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Old 09-18-2014, 02:11 PM   #441
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:21 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by HFWR View Post
Some who buy "luxury" goods are snobs. Some are "rich", and some are wannabes, or, as I like to call it, "$30000 millionaires". And, some on the other end of the scale blame "the man" or "the system" for their lack of success.

Rash generalizations are just that, rash, and general...

As for college, and the associated job market, indeed some college graduates should have been taken aside and told that their degree in basket weaving will not be worth the paper it's printed on.
Yes I see so many luxury cars on the road. Some have to be leases or just $700 car payments over 96 months. I think I just heard recently that the avg. car loan is about 7 years.

Yes picking the right degree is important these days. Sad to say you could throw in a english or History degree with that basket weaving. Unless you get a masters and teach. But wait you will need a Doctorates also. 100k later.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:39 PM   #443
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Yes but the problem is that a huge number of college grads are now underemployed and earn below a living wage.
Because most of the new jobs being created are low wage service jobs.

If somebody told you back in 1990 that college grads in 2014 on average will only be making 45k would you have been impressed?
In answer to "huge number of college grads are now underemployed": My link and the most recent studies done just within the last few months indicate that is just not so. Like the link to the data show: the VAST MAJORITY are fully employed within their intended majors. The unsubstantiated news bites that state otherwise is vastly overstated. Since you might not have taken trouble to read all that data, what it states is that the current college grad rae of under or un employment is only a few percentage points higher than the average of any age group, but that is a overall percentage of college grads FAR less than half. Not even close to more than 20%.
In answer to your question: "If somebody told you back in 1990 that college grads in 2014 on average will only be making 45k would you have been impressed?"

Ah yes I would. I was an engineering grad and in 1985 when I got my first job (that was also a time of mini recession if you recall) and it took me 9 months after graduating to get a job in my field after taking one that was not in my profession at first (It was a factory technician job at $8/hour which was actually pretty good for a 22 year old back then when HS grads at close to min wage made less than $3-4/hour). Back then after I landed an engineering job (just 6 years before your 1991 time period), I was making a whopping $22,000 salary, which by the way was far better than the average business student with a BA making $16,000 per year. Now I make six figures and did it with modest increase in salary. SO your $45 k figure back in 1991 was in fact a heck of a good salary for most of the country (unless you are living in a HIGH cost of living area like NYC).

For reference the average college grad now can expect about $45k year, but an engineering degree out of school now nets a starting salary of about $65,000 per year.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:41 PM   #444
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I see this myself, too, working in Silicon Valley. Many of our full-time employees, and also interns, are Indian. They're very highly educated, and while I'm not privy to their salaries, I suspect many of them are paid lower on average.

And they are willing to work longer hours. In fact, I have to catch myself at times from taking advantage of this. My plate is overflowing with projects, and I've pushed a few to one of my coworkers because he always seems to have time for them.

I now suspect it's not because his plate isn't already full, but rather he's working later hours, and possibly on weekends. I'm not sure if it's cultural, or whether he feels he has to "prove himself", or what. I might pull him aside one day and try to find out how many hours he's really putting in, if he's willing to talk about it. If he's putting in 50/60+ hours a week, then we need to talk to our manager about getting another req open for a FTE rather than taking advantage of somebody.
Yes its kind of ridiculous. Big lobbying money has been spent by the tech companies to keep this visa scam going. Many Americans aren't even aware of it.

I have a community of people from India who all live in big mcmansions right by my neighborhood.
Most are technology workers fresh off the plane. There must be 15 people in one of the houses.

They work like underpaid servants. Because sadly they are.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:42 PM   #445
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Yes I see so many luxury cars on the road. Some have to be leases or just $700 car payments over 96 months. I think I just heard recently that the avg. car loan is about 7 years.
I don't think it's quite that bad yet, but I have heard the average new car loan is something like 66 months.

I see plenty of luxury brands on the roads, but most of what they peddle these days are not what I'd really call luxury cars. The majority of BMWs, for example are the 3-series. I just did a quick Google search, and found leases starting around $339 per month. For comparison, 15 years ago I bought a new 2000 Dodge Intrepid that was $22,389 out the door. It was $2000 down and $347.66 per month, 60 months at 0.9%. About two years ago I bought a leftover 2012 Dodge Ram Hemi for $20,751 out the door. We used my uncle's dying '97 Silverado as a trade and got $1300 and I financed the $19,451 for 5 years at 3.99%, and the payment was around $359 per month.

I was just going to write a check for the truck, but if I financed through them they knocked another $500 off the price. Actually, let me re-phrase that, so I don't sound too one-percenty here. I was planning on writing a check from my HELOC, to pay for that truck! And what I ended up doing was taking their $500 extra incentive, and made a couple months of payments, and then used the HELOC to pay it off.

Anyway, back to BMW's...looks like a 5-series starts around $539 per month to lease. But if you want to really show off, you need a 7-series sedan, which starts at $909 a month, or go topless with a 6-series convertible, which starts around $1079 per month.

