Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-07-2014, 06:30 PM   #141
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
Is it really that expensive? I figured it might be $5-10 for a small tin or pouch (how is it even packaged?) at TJ's. Sure the good stuff that someone linked earlier is thousands. But fish eggs is fish eggs, and pregnant fish aren't too hard to find at spawning time.

I was at A's store and needed help, so asked her without really thinking about the implications (until the words rolled off my tongue).
I won't buy imported real caviar even if I wanted to splurge because the consumption of such is wiping out the sturgeon in their native rivers. I will not be party to that. Have not bothered trying the farmed domestic stuff, but might make the effort at some point.
__________________

__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 09-07-2014, 07:03 PM   #142
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaMan View Post
It is not a foible it is called having class.

I have known only a few people in my life that are truly blessed with the ability to enjoy being with people of any strata (political, economic, educational), and have those people equally enjoy being with them!

I have one good friend like this now. Much wealthier than me, he is at home and can have tactful discussions with both his right wing tea party friends as well as his left wing liberal friends, with silicon valley multimillionaires or out of work musicians, discussing quantum theory with physicists or bluegrass music at festivals.

Another one I knew was a physicist, world renown in his field, worked for him and had him over for dinner. Expected to chat about physics, instead he talked about romance novels with my wife!

It is never beneath you to be able to tailor your comments so they will make others comfortable, even when you think you are trying to "educate" them.

My father had this, I do not. But I am trying.
I can really relate to this.

My mostly ex job had me interacting with some very wealthy people as well as very high income types on a regular basis and my MFA has introduced my to a a lot of other post-grad students who (AFAIAW) have much more modest incomes. We've always had a diverse network of social contacts but these days it really does span the full economic spectrum.
__________________

__________________
Budgeting is a skill practised by people who are bad at politics.
traineeinvestor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 07:57 PM   #143
Full time employment: Posting here.
jjquantz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 848
Quote:
Originally Posted by traineeinvestor View Post
I can really relate to this.

My mostly ex job had me interacting with some very wealthy people as well as very high income types on a regular basis and my MFA has introduced my to a a lot of other post-grad students who (AFAIAW) have much more modest incomes. We've always had a diverse network of social contacts but these days it really does span the full economic spectrum.
This makes me think about the changes that have occurred since I moved from Iowa to the DC area. In Iowa, my regular golf group included: a couple of professors, a couple of high school teachers, a janitor, a CPA, a couple of contractors, a former principal, a plumber, and a couple of others that I can't remember their vocations. Now I play (irregularly) with lobbyists, congressional staffers, Government employees, former CIA staffers, campaign finance people, etc.

Very different groups of people, but I can converse with both. I really miss the old group, however. They were less uptight about the way they were viewed by others.
__________________
jjquantz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 08:44 PM   #144
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meadbh View Post
If we never see what can be achieved, how will we become motivated to achieve it? A little envy can be a good thing, assuming it is channeled into positive action, rather than resentment.
Thanks for saying that. I'm astounded at how popular it seems these days to denigrate the wealthy. Doesn't almost everyone, at some point in their life, want to be rich and/or famous, and doesn't that often provide some motivation to learn the skills it takes to get there?

Along the way, maybe the pure $ figure is replaced by some other valuable goal (learning to help others in some way), but usually doing these things well have some financial rewards. But I do agree, a little envy can be used positively.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaMan View Post
...
I have known only a few people in my life that are truly blessed with the ability to enjoy being with people of any strata (political, economic, educational), and have those people equally enjoy being with them!

I have one good friend like this now. Much wealthier than me, he is at home and can have tactful discussions with both his right wing tea party friends as well as his left wing liberal friends, with silicon valley multimillionaires or out of work musicians, discussing quantum theory with physicists or bluegrass music at festivals.

....

It is never beneath you to be able to tailor your comments so they will make others comfortable, even when you think you are trying to "educate" them.

My father had this, I do not. But I am trying.
I won't claim to be good at this, but I enjoy the challenge, and I do make an effort from time to time.

I've had some very good conversations and friendships with some people that are way outside my own social status or views or background. I enjoy different viewpoints and experiences. I think, as long as the person is 'genuine', I can mange to find something in common to talk about, or even compare differences (have to be careful here, to not offend). If they are 'phony' (regardless of social status), I will try to find better ways to spend my time.

I attended a wedding this w/e with DW and her extended family. Sat at the bar before the reception with some of the family that might have finished HS. They like to fish and hunt (not me), they are into sports (not me), they ordered lite beers and I got the craft beer. But we had plenty to talk about, shared some stories, had some laughs, and although our careers were very different, as they talked we could relate some common issues between all of them. They are good people, there's always something we can get together on.

Then another, very, very left-minded relative - but we have some over-lapping interests in music, so we focus on that, and family. Good times.

