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Old 03-28-2008, 06:10 PM   #21
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As my retirement comes to fruition, I will be watching very carefully for laws enacted to try to take it away from me all in the name of "the common good".
It already started with the Federal Tax rebate program.
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Old 03-28-2008, 06:12 PM   #22
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Okay, I'm an LBYM'er, so I think other Americans don't save enough.

But, Where did these guys the the 150 million number??
They say that there are nearly 100 million Americans between 21 and 64 with full-time, year-round jobs. 51 million particiapate in employer sponsored retirement plans.
There are about 180 million Americans in this age range. So 80 million don't work full time - some have already retired, some are in school, some are stay-at-home parents (full or part time) while the spouse works. Why would we conclude that they won't be ready to retire just because they aren't contributing to 401k plans this year?

Of the 49 million full time workers, some save through IRAs or other pension plans, some just save. Some are just starting work and paying off debts is smarter than retirement savings.

I'd guess that their 150 million is overstated by a factor of 3, based on the data that they present.
You will not let us have a little fun will you?
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Old 03-28-2008, 06:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by armor99 View Post
As my retirement comes to fruition, I will be watching very carefully for laws enacted to try to take it away from me all in the name of "the common good".
You can always become an expat. I know I will seriously consider it if "they" start taking "it all away from me." New Zealand has always looked appealing to me...
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Old 03-28-2008, 06:23 PM   #24
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Aw, come on. All that Ha Ha and I are asking is another l5 years.

Playing tournament golf, and in Ha Ha's case, Salsa Dancing with 25 year olds aint cheap.

If you guys aren't up to it, I'll be forced to vote for a Democrat (first time ever), that will take care of us.
'Bama, 'Bama, he's our man, if he can't do it, nobody can!!!

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Old 03-28-2008, 07:01 PM   #25
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It really worries me that my son (21 yr old) and others of his generation will be taxed to death to pay for the one foot in the grave geezers that didn't plan - didn't save. Frankly, I wouldn't blame them if they revolt. Count us among others that don't want to use our savings to bail out the "Oh, have a heart...." crowd. I sound really harsh, but I'm sick of working for over 30 years now and pinching pennies and everytime you look up, someone is standing there with their hand out.
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Old 03-28-2008, 07:29 PM   #26
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This particular "American Dream" differs a little from the dream of past generations:
- It is paid for not by saving for years but by going into debt.
- It is far in excess of what previous generations expected. Huge televisions. Eating out almost every night. Going on foreign vacations frequently. The dream of previous generations was to pay off their house, retire without being a burden on anyone, and maybe help the kids get a better education than they had. No mention of a big screen TV or a Lexus.


So, lots of folks are having problems affording everything they want and also saving some money. Every generation has faced the same problem, it's not clear why government should be the answer at this point. Unfortunately, the reason the government might step in is that nearly 50% of people are now net "takers" of government largess. As soon as takers outnumber "takees," the system falls into a negative feedback loop (with ever-increasing demands from voters for more gimmees). Luckily, the system eventually re-establishes equilibrium --as soon as everyone is equally impoverished.

Before it is too late it would be highly advantageous to establish a system that gives more people a stake in reducing taxes. We're about to "progressivize" ourselves over a cliff.
Of course there are those that want everything, but many folks I know live simple lives, buy used cars and have a TV thats 25 years old. They still have a hard time saving, what with helping their kids through college and just trying to make ends meet. I have no pity for those that live beyond their means.
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Old 03-28-2008, 07:58 PM   #27
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An interesting paragraph that goes along with your thread...

In this country, there is a 3 generation money cycle.
1st generation makes money.
2nd generation maintains the capital.
3rd generation spends the money.

This also helps explain the cycles of growth and depressions.

1st generation has the memory of poverty, (Great Depression,
Immigration, a couple of World Wars), and works hard.

2nd generation has the spoken memory of poverty by living with their
parents. This generation has progressed financially in the work place
and they provide a better life for their children that they themselves had.

