Bail out U.S. automakers?

[laurence]

I look at this way: If Honda, Toyota, and Nissan needed a bailout, would there be any discussion at all in Congress? The answer is a flat "NO", they would be chastised for making poor business decisions and allowed to fail. Why impose a different standard on the Big 3, 3 companies that have been operating with inept management for over 30 years??

It is precisely this double standard that has caused them to be in such poor state. Lee Iacoca would have been told to pound sand if he was looking for a handout for Toyota and not Chrysler.

Part of me thinks Big 3 management hasn't been inept. They have been operating rationally in their mind, factoring in their big advantage of U.S. govt assitance if needed all this time.

 

[FinanceDude]

Part of me thinks Big 3 management hasn't been inept. They have been operating rationally in their mind, factoring in their big advantage of U.S. govt assitance if needed all this time.

Inept is a strong word. How about greedy SOB's?? There, now I feel better........

I remember a clip on MSNBC a few years ago. They interviewed a UAW worker that has all hot and bothered about upcoming UAW contract talks. The thing he was most upset about was NOT being able to put BOTH kids through private college on his earnings.

I know the maintenance supervisor at the Janesville plant. With overtime and holiday pay, he was making an average of $200,000 a year, plus benefits........

 

[youbet]

I look at this way: If Honda, Toyota, and Nissan needed a bailout, would there be any discussion at all in Congress? The answer is a flat "NO", they would be chastised for making poor business decisions and allowed to fail. Why impose a different standard on the Big 3, 3 companies that have been operating with inept management for over 30 years??

Gee...... could the Big Three be getting preferential treatment because they are predominantly union and located in Blue States? Honda, Toyota and Nissan tend to be non-union and in Red States. Hmmmmmmm......let's see....... thinking......thinking....... Yep, it looks like the Big Three and UAW would deliver the Dem votes.

I think the $25B now under discussion was promised by Barack pre-election. The real question is how many additional 100's of billions will be forthcoming over the next couple of years. And how will labor laws be changed to ensure the UAW being able to quickly and easily organize the Honda, Toyota and Nissan plants to create a level playing field for the Big Three? We'll all pay the ongoing cost when we buy our $35k Civic.

 

[FinanceDude]

I think the $25B now under discussion was promised by Barack pre-election. The real question is how many additional 100's of billions will be forthcoming over the next couple of years. And how will labor laws be changed to ensure the UAW being able to quickly and easily organize the Honda, Toyota and Nissan plants to create a level playing field for the Big Three?

Honda, Toyota, and Nissan seem to be doing just fine. I wonder why? Oh, I got it. They make vehicles that don't break down every 3-4 months.......what a business model!!

 

[laurence]

Honda, Toyota, and Nissan seem to be doing just fine. I wonder why? Oh, I got it. They make vehicles that don't break down every 3-4 months.......what a business model!!

I think the quality at U.S. autos has gone up, the new Malibu is actually a good looking car, and mechanical/quality issues seem to be largely worked out. But it takes time for perceptions to change and trust to be rebuilt. I believe there is a legitimate case to be made that if if the big 3 were to make it through the next 18 months they could return to profitability. But my fear is with $2 gas again, it will be with big shiny SUVs again. Republican Senators already want the $25 billion allocated for green technology used to just keep the fires lit at the Big 3 to keep the status quo.

 

[FinanceDude]

I think the quality at U.S. autos has gone up, the new Malibu is actually a good looking car, and mechanical/quality issues seem to be largely worked out. But it takes time for perceptions to change and trust to be rebuilt. I believe there is a legitimate case to be made that if if the big 3 were to make it through the next 18 months they could return to profitability. But my fear is with $2 gas again, it will be with big shiny SUVs again. Republican Senators already want the $25 billion allocated for green technology used to just keep the fires lit at the Big 3 to keep the status quo.

Cobalt or Civic?
Malibu or Accord?
Lucerne or Avalon?
Cadillac or Lexus?
Silverado or Tacoma?

Tell me which one is considered more reliable, and you have your answer..........

 

[Bestwifeever]

and again, as posted on other bailout thread:

Aid prospects darken for desperate US carmakers - Yahoo! News

 

[samclem]

I think the Detroit 3 get a bit of a bum rap. Quality has improved in the last several years.

