my POV? Not really. However, the monthly withdrawal supports my "anal nature" of budget (income/expense) changes. Since expenses do change over a 12-month period, I change my withdrawals (both up/down) to reflect actual expenses (did I mention that I'm a bit anal ?)

Also, being retired over three years, I also sell those areas that have shown significant gains to add to my "cash bucket", if I'm below my target (in a way, that's rebalancing). If my bucket is full but I'm still outside my target AA, I'll do the necessary movement between equity/bonds, as needed. When still in the accumulation stage I would only do re-allocation (re-balance) en masse once a year, and small moves via my annual contributions to my then 401(k) and IRA's. I've learned to harvest gains earlier, since I've learned a good lesson with the 2008 downturn. I don't wait for "good" to become "better" (and "better" to become "excellent"). In retirement, cash flow is the name of the game.

Just our way of doing it...

rescueme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 01:44 PM   #23
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,805
Originally Posted by SVHoper View Post
Hi Animorph,

Would you mind elaborating on this strategy? Is it a fixed dollar amount that needs to be exceeded? I am not at the withdrawal phase yet and just assumed I would have to increase my bonds in preparation for retirement, but it seems you decided to go with stocks/cash? Just hoping that you wouldn't mind sharing how you came to the no bonds decision.

This will be long, but I've never really described the whole thing before.

During 2007 - 2009 my main concern was putting more money into cheap equities, to the extent that I used home equity line of credit money to add to my equities at what turned out to be the bottom of the market. Some people on the forum here didn't even want to rebalance excess bond balances into equites to maintain their normal allocations during the same time period. So I don't think my strategy would work for too many here.

I dislike holding bonds and rebalancing to a fixed target because bonds (normally) don't return as much as stocks. For a 30 year retirement, that's a bunch of money sitting in bonds for 30 years. I don't want to do that. Same thing for cash of course. So I'm nominally 100% equities, though very diversified there.

I expect the value of my portfolio to increase in value over time, faster than inflation, even with my withdrawals. That means I'm pulling out a smaller percentage of my portfolio when I'm 100 than when I started, even assuming no other income. What could be safer than that? Why should I be all in bonds at age 100 if I only need to pull out 4% per year? When we die and the estate goes to the kids, does it make sense that that we were heavily in bonds for 10 to 30 years and then the kids inherit, who should move it back equities then?

But I still need to account for the swings of the market. I retired (DW is still working but could have retired with me) in 2007, with severence pay into 2008. Wanting to avoid the retirement horror story of the bear market at the start of retirement, and already concerned about the obvious housing problem and the less obvious consumer spending funded by a negative savings rate, I pulled out 3 years worth of cash to start. That was actually way more than 12% of the portfolio since I was paying for out of state college for one DS (and now the next DS) and of course covered that as well. No SS or pensions yet, but there will be. The idea was to spend the cash until it was gone and then to sell equities. That does not impact lifetime returns too much and provides significant early retirement safety (thankfully it worked). I'm about 7% off my portfolio peak value (including cash), with some moderate withdrawals.

From there, I projected portfolio values at the end of each year using simple average market gains as paart of my retirement plan. In those calcs I sell equities at the start of the year to cover expenses for the year, just to be conservative. What I want to do now is try to even out the market swings that are not part of the plan (though FIREcalc says I'm at a reasonable SWR also). So if my portfolio value ever exceeds the coming end of the year projected value, I sell equities to match the projected year-end value and essentially remove that cash from the portfolio. This might happen often during the year. It was a daily thing in the most recent upturn, if the market went up I sold since I was already at the desired end of year portfolio value. That keeps my plan on track, actually ahead of plan since the portfolio has hit the target value and I have extra cash that was not planned. That cash will be used for expenses, delaying the need to sell equities. So if the market is above "average" I'm pulling out cash.

If I run out of cash (some of 2009 and 2010 as a matter of fact) I sell equities as needed (any time of the year), and may try to avoid unnecessary expenses if the portfolio is particularly low. I tried to leave as much as I could in equities as the market bottomed and started to rise.

If I have medium or long-term cash available (> 1 year expenses) and we hit a bear market, I'll put that back into the market in chunks that are sized to run cash out (reserving the 1 year expenses) at my best estimate of the market bottom. So I was investing all the way down in 2008-2009 from -20% to -40% with existing cash and below that with HELOC funds, all roughly equal chunks at equal percentage steps. We delayed expenses, used up the reserved cash for living expenses while the market finally improved, and then finally had to begin selling equities. By that time stocks were well above the bottom and we had some nice gains already from the cash we had been investing as it went down. It never felt bad to sell at that point, even though we were still way down from the peak.

That just leaves a bear market with no excess cash to spend to contend with, one that does not happen after an over-exuberant market bull where I've pulled out lots of cash. In that case I'll just be taking a hit. If it occurs late in retirement I expect I'll already have increased spending (no bears), have more flexibility to cut spending, and have fewer years of retirement to fund (smaller portfolio is OK). Early on I'll still have some flexibility in spending during a long retirement and some hope of a quick market recovery instead of a permanent hit. That's the risk I take for running closer to the optimum median outcome instead of the optimum safest outcome.

Right now I've got about 1 year of cash pulled out, some of which I used to pay off the HELOC since that offered a better return than just holding cash. I expect to withdraw that money from the HELOC before selling equities again sometime in 2012 if things stay as is. If the market goes up more than about 2% or so I'll be selling equities again and raising more cash. I'll probably stop selling if my cash balance exceeds about 3 years, but keep topping-off to keep it at 3 years if the market is still over target.

So I'm trying to even out market swings while staying nominally 100% in equities. It's easy to tell when you should buy equities (in a bear market). I am using my average market gain projections to know when maybe the market is a little overvalued and I should sell. Barring those conditions, I'm just selling equities as needed to meet expenses.

I'm in cash because it is easy for short-term moves (no trading commissions or short-term redemption fees) and I don't expect to hold significant amounts for long periods. You could also use bond funds or ETF's. The key is that you're always spending it down to zero before selling equities. There is no permanent allocation to cash or bonds. Sort of a double bucket approach with a zero permanent allocation to the cash bucket. Probably sensitive to your average market gain assumption too.

That's it. It's strictly my own design, so there is no article that describes it and gives backtested or Monte Carlo results. I'll find out how it works in about 30 years. Subject to changes before then if I find something better.
Animorph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2010, 01:57 PM   #24
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 3,805
I've may have skimmed over some of the posts and missed this, but there is one important reason to sell at the beginning of the year that I didn't see mentioned.

If you are subject to the RMD, it is calculated on the value of your IRA/401k as of the end of the previous year. It that one case even I might be tempted to convert that RMD amount to cash, still within the account, as in a stable value fund if available. I heard many people took big hits in 2008 if they waited until the value of their IRA was way down before taking their RMD. The RMD is pretty much a short-term "expense" to an IRA account and needs to be carefully managed to avoid being forced to sell equities or even bonds at a bad time.

Animorph is offline   Reply With Quote

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Annual Withdrawal Spreadsheet TromboneAl FIRE and Money 0 01-27-2009 12:51 PM
2006 Annual Returns grumpy FIRE and Money 12 01-02-2007 10:13 AM
annual spending simple girl FIRECalc support 3 09-24-2006 05:02 PM
From my annual evaluation brewer12345 Young Dreamers 47 03-11-2005 01:21 PM
Why Is There An Annual Limit? Tommy_Dolitte FIRE and Money 11 07-25-2004 08:55 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:04 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.