I'm sure better deals can be found. I just googled "BMW Lease" and looked at the first page that easily navigated to some figures.

BMWs and Benzes also don't tend to "age", for lack of a better word, like most cars. When a new style comes out, it doesn't seem to be a vast departure from the previous model, in style. And they tend to not be what I'd call "high style" or "flash in the pan", so in a few years they don't go out of style. Therefore, it's easy to go get a used one, and many of the uninformed will simply see that little blue spinning propeller or the snooty star badge and not realize that it might be a ten year old car.

But, in general, car styles don't change as often as they used to, so I guess the same would hold true for more plebian, everyday cars as well. A well-maintained 10 year old car doesn't look all that out of place compared to the current models.
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:38 PM   #446
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In answer to "huge number of college grads are now underemployed": My link and the most recent studies done just within the last few months indicate that is just not so. Like the link to the data show: the VAST MAJORITY are fully employed within their intended majors. The unsubstantiated news bites that state otherwise is vastly overstated. Since you might not have taken trouble to read all that data, what it states is that the current college grad rae of under or un employment is only a few percentage points higher than the average of any age group, but that is a overall percentage of college grads FAR less than half. Not even close to more than 20%.
In answer to your question: "If somebody told you back in 1990 that college grads in 2014 on average will only be making 45k would you have been impressed?"

Ah yes I would. I was an engineering grad and in 1985 when I got my first job (that was also a time of mini recession if you recall) and it took me 9 months after graduating to get a job in my field after taking one that was not in my profession at first (It was a factory technician job at $8/hour which was actually pretty good for a 22 year old back then when HS grads at close to min wage made less than $3-4/hour). Back then after I landed an engineering job (just 6 years before your 1991 time period), I was making a whopping $22,000 salary, which by the way was far better than the average business student with a BA making $16,000 per year. Now I make six figures and did it with modest increase in salary. SO your $45 k figure back in 1991 was in fact a heck of a good salary for most of the country (unless you are living in a HIGH cost of living area like NYC).

For reference the average college grad now can expect about $45k year, but an engineering degree out of school now nets a starting salary of about $65,000 per year.
Well yes as a engineer you are golden .

This whole discussion about wages started because somebody mentioned they do very well as a job hopper or job freelancer. Which I imagine many people can pull off and make big money with the right skills in demand.

But for many people in their 20s changing jobs often throughout their working careers is going to have a real negative effect on their wages and saving if they have long gaps in-between jobs. The millionaire next door couldn't afford to change jobs every 4 years at his or her pay level and just start over. So I don't know.

I remember in the 90s everybody I knew with a 4 year degree in anything was getting a job that paid pretty well.

This economy is just different. Corporate America is not investing in America in any major way. Its all about stock buybacks. No real job creation. No real wage increases.

This recovery from the recession is the first of 10 recoveries since WW2 that hasn't been led by construction. According to Alan Greenspan.

So I don't know. It just seems like many wrong college degree millennials are going to be stuck in low wage type jobs for a long time with big student loan debt.

These are people that are bad at math. Its not really funny though.

Imagine having 100k in student loan debt at age 25 making no real money in a very weak labor market.

That is some awkward debt.
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:50 PM   #447
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I don't think it's quite that bad yet, but I have heard the average new car loan is something like 66 months.

I see plenty of luxury brands on the roads, but most of what they peddle these days are not what I'd really call luxury cars. The majority of BMWs, for example are the 3-series. I just did a quick Google search, and found leases starting around $339 per month. For comparison, 15 years ago I bought a new 2000 Dodge Intrepid that was $22,389 out the door. It was $2000 down and $347.66 per month, 60 months at 0.9%. About two years ago I bought a leftover 2012 Dodge Ram Hemi for $20,751 out the door. We used my uncle's dying '97 Silverado as a trade and got $1300 and I financed the $19,451 for 5 years at 3.99%, and the payment was around $359 per month.

I was just going to write a check for the truck, but if I financed through them they knocked another $500 off the price. Actually, let me re-phrase that, so I don't sound too one-percenty here. I was planning on writing a check from my HELOC, to pay for that truck! And what I ended up doing was taking their $500 extra incentive, and made a couple months of payments, and then used the HELOC to pay it off.

Anyway, back to BMW's...looks like a 5-series starts around $539 per month to lease. But if you want to really show off, you need a 7-series sedan, which starts at $909 a month, or go topless with a 6-series convertible, which starts around $1079 per month.

I'm sure better deals can be found. I just googled "BMW Lease" and looked at the first page that easily navigated to some figures.

BMWs and Benzes also don't tend to "age", for lack of a better word, like most cars. When a new style comes out, it doesn't seem to be a vast departure from the previous model, in style. And they tend to not be what I'd call "high style" or "flash in the pan", so in a few years they don't go out of style. Therefore, it's easy to go get a used one, and many of the uninformed will simply see that little blue spinning propeller or the snooty star badge and not realize that it might be a ten year old car.