Too little, too late. How is a customer supposed to judge if the new Detroit cars are really any good? They've been telling us they are "just as good" as Japanese cars for over 20 years, and it has been a consistent lie. The truth is, you don't knw if the components (power steering pumps, wiper motors, transmission parts, seals, brake calipers, etc) are well made until they've had 5-10 years of use. To build goodwill and a reputation for reliability with 2008 consumers, GM would have had to pull even with Toyota in the qualty of build and the quality of subcomponents in 1998. Compare the reliabilty of the 1998 Pontiacs on the road today with the 1998 Toyotas on the road today. Case closed

Sorry, Big Three. You did it to yourself by "doing it" to us for all those years. Go bankrupt, and start with new management and a clean sheet of paper.

 

[barbarus]

And explain to me again how this "yet another bailout" is not socialism. I particularly want to hear from you rock-ribbed republicans.

 

[Steve O]

I've never owned a foriegn car and I never will

 

[harley]

Socialism is gov't ownership of industry. This is just stoopid capitalism. And I'm a Libertarian, the party called "too mean to be republicans".

 

[samclem]

I've never owned a foriegn car and I never will

Luckily, you can buy a well made American-built Honda any time you want. You'll be keeping your pledge and not leaving oil stains and transmission fluid all over the place.
Or, I guess you could buy a Japanese-built Ford.

 

[barbarus]

Socialism is gov't ownership of industry. This is just stoopid capitalism. And I'm a Libertarian, the party called "too mean to be republicans".

So am I. I just use "Ole Karl" as an avatar in memory of George W. Bush and the Neocoms. I mean Neocons.

 

[Delawaredave5]

I keep hearing how much better American cars are these days. I stopped buying American cars in the 1980s, early.

American cars are very good quality and a great value. Japanese have highest quality - but you pay more for that quality.

European cars are no more reliable than American cars, cost more up front, and have high repair costs.

My BIL keeps buying Volvos - for the status - every one had problems - last one dealer could not solve a problem and they had to replace the car.

I drive Ford Taurus for work - 50,000 miles/year - have driven 5 Taurus cars over 80,000 miles each - only regular maintenance - never a problem - I have been very impressed.

The US auto makers are bankrupt because of union, healthcare, and retirement costs.

 

[OAG]

After yesterday and the "lack of support" it seems the decision has been "pushed under the rug" or "down the street" for, at least, the next 74 days. But of course HR (our "leader of the Senate") will keep trying! Wonder how much money was wasted for this "lame duck" session? With all the secure networks in this country, why do we have to pay for these [-]clowns[/-] folks to travel back and forth?

 

[Yankees Rule]

American cars are very good quality and a great value. Japanese have highest quality - but you pay more for that quality.

European cars are no more reliable than American cars, cost more up front, and have high repair costs.

My BIL keeps buying Volvos - for the status - every one had problems - last one dealer could not solve a problem and they had to replace the car.

I drive Ford Taurus for work - 50,000 miles/year - have driven 5 Taurus cars over 80,000 miles each - only regular maintenance - never a problem - I have been very impressed.

The US auto makers are bankrupt because of union, healthcare, and retirement costs.

Volvo now? Nope never, since Ford bought the major interest. When they were simple and built in Sweden they were great . I put 300,000 miles on a 240 1990 model with no problems. I bought a a toyota sedan in 04 and paid only 18,000 and now have about 80 on it and not a rattle not a single issue. Tried to help a friend replace a hose on a taurus last month. Wow, what an issue. They use a solid piece at the connection. Can not replace on the driveway, needed to be taken to the dealer. Look at your hoses, are they the same? It was a heater hose.

 

[Lazarus]

I have been reading this thread and hearing the Japanese good American bad car argument and just had to chime in again.
I happen to own a 2000 Honda Accord and did own a 2002 Ford F150.

Honda has 112,000 miles. Repairs:

Replaced rack and pinion unit.
Recharged Air Conditioning
Replaced transmission.
Seat belt warning stays on all the time. Dealer could not fix. Known problem with model.
Air conditioning is out again now. Have not fixed it yet.

The Honda is getting about 22 MPG for some reason now. Used to get closer to 30 MPG.

Ford F150 had 111,000 when sold a few months ago. Repairs:

O2 sensor replaced under warranty.


That’s it. Doesn’t look like the Japanese cars win in my experience. I would still have the Ford except that I traded it in on another new F150 when they were practically giving them away when the gas was high.

 

[Dawg52]

I have been reading this thread and hearing the Japanese good American bad car argument and just had to chime in again.
I happen to own a 2000 Honda Accord and did own a 2002 Ford F150.

Honda has 112,000 miles. Repairs:

Replaced rack and pinion unit.
Recharged Air Conditioning
Replaced transmission.
Seat belt warning stays on all the time. Dealer could not fix. Known problem with model.
Air conditioning is out again now. Have not fixed it yet.

The Honda is getting about 22 MPG for some reason now. Used to get closer to 30 MPG.

