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Old 10-22-2010, 07:21 AM   #21
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But, an irony I experienced was going to a Panda Express for some fast food Chinese food and none of the workers were Chinese. The workers there looked like they could have easily been flipping hamburgers at a hamburger joint.

But the food actually tasted "authentic" like what one would get at a Chinese take-out place. Go figure
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:06 AM   #22
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Hello, it's been awhile since i post anything. Here is a story that I found somewhat "shocking" how lazy we become as a nation.
Last story, Someone told me once "I support the Troops" bumper sticker is made in China.
I am going to tell my kids to take Chinese as a second language in school, just in case, we might be working for them in the future.
I think "lazy" would be not selling pumpkin seeds at all. Instead these people went out to find acceptable quality at the lowest price. Is it somehow more patriotic to pay 25% extra for real American pumpkin seeds? Do they taste better?

If we were outsourcing TOMAHAWK missile production to PRC then I'd be more concerned. But America has always lacked the natural resources to produce their "needed" products, and there's always been a trade solution.

I've never understood why a minority language, English, is expected to be spoken in so many countries. I would've picked Chinese* myself. I've read, though, that English is favored as an air-control language because flight crews can speak much more frankly without having to worry about respectful superior/subordinate forms of address and other time-sensitive obfuscations.

I think that American consumer products have already brought down the Soviets and the Japanese. It just takes a little more time to percolate through a country the size of the PRC... but percolate it will.

*Would that be Mandarin or Cantonese?
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:13 AM   #23
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But, an irony I experienced was going to a Panda Express for some fast food Chinese food and none of the workers were Chinese. The workers there looked like they could have easily been flipping hamburgers at a hamburger joint.

But the food actually tasted "authentic" like what one would get at a Chinese take-out place. Go figure
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Welcome to America!!
That food tasted "authentic" only because most Chinese food in the US is not authentic at all. (Thankfully, though, becoming more so). A lot of the chefs at Chinese restaurants nowadays are actually Hispanic. I've run across a few that spoke excellent Chinese considering they learned it entirely in the restaurants.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:22 AM   #24
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Call center jobs are starting to return to the U.S. as savings dwindled and customers complained about quality of service due to communication issues.

Outsourced Call Centers Return, To U.S. Homes : NPR
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:25 AM   #25
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China doesn't have a call-center industry. That would be India and the Philippines.


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Call center jobs are starting to return to the U.S. as savings dwindled and customers complained about quality of service due to communication issues.

Outsourced Call Centers Return, To U.S. Homes : NPR
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:32 AM   #26
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China doesn't have a call-center industry. That would be India and the Philippines.
True, I mainly posted that because someone earlier referenced call center jobs going overseas.

However, along the same lines, China's economy is growing quickly and employment costs are also rising quickly and our currency value is falling. These factors along with others will cause China to lose business to other countries and some of that business will return to the U.S. Capitalism and market forces have a way of balancing things out over time. They don't say patience is a virtue for nothing though.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:39 AM   #27
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What countries will China lose business to? Chinese wages are rising, but they are still vastly lower than the US, so I don't see how any of those jobs will return here. More likely, they are gone for good. Vietnam will get them, most likely--a lot of Chinese manufacturing jobs are already headed there. But the Chinese are investing heavily in Vietnam, and all throughout ASEAN (and Africa, for natural resources). Also, domestic demand within China will more than make up for the shavings of percentage points it will lose to tiny economies like Vietnam. China still has a LOT of room to grow.

My advice is to find a Chinese index fund and buy, buy, buy.


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True, I mainly posted that because someone earlier referenced call center jobs going overseas.

However, along the same lines, China's economy is growing quickly and employment costs are also rising quickly and our currency value is falling. These factors along with others will cause China to lose business to other countries and some of that business will return to the U.S. Capitalism and market forces have a way of balancing things out over time. They don't say patience is a virtue for nothing though.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:50 AM   #28
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Vietnam, as you mentioned, for one. Also, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Laos and maybe one day Pakistan if they ever get their act together. There will always be lower cost options that present themselves and capital will chase those options. I did say patience would be needed as it won't happen overnight.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:01 PM   #29
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I can't see China losing too much business to Thailand, or frankly, to any ASEAN country. In fact, in the Thai case, it will likely be the other way around, after the ASEAN-China Free Trade Agreement fully takes effect.

All Laos has is natural resources, and the Chinese are buying those up for a song. Laos could conceivably become a niche manufacturing zone, but realistically it is just too small to have much of an impact.

Cambodia has some promise though--but again, I think the future in SE Asia is Vietnam, at least for the next two decades.