Dow 30 CEO, or a welder - I've managed to hold a conversation for an evening with both of them, and I think they both enjoyed it as much as I did (or one or the other was better at hiding their boredom?).

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 09:22 PM   #145
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,403
Looking around, one can always find things or attributes of others to be envious of, and it is more than wealth. There are people better looking than we are, more physically fit, taller, healthier, stronger, smarter, etc...

At some point in my life, and it was in my late teens as I recall, I stopped being envious of others, and became comfortable in my own skin. How else can we live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
Not all fish eggs are caviar....

Caviar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From the above link:

"Traditionally the term caviar refers only to roe from wild sturgeon in the Caspian and Black Sea (Beluga, Ossetra and Sevruga caviars)..."

Given that the world's annual production of caviar from farm raised sturgeon amounts to a few hundred tons a year, it is no surprise that sturgeon caviar goes for a few thousand dollars a pound. I have had caviar only once, and did not know of the quality or origin, but was certain that I did not like it, and have not tried again. I hasten to add that I like fish and even fish roe, but not caviar.

It is a good thing that I have a peasant's taste. Earlier today, I tried creton (a pork spread) for the first time, which I bought in a charcuterie in Montreal. Then, for dinner we just cooked and ate some Brome Lake duck breasts. I am going to pour myself a shot of Martell to top it off.

Life can be good even if you do not care for caviar.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 09:40 PM   #146
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 349
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliforniaMan View Post
It is not a foible it is called having class.

I have known only a few people in my life that are truly blessed with the ability to enjoy being with people of any strata (political, economic, educational), and have those people equally enjoy being with them!

I have one good friend like this now. Much wealthier than me, he is at home and can have tactful discussions with both his right wing tea party friends as well as his left wing liberal friends, with silicon valley multimillionaires or out of work musicians, discussing quantum theory with physicists or bluegrass music at festivals.

Another one I knew was a physicist, world renown in his field, worked for him and had him over for dinner. Expected to chat about physics, instead he talked about romance novels with my wife!

It is never beneath you to be able to tailor your comments so they will make others comfortable, even when you think you are trying to "educate" them.

My father had this, I do not. But I am trying.
Being well read, having the ability to converse and listen, and truly believing in the dignity of every human being helps. All of those are uncommon attributes.
__________________
aim-high is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2014, 10:02 PM   #147
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW-Bound View Post
Given that the world's annual production of caviar from farm raised sturgeon amounts to a few hundred tons a year, it is no surprise that sturgeon caviar goes for a few thousand dollars a pound. I have had caviar only once, and did not know of the quality or origin, but was certain that I did not like it, and have not tried again. I hasten to add that I like fish and even fish roe, but not caviar.

It is a good thing that I have a peasant's taste. Earlier today, I tried creton (a pork spread) for the first time, which I bought in a charcuterie in Montreal. Then, for dinner we just cooked and ate some Brome Lake duck breasts. I am going to pour myself a shot of Martell to top it off.

Life can be good even if you do not care for caviar.
Good caviar is excellent. Doesn't make it ethical to eat it, though.

As for plebian tastes, I spent the day in a cornfield chasing doves with a friend and his son. Dinner was simple and accompanied by homebrew. Now enjoying some Bourbon.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 07:47 AM   #148
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 2,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by dallas27 View Post
Envy is a foundation that ambition is often built upon. Its called envy when its bare and raw and not going anywhere.
I agree. I had a thorough grounding in morals by nuns when I was growing up and they said that envy was a sin if you wanted what someone else had so badly that you'd be willing to steal it, or if it made you resent them because they had what you wanted. I saw that form of envy in my Ex- his sister had founded a hugely successful business with her husband and after they got through the lean years they ended up with a net worth in 8 figures (last I heard), a floor-through in the same Manhattan prewar building where Mike Wallace used to live, and a home on the NJ shore in a town with private beaches. It just made him seethe. Why didn't HE have that? SIL and BIL (I still think of them as family) are the nicest, most down-to-earth people you'd ever meet. They came to DS' wedding in Des Moines in a church made from a converted basketball gym and I was so glad they were there. They circulated and met most of the bride's family, too.