3rd generation does not have a memory of poverty and thinks they will
always have money, so they spend.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:05 PM   #28
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You will not let us have a little fun will you?
Independent saw the article for what it was -- another PR blitz by Fidelity; therefore, the proper conclusion must be that Independent needs to be stoned to death so that we can further stroke our egos in peace regardless of blatant bad math.
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:57 PM   #29
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'Bama, 'Bama, he's our man, if he can't do it, nobody can!!!

"El Salsero Viejo"

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Old 03-28-2008, 11:30 PM   #30
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If all these people decided to stop LBYM and to start saving then wouldn't our economy crash spectacularly from where it currently is? Wouldn't P/E ratios crash since they are based on future expected growth? Now that we've created such a personal debt bubble, spending is going to have to contract in a big way. This threatens our investments in a big way even thought it's harder to see. Not only could us savers have to pay more in taxes, but our nest eggs could be cut down by the crash in economic trajectory. Come to think about it... how can we avoid such a scenario? It almost seems inevitable as the baby boom population gets closer to an age when they won't have a choice but to cut back, and possibly even start saving at some level. I think this is the larger threat to us savers.
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:40 AM   #31
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I plan to retire overseas to my native country(Argentina), where I have already bought a home during Argentina's worst financial meltdowns in 2001. I have stopped considering myself as an American citizen, or Argentinian....rather I will blew with the financial winds. I have already started scouting other countries where I could live. So far I see myself living in three different countries(Argentina, USA, and Spain)when I retire. I think this worldwide approach will help stem off inflation, and now I may even be able to not have to support the grasshoppers. I, like all of you am a strict saver and find myself at a relatively young age(41) with a substantial nest egg and so now I have shifted most of my focus of gathering wealth to contaning what I so far have. So, this phase of "containment" has led me to have to look at a global type retirement. I know people who are currently living in this plan and doing it successfully. My mother who is now 71 is doing this also...she lives 6 months out of the year in Argentina and by doing this she able to "just" live off of her social security money. This is of course because of the exchange rate....1USD gets you 3.14 ARgentine pesos. The exchange rate in conjuction with the lower food, utilities, etc. costs over there makes it quite feesable to live off of her SS. I do understand that it is much easier to do if a person is actually from another country to return there, but I must say that since I started researching I have come across Americans living in Argentina. It's not easy, and it is not for everyone, but is is doable. Of course, I am just 41 and a lot can happen from now till I'm 55(that's my retirement goal date), so who knows. But I think that "MOST" of us can see that the next 20+ years are not looking so good here in the states, considering our national debt, medicare, SS, and this crazy spend, spend, spend phenomenon that has griped the average American. I don't think that the American consumer will start to save all of a sudden...they will come eventually to the realization...but they may have to be brought kicking and screaming. Boy, I'm glad I found this site....I hardly post, but I read your posts daily and I must say that this site is a wealth of information that I am so happy to be able to attain.
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Old 03-29-2008, 02:25 AM   #32
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I plan to retire overseas to my native country(Argentina),

Just to be a bit nickpicky...

But isn't Argentina south of here and 'connected' by land That would then not be 'overseas'....


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Old 03-29-2008, 03:01 AM   #33
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Many people did not prepare. Some could not afford to prepare, they did not have enough income (working poor).

This is but one reason that SS and Medicare are important.

We need to remember, we all paid into the system for SS and Medicare (plus your company paid into SS for you). It is not much, but if it combined with other publicly available resources, it will keep people from starving.

For those who had the money but did not prepare... they will suffer the consequences.

For those who prepare somewhat, SS and Medicare will help them to survive in retirement at a very minimum level.


Over 20 years ago a man at my church put on a little information seminar (his personal effort) for church members describing the retirement crisis (lack of pensions, etc) that would hit and the stress that would be on SS and Medicare. That was the beginning of my awareness of the problem. I recognized at that point that much of retirement would be my responsibility.
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Old 03-29-2008, 05:42 AM   #34
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If all these people decided to stop LBYM and to start saving then wouldn't our economy crash spectacularly from where it currently is? Wouldn't P/E ratios crash since they are based on future expected growth? ... Not only could us savers have to pay more in taxes, but our nest eggs could be cut down by the crash in economic trajectory. ... I think this is the larger threat to us savers.
Exactly!
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Old 03-29-2008, 07:19 AM   #35
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Just to be a bit nickpicky...