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Vietnam, as you mentioned, for one. Also, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Laos and maybe one day Pakistan if they ever get their act together. There will always be lower cost options that present themselves and capital will chase those options. I did say patience would be needed as it won't happen overnight.
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Old 10-22-2010, 12:50 PM   #30
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When it gets down to it — talking trade balances here — once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here — once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel — once the Invisible Hand has taken away all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity — y'know what? There's only four things we do better than anyone else:
music
movies
microcode (software)
high-speed pizza delivery
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:14 PM   #31
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Neal Stephenson said is best in Snow Crash (1992)
Yeah, but I still want one of those damn skateboards...
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Old 10-22-2010, 02:48 PM   #32
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China is starting to have their "problems" also due to their thriving economy. Saw a documentary the other night about the trash problem in China. They are starting to consume so much more that the country is being overwhelmed by the trash and they are starting to "export" it. Also, saw that Donald Trump is calling for China to get their monetary system in order. Everything is so underpriced it's getting stupid. They aren't in the ballpark (or we aren't in theirs) when it comes to competing in price. He's angry and is talking about running for the presidency because of the China threat
to the economic collapse of our country.
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:49 PM   #33
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So? Panda Express is a fast-food chain, so all the dishes are prepared according to preset recipes. Once the cook gets the right ingredients and the right seasoning, it will taste "authentic". My daughter, when in high school, worked as a hostess at a local Chinese restaurant. The owner was Chinese, but all the cooks were Mexican.

I remember watching on FoodTV a show where Anthony Bourdain, a celebrity French cuisine chef, went back to visit the restaurant where he was head chef. In his place, they had promoted an immigrant Mexican who used to be his helper. This new chef had no formal training and learned to cook on the job. Anthony said the guy's cooking was just like any formally trained French chef.

Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
But, an irony I experienced was going to a Panda Express for some fast food Chinese food and none of the workers were Chinese. The workers there looked like they could have easily been flipping hamburgers at a hamburger joint.

But the food actually tasted "authentic" like what one would get at a Chinese take-out place. Go figure
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Originally Posted by stoutboy View Post
That food tasted "authentic" only because most Chinese food in the US is not authentic at all. (Thankfully, though, becoming more so). A lot of the chefs at Chinese restaurants nowadays are actually Hispanic. I've run across a few that spoke excellent Chinese considering they learned it entirely in the restaurants.
Yes. Talk about authentic, is one sure he can handle "authentic"?

I have been to many Chinatowns to have meals, like in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Honolulu, Sidney, Montreal, etc... I enjoyed the food, but was the food authentic? Yes, it should be as I ate it alongside the local ethnic Chinese, but I suspect that the food eaten by the Chinese living abroad is not quite the same as the "authentic" food eaten in mainland China, which I have not been to.

The above was not to denigrate Chinese cuisine. Not at all! Every country, or actually region, has some peculiar dishes that would not be enjoyed by "foreigners". I remember a show where Alton Brown (host of the Good Eats show on FoodTV) visited a town somewhere in the Midwest, and ate a fried cow brain sandwich. Now, I can handle that, if nobody reminds me of mad cow disease, but I am sure many of you here can't.

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China still has a LOT of room to grow...My advice is to find a Chinese index fund and buy, buy, buy.
Remembering that China is still not a free country (do they have any political party other than the Communist party?), I prefer to invest in companies and countries that sell to them.

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...(Donald Trump) is angry and is talking about running for the presidency because of the China threat to the economic collapse of our country.
My initial reaction was "OMG! President Trump!" But then, thinking about it, strange things have happened before. Every time the populace got frustrated, it wanted to try something different. And who knows what will work or will not?

I will keep investing in foreign companies and US companies that have foreign trade exposures. What else for a guy to do?
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:08 PM   #34
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I did a bicycle trip in China in '85 or '86 in the eastern part between Shanghai and Beijing. Also, I lived in HK. The food we eat here is nothing like what you get in China - except for the Dim Sum.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:51 PM   #35
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Along these same lines, we often eat 'edamame', which is a green (often in the pod) soybean. A friend of mine pointed out that they mostly come from China. We grow plenty of soybeans right here in IL and other parts of the US. Why do we import these from China? I really don't understand that.

When I was a kid, we sometimes got the dried soybeans from a neighbors farm - they are kinda nutty-popcorn like if you dry pan fry them just right.


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I am going to tell my kids to take Chinese as a second language in school, just in case, we might be working for them in the future.

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Old 10-22-2010, 08:06 PM   #36
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The food we eat here is nothing like what you get in China.
But which do you prefer?

My friends liked to go to P.F.Chang whenever we wanted Chinese food. I went along, but told them that it was not authentic. They said "True, but this is better". You just cannot argue about someone's personal taste.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:19 PM   #37
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But which do you prefer?