I grew up with aspirations. I saw some things/experiences other people had and I wanted those things/experiences in my life, too. I made sure that I got the education and the career that allowed them, and spent less on other things (cars, furniture) than other people who made the same $$. Totally different attitude.
__________________
athena53 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 02:38 PM   #149
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Live And Learn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Tampa Bay Area
Posts: 1,689
Quote:
Originally Posted by SumDay View Post
We mentioned a nearby brunch in an upscale area, and when they asked how much it was, I replied with $20 per person, but worth every single penny. The look on their faces made me feel like a schmuck. I might as well have said $200 each. .
I don't know your networth vs mine, but you would have gotten the same look from me, so don't feel too bad (I guess).
__________________
"For the time being no discipline brings joy, but seems grievous and painful; but afterwards it yields a peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it." ~
Hebrews 12:11

ER'd in June 2015 at age 52. Initial WR 3%. 50/40/10 (Equity/Bond/Short Term) AA.
Live And Learn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 03:29 PM   #150
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Boise
Posts: 184
I am hoping to ER, but still working away. I have a good friend at work who has done very well and he apparently forgets that most of us make much less and do not receive any stock and he complains about the hold out period. I laugh (inside) as I will retire before he does. Bright, but clueless.

On the other side of the spectrum I have a friend outside of work who has struggled for the past few years and I always drive an older car to lunch instead of the newer one so that there is no chance that he would feel bad. I doubt that he would, but just in case.

I know that I think and talk about ER too much at work. I need to keep that to myself or maybe share/vent here to my anonymous friends.

One last share, apparently my DW wants to work two more years to see her DD thru law school. I was ready to call it good next spring, but may end up joining the OMY crowd or be a kept man.
__________________
jcretire77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 03:40 PM   #151
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
DW always forgets how much she paid for items. It gives a wrong perception to others that DW doesn't care about how much she spends which is further from the truth. Rather than let it pass, I usually interject "yeah, she is very forgetful on how much she paid for things." I suspect DW's forgetfulness & my explanation don't go very well with some people.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 04:18 PM   #152
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnplunder View Post
DW always forgets how much she paid for items. It gives a wrong perception to others that DW doesn't care about how much she spends which is further from the truth. Rather than let it pass, I usually interject "yeah, she is very forgetful on how much she paid for things." I suspect DW's forgetfulness & my explanation don't go very well with some people.
Why the focus on how much DW paid for an item? Unless you're helping someone out by sharing some general info on how much at item might cost or where you got an item for a competitive price, there's really no reason to discuss it. "See my new purse.... It was $400." Why?

If it's a case that friends always ask you how much you paid...... "I see you have a new purse. How much did you pay?"........ get some new friends.

Just my opinion.......
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 04:32 PM   #153
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Why the focus on how much DW paid for an item? Unless you're helping someone out by sharing some general info on how much at item might cost or where you got an item for a competitive price, there's really no reason to discuss it. "See my new purse.... It was $400." Why?

If it's a case that friends always ask you how much you paid...... "I see you have a new purse. How much did you pay?"........ get some new friends.

Just my opinion.......
Focus? Not so much.

In a normal course of conversation, how much did you pay for "it" comes up someimes, especially, among women. More if one is doing LBYM. It's more of a curiosity than anything, IMO, when persons asks about how much one paid for a set of coat hangers, etc..
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 04:40 PM   #154
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
youbet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 9,965
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnplunder View Post
Focus? Not so much.

In a normal course of conversation, how much did you pay for "it" comes up someimes, especially, among women. More if one is doing LBYM. It's more of a curiosity than anything, IMO, when persons asks about how much one paid for a set of coat hangers, etc..
Must be a regional or cultural thing. It's not so common here and with our circle of friends and relatives. The exception might be with commodity type items. If I know a friend drinks Jack Daniels and I just got a 1.5L for a bargain price, I'll mention it to him so he can benefit from the sale too. But, in general, asking or telling what an item cost isn't a common thing here, at least with us.
__________________
"I wasn't born blue blood. I was born blue-collar." John Wort Hannam
youbet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 04:59 PM   #155
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Amethyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,879
I've never lived anywhere, where people considered it polite to ask what you paid for something. They prefer to look it up for themselves, on the Internet! E.G., I have certain relatives who always know what everyone paid for their house.

Some less inhibited people can be nosey about "what did you pay?," but that's pretty easy to deal with. Nosey people know they're being impolite; they just like to see if you'll let them get away with it.

Amethyst

Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Must be a regional or cultural thing. It's not so common here and with our circle of friends and relatives. The exception might be with commodity type items. If I know a friend drinks Jack Daniels and I just got a 1.5L for a bargain price, I'll mention it to him so he can benefit from the sale too. But, in general, asking or telling what an item cost isn't a common thing here, at least with us.
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success to be able to spend your life in your own way. Christopher Morley.
Amethyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 05:07 PM   #156
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by youbet View Post
Must be a regional or cultural thing. It's not so common here and with our circle of friends and relatives. The exception might be with commodity type items. If I know a friend drinks Jack Daniels and I just got a 1.5L for a bargain price, I'll mention it to him so he can benefit from the sale too. But, in general, asking or telling what an item cost isn't a common thing here, at least with us.
Not really. I'd ask DW how much she paid for a pound of filet mignon from Costco, etc. She'd say "I don't know." Someone (we have visitors often) may over hear and get the wrong idea that she does not pay attention on where the money goes. Despite our humble abode (we do LBYM), some relatives suspect that we are FI. DW's answer can cement their suspicion and I feel awkward to lead others on that way even though it was not intentional.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 06:46 PM   #157
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
brewer12345's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 16,391
Quote:
Originally Posted by robnplunder View Post
Not really. I'd ask DW how much she paid for a pound of filet mignon from Costco, etc. She'd say "I don't know." Someone (we have visitors often) may over hear and get the wrong idea that she does not pay attention on where the money goes. Despite our humble abode (we do LBYM), some relatives suspect that we are FI. DW's answer can cement their suspicion and I feel awkward to lead others on that way even though it was not intentional.
Ask her what she paid for the Funyuns or the boxwine when you have visitors and this problem will go away very quickly.
__________________
"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."