But, in general, car styles don't change as often as they used to, so I guess the same would hold true for more plebian, everyday cars as well. A well-maintained 10 year old car doesn't look all that out of place compared to the current models.
I saw a brand new beautiful white 5 series the other day on the highway.
Yes I see a lot of 3 series.

I love this M3.

Out of my price range for now. This would be fun to take to a track.

BMWs never go out of style.
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:59 PM   #448
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Yes its kind of ridiculous. Big lobbying money has been spent by the tech companies to keep this visa scam going. Many Americans aren't even aware of it.

I have a community of people from India who all live in big mcmansions right by my neighborhood.
Most are technology workers fresh off the plane. There must be 15 people in one of the houses.

They work like underpaid servants. Because sadly they are.
You are kidding yourself. Indian community in USA is one of the wealthiest and best educated population ....if not THE wealthiest.

Google for yourself. I will not be pointing you to numerous sources...
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Old 09-18-2014, 05:49 PM   #449
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You are kidding yourself. Indian community in USA is one of the wealthiest and best educated population ....if not THE wealthiest.

Google for yourself. I will not be pointing you to numerous sources...
This seems to back up your claim: List of ethnic groups in the United States by household income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 09-18-2014, 05:54 PM   #450
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You are kidding yourself. Indian community in USA is one of the wealthiest and best educated population ....if not THE wealthiest.

Google for yourself. I will not be pointing you to numerous sources...


The Indian tech guys that are here on temporary visas are the ones that purple is probably talking about. They make about half of what their US counterparts ( or those with H1s) make. Hi tech companies will outsource some of their work to companies like Wipro or HCL. Then Wipro/HCL will bring them in on temp visas to on site at the company who did the outsourcing. The upshot is that these young Indian guys are working side by side their coworkers making 1/2 as much. They're happy to do it as they would make much less in India.


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Old 09-18-2014, 06:02 PM   #451
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The Indian tech guys that are here on temporary visas are the ones that purple is probably talking about. They make about half of what their US counterparts ( or those with H1s) make. Hi tech companies will outsource some of their work to companies like Wipro or HCL. Then Wipro/HCL will bring them in on temp visas to on site at the company who did the outsourcing. The upshot is that these young Indian guys are working side by side their coworkers making 1/2 as much. They're happy to do it as they would make much less in India.


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I work all my life in high tech industry in Operating System design. You would be surprised what they make It is huge dollars...even interns will get way more then 60k.
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Old 09-18-2014, 06:03 PM   #452
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You are kidding yourself. Indian community in USA is one of the wealthiest and best educated population ....if not THE wealthiest.

Google for yourself. I will not be pointing you to numerous sources...
I know. My sister dated a doc from India for several years. His parents were both docs also and this guy had some cash obviously. He had no siblings so his parents bought him anything and everything. He had a boat and a small plane and 2 saabs. Nice guy but really spoiled.

He had a nice ski boat and we went water skiing all the time.

These are tech workers here on a work temp visa that I am talking about.
So they all stay in this house while on project assignments in the area.
Its a really nice neighborhood. The real estate agent for the builder told me that they wanted to buy a whole section of the neighborhood. For some reason the builder said it wasn't legal. I remember at the time it seemed strange.

There are many Indian docs and Indian IT in the area. They are very smart.

They save their money and are very frugal. I hope I didn't offend anyone on here.
I think part of the Indian culture is to have many family members living under one roof. I see families walking together all the time. The in- laws in tow
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Old 09-18-2014, 06:06 PM   #453
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I work all my life in high tech industry in Operating System design. You would be surprised what they make It is huge dollars...even interns will get way more then 60k.
They are also very involved in medicine. My last physical was performed by a young Indian doc. He was actually super cool.
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Old 09-18-2014, 06:06 PM   #454
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I work all my life in high tech industry in Operating System design. You would be surprised what they make It is huge dollars...even interns will get way more then 60k.

I work in hi tech too and saw this first hand, and found out what they made from the guys themselves.


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Old 09-18-2014, 06:13 PM   #455
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I think high tech companies do not care whom they hire. It is very very hard to find smart people. (especially college hires)

I don't know what they teach kids nowadays but for OS type of work you simply can nor find young people. So if you find some young kid you are lucky manager.
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:30 PM   #456
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No tangent too obscure for the awkward wealth thread. Maybe I'll share a recipe...
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:43 PM   #457
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No tangent too obscure for the awkward wealth thread. Maybe I'll share a recipe...
Well, you could. But you'd have to introduce it properly. Something like - "even though I have a Sutton Place apartment, here's how I cook collards . . ."
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:35 PM   #458
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Who would have thought this thread would go 458 posts?
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:49 PM   #459
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Who would have thought this thread would go 458 posts?
Yes, it is awkward.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:55 PM   #460
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Yes, it is awkward.
But it has got a wealth of posts.
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