My friends liked to go to P.F.Chang whenever we wanted Chinese food. I went along, but told them that it was not authentic. They said "True, but this is better". You just cannot argue about someone's personal taste.
Agreed. Taste is personal. I would not go to P.F. Chang when there are so many authentic Chinese restaurants in my area.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:12 PM   #38
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Interesting post. If I have one quibble, it would be your comment that you would not invest in a Chinese index because China is not 'free' (btw, they do have other political parties); instead, you invest in foreign companies that sell to them.

In the first place, there are different ways of looking at freedom. In China, people do not enjoy substantial political freedom, true, but they do enjoy significant economic freedom. If I were a foreign investor in China, I would be more concerned about the latter.

Second, even if your argument is valid, you gain little by your method. The foreign companies you invest in are beholden to Chinese law when they establish a presence there to do business. If you invest in them, and their business takes a hit for whatever reason, you still are on the hook.

China is just too big too ignore. What other country of that size has enjoyed 8% or more growth for so many years (now at least 25 years)? And it still has room to grow--particularly its domestic economy. I think a Chinese index fund would just be a no-brainer. I've found some, but their ERs seem rather high. I hope Vanguard or Fidelity create one. We are really missing out.

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So? Panda Express is a fast-food chain, so all the dishes are prepared according to preset recipes. Once the cook gets the right ingredients and the right seasoning, it will taste "authentic". My daughter, when in high school, worked as a hostess at a local Chinese restaurant. The owner was Chinese, but all the cooks were Mexican.

I remember watching on FoodTV a show where Anthony Bourdain, a celebrity French cuisine chef, went back to visit the restaurant where he was head chef. In his place, they had promoted an immigrant Mexican who used to be his helper. This new chef had no formal training and learned to cook on the job. Anthony said the guy's cooking was just like any formally trained French chef.





Yes. Talk about authentic, is one sure he can handle "authentic"?

I have been to many Chinatowns to have meals, like in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Honolulu, Sidney, Montreal, etc... I enjoyed the food, but was the food authentic? Yes, it should be as I ate it alongside the local ethnic Chinese, but I suspect that the food eaten by the Chinese living abroad is not quite the same as the "authentic" food eaten in mainland China, which I have not been to.

The above was not to denigrate Chinese cuisine. Not at all! Every country, or actually region, has some peculiar dishes that would not be enjoyed by "foreigners". I remember a show where Alton Brown (host of the Good Eats show on FoodTV) visited a town somewhere in the Midwest, and ate a fried cow brain sandwich. Now, I can handle that, if nobody reminds me of mad cow disease, but I am sure many of you here can't.



Remembering that China is still not a free country (do they have any political party other than the Communist party?), I prefer to invest in companies and countries that sell to them.



My initial reaction was "OMG! President Trump!" But then, thinking about it, strange things have happened before. Every time the populace got frustrated, it wanted to try something different. And who knows what will work or will not?

I will keep investing in foreign companies and US companies that have foreign trade exposures. What else for a guy to do?
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:46 AM   #39
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China Herald: My friends, what do you want from us?

Calafia Beach Pundit: Pity the Chinese

IMO much of the Americans' (and the West in general) fears and apprehensions concerning the growing Chinese economic and political strength is due to good ole fashioned xenophobia.

I hope that the links above work - the first is a great poem written from the Chinese cultural perspective while the second is the thoughtful way to view the economic relationship between the USA and China. I suspect that this entire thread will be turned upside down after reading Grannis' article.
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Old 10-23-2010, 01:53 AM   #40
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Ha ha ha... Excellent poem! Thanks.

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What do you want from us?

When we were called “sick man of Asia”, we were called peril.
When we billed to be the next superpower, we’re called the threat

When we closed our doors, you smuggled drugs to open markets.
when we embrace free trade, you blame us for taking away your jobs.

when we’re falling apart, you marched in your troops and wanted your fair share.
when we’re putting the broken pieces together, “Free Tibet” you screamed! “it was invasion.”

So we tried communism, you hated us for being communist.
So we embraced capitalism, you hate us for being capitalist,

Then we have a billion people, you said we’re destroying the planet.
Then we limit our numbers, you said it was human rights abuses.

When we were poor, you think we’re dogs,
When we loan you cash, you blamed us for your debts.

When we build our industries, you called us polluters.
When we sell you goods, you blamed us for global warming,
When we buy oil, you called that exploitation and genocide.

When we were lost in chaos and rampage, you wanted rule s of laws for us.
When we uphold law and order against violence, you called that violation of human rights.

When we were silent, you said you want us to have free speech.
When we were silent no more, you say we were brainwashed.

Why do you hate us so much? We asked. “No”. You answered, “we don’t hate you”.
We don’t hate you either Bud, do you understand us?? “of course we do”, you said, “We have CNN, BBC, and CBC”.

But why, we still feel, your western people are not happy with us.

What do you really want from us??

My friend, What do you really want from us??
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