- Will Rogers
brewer12345 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 07:00 PM   #158
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
robnplunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 2,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by brewer12345 View Post
Ask her what she paid for the Funyuns or the boxwine when you have visitors and this problem will go away very quickly.
That will work. I will even throw in a question about how she could pay so much for a pack of Ramen.
__________________
Pura Vida
robnplunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 07:01 PM   #159
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by aja8888 View Post
Not all fish eggs are caviar....

Caviar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It's all the same to me! I'll take the salmon eggs if it's a tiny fraction of the real thing (sturgeon eggs). I honestly knew nothing about caviar until I read that wiki article.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2014, 07:20 PM   #160
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,526
Quote:
Originally Posted by MooreBonds View Post
If anything, that could possibly make it sound even more insulting, since I'm willing to bet that most people over the age of, say, 25 probably know what caviar is, including those working in a grocery store (whether they know where it is kept, may be another story). But you clearly were aware of the nature and possible interpretation of your question, and the potential perception it would have, such that you went out of your way to phrase the question in a certain way to appear to not be snobby (while possibly coming across as even more snobby, implying that someone might be so underclassed as to not even know what caviar even is - even if you didn't want to appear that way). So you clearly were fully aware of the possible perception of what you were asking.
Well, I wasn't really sure whether DW wanted fish eggs or caviar. And I wasn't really sure what the difference was. Guess I'm the underclassed one! My acquaintance A might actually have known the difference. (I know the difference know after reading the wiki linked here). I was going to check out the prices for whatever fish egg or fish egg related products they had and make a choice based on what was on offer.

I'll also add that this was early in the morning, I hadn't had any coffee (except a small cup of free TJ coffee a minute earlier), I was in a hurry with other groceries in the car, and had a 2.5 year old in tow asking for more of the organic cheese crackers and "gapes" (free in store samples at TJ that day). My brain wasn't totally on yet!

Quote:
(You can find a variety of cheeses at both Walmart and Aldi's. I don't know what makes them so 'luxury', unless you pick up each wedge in someone's cart to see the $/lb for each....same for champagne: you can get it at Aldi or any store for $5-$10/bottle, or you can spend $100+/bottle. No one knows how much you spend unless it has the sticker on it)
Maybe I oversold just how luxurious my cart was. The capers are a lot cheaper at TJ's than walmart (2x the amount for the same price IIRC). Artichokes about the same as aldi if aldi has them (not often). Cheese was $6/lb creamy havarti and I think I put back the $6/lb brie (we're going out of town in a few days and the expiry date was close). Those prices are as cheap as aldi but I think TJ quality is better. Wine was all 3 buck chuck except the $5.49 champagne.

From a quick glance I think the cart could be perceived as luxurious since you don't know what kind of wine was in the case ($3 or $18?). What kind of cheese - $6/lb or $15/lb? In any event, none of these items are necessities. I personally consider them luxuries.


Quote:
So you were already feeling "awkward". But why? Did you have to push the cart in front of you up to the store clerk, showing off all of your "clearly luxury goods" in front of you? Were you able to leave the cart at the front of the aisle and walk up to them without your cart, to save yourself some awkwardness so they didn't have to gaze into your cart and see tons of things that would show hints at your lifestyle?
I suppose I could have. I didn't really think about it at the time. I kind of stumbled into the awkward moment and didn't realize what I was saying until the moment I was saying it. Although anyone shopping at TJ's is indulging in luxury spending to some extent (many of the goods in there can be purchased cheaper elsewhere).
__________________

__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Awkward Holiday Photos REWahoo Other topics 28 12-20-2012 12:07 AM
How to avoid an awkward prenup discussion when you have adult children... Nords FIRE and Money 24 08-12-2011 11:08 AM
when LBYM gets awkward figner FIRE and Money 44 05-17-2011 03:52 PM
From the fine folks who brought us Awkward Family Photos... REWahoo Other topics 14 07-16-2010 10:30 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:00 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.