Ford F150 had 111,000 when sold a few months ago. Repairs:

O2 sensor replaced under warranty.


That’s it. Doesn’t look like the Japanese cars win in my experience. I would still have the Ford except that I traded it in on another new F150 when they were practically giving them away when the gas was high.

Similar experiences here. I have owned an Accord and a Mazda RX 7. Both had just as much maintenance performed on them as GM cars I've owned.

 

[tuixiu]

I'm sure you can get anecdotal evidence of any car performing better than any other... what are the result from organizations that aggregate this information to present in an unbiased manner like CR and JDP?

I've not researched a vehicle in the last few years but from my experience their lists of highest quality in almost every class of vehicle heavily favors Japanese brands. If we're going to attack a position of quality that's where your arrows should be fired, not at Joe's Accord that didn't run as well as his Malibu.

 

[FinanceDude]

American cars are very good quality and a great value. Japanese have highest quality - but you pay more for that quality.

It seems to be worth it to me after 24 years of disappointments with American carmakers.

European cars are no more reliable than American cars, cost more up front, and have high repair costs.

True, but I don't see many BMW, Mercedes, and Audi owners bitching. VW owners are another story.........

I drive Ford Taurus for work - 50,000 miles/year - have driven 5 Taurus cars over 80,000 miles each - only regular maintenance - never a problem - I have been very impressed.

You're smart, American cars really start tanking after 80,000 miles.......

The US auto makers are bankrupt because of union, healthcare, and retirement costs.

True..but how is that the TAXPAYER'S fault, and why is it our responsibility to help them out. MANY business have failed due to poor planning, and we didn;t bail them out.......

 

[Zathras]

To me the number one factor in a new car is fuel efficiency. This is why the domestics have lost my business.
I would be driving an EV1 if GM hadn't stopped selling/leasing them and scrapped them.
I will be happy to look at the Volt (which ever company buys the project when GM goes into bankruptcy). And eagerly anticipate the Tesla sedan due out in 2010.
But for the next 2 years, I'll be happy with my 79mpg Prius (that includes a battery conversion).

 

[FinanceDude]

I have been reading this thread and hearing the Japanese good American bad car argument and just had to chime in again.
I happen to own a 2000 Honda Accord and did own a 2002 Ford F150.

Honda has 112,000 miles. Repairs:

Replaced rack and pinion unit.
Recharged Air Conditioning
Replaced transmission.
Seat belt warning stays on all the time. Dealer could not fix. Known problem with model.
Air conditioning is out again now. Have not fixed it yet.

The Honda is getting about 22 MPG for some reason now. Used to get closer to 30 MPG.

Ford F150 had 111,000 when sold a few months ago. Repairs:

O2 sensor replaced under warranty.


That’s it. Doesn’t look like the Japanese cars win in my experience. I would still have the Ford except that I traded it in on another new F150 when they were practically giving them away when the gas was high.

Last American car, a 2004 Chrysler Town and Country, it had 44 miles on it when I bought it:

17,000 miles - new tie rod ends and bushings.
21,000 miles - new power steering pump
29,000 miles - new rack and pinion
33,000 miles - new catalytic converter
35,000 miles - new fuel pump
37,000 miles - got SECOND rack and pinion because the first one failed.
41,000 miles - rear coolant tubes for rear heat/AC got corroded, had to replace.
44,000 miles - sold car, gave a 2 inch binder full or service records to buyer......

I could go on if you want.........

 

[Westernskies]

I believe any financial assistance package should be tied to the automakers divesting themselves of uncompetitive (management, manufacturing, and union) practices and contracts, not divesting themselves of their private pension obligations. The whole PBGT scheme encourages fraud and mismanagement- recruit and hire by promising employees a great pension plan as part of an overall compensation plan that isn't market-competitive. When it's time to pay out those benefits , declare bankruptcy and dump the [-]pack of lies [/-] pension plan on the taxpayers. For best results, rinse and repeat.

The UAW and the automakers are equally responsible for the mess they are in, IMO, and both need to come to the table -hand-in-hand -with radical, sweeping contractual plans for reform before I would LEND them a dime.

 

[tuixiu]

And for the (anecdotal) record, 1998 Toyota Corolla here, 96K miles.

So far outside of regular maintenance (battery, brakes) I've had exactly one problem: the automatic door locks no longer work for the back doors if opened from the master switch on the driver's door during warmer weather. They make a little thump in some feeble effort to push up but fail.

Fortunately cool weather is arriving so I will soon enjoy the glory of all locks working automatically until late February.

 

[ERD50]

A line I read from another forum applies here:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

-ERD50