But isn't Argentina south of here and 'connected' by land That would then not be 'overseas'....


Sort of like Texas? ...

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Old 03-29-2008, 07:46 AM   #36
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........... For those who had the money but did not prepare... they will suffer the consequences. ........
I've hear this thought stated in other places, so not picking on you when I grabbed the quote chinaco,

My concerns with this idea that "the grasshoppers will just have to suffer" is that all those grasshoppers can vote & they will vote for politicians who are intellectually inclined toward social welfare programs & redistributions of wealth.

I'm lately beginning to think the best solution will be to step up legal immigration and get 50 to 100 million new legal immigrants (ants ) in the United States who are hungry to earn & create capital & wealth for themselves.
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Old 03-29-2008, 11:10 AM   #37
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The problem with increasing immigration is that we will have high unemployment as soon as the LBYM baby boomers stop spending. We will probably be thrown into deflation for at least a couple years. I saw a news report saying that the democratic presidential candidates visiting Toledo recently had to acknowledge the poor state of the economy in Ohio. Unemployment in Toldeo is around 6% right now. When FDR visited there in the 1930's he also had to acknowledge the poor state of the economy but unemployment was 80% then. We have built a society with a lot of entitlement issues where people don't take responsibility for their own circumstances.

Still, I see a minimalist social security program as a good idea because the quality of all of our lives will be diminished if we go back to the poor and destitute roaming the streets, which is what you can see in places like India. Also, when people have nothing to lose it is dangerous for everyone in society because there is no recourse for their actions and that can lead to unchecked destruction of property and life. The key will be to maintain discipline in a minimalist approach to SS and educating people that they need to not assume it is something more.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:02 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Nanita8140
I plan to retire overseas to my native country(Argentina),


Just to be a bit nickpicky...

But isn't Argentina south of here and 'connected' by land That would then not be 'overseas'....



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, technically, because of the Darien Gap and the fact that there is no road that connects Central America with South America through it, and vehicles must be loaded on ships and shipped to Colombia.....Argentina is technically overseas.

Lots of reasons why no road exists through this area....definitely a difficult roadbuilding situation, but the REAL reason (not often spoken of) is that Panama used to be part of Colombia and when the U.S. was eyeing land for the Panama Canal, we assisted the rebels trying to secede from Colombia to create the separate country of Panama, with which we could better negotiate the canal.

To this day, Colombia considers Panama part of Colombia, and Panamanians fear, perhaps rightly, that were there a road handy for Colombia to invade Panama easily, they might be in trouble.

So........due to the Darien Gap, the OPs comment about Argentina being overseas is really, in a very real sense, correct.

Although I remember being really incensed reading a Barbara Kingsolver book, and the protagonist's sister being "overseas" in Nicaragua. Sometimes even famous authors have trouble with geography.

LooseChickens

Darién Gap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanita8140
I plan to retire overseas to my native country(Argentina),


Just to be a bit nickpicky...

But isn't Argentina south of here and 'connected' by land That would then not be 'overseas'....



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, technically, because of the Darien Gap and the fact that there is no road that connects Central America with South America through it, and vehicles must be loaded on ships and shipped to Colombia.....Argentina is technically overseas.

Lots of reasons why no road exists through this area....definitely a difficult roadbuilding situation, but the REAL reason (not often spoken of) is that Panama used to be part of Colombia and when the U.S. was eyeing land for the Panama Canal, we assisted the rebels trying to secede from Colombia to create the separate country of Panama, with which we could better negotiate the canal.

To this day, Colombia considers Panama part of Colombia, and Panamanians fear, perhaps rightly, that were there a road handy for Colombia to invade Panama easily, they might be in trouble.

So........due to the Darien Gap, the OPs comment about Argentina being overseas is really, in a very real sense, correct.

Although I remember being really incensed reading a Barbara Kingsolver book, and the protagonist's sister being "overseas" in Nicaragua. Sometimes even famous authors have trouble with geography.

LooseChickens

Darién Gap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From your reference....

"The Darin Gap is a large swath of undeveloped swampland and forest separating Panama (Central America) and Colombia (South America)."

So would that not be 'overswamp'





Thanks for the info... you learn something all the time here...
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