Bailout bill fails

[FIREd]

Well, I guess we'll see if capitalism can, without government intervention, sort out the mess it created in the first place. We will all serve as guinea pigs for this real-life experiment! It's so fun!!!!

 

[ziggy29]

Quote from a Congresscritter:

"We're all worried about losing our jobs," Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., declared in an impassioned speech in support of the bill before the vote. "Most of us say, 'I want this thing to pass, but I want you to vote for it — not me.' "

Now THAT is leadership.

 

[CompoundInterestFan]

When you really think about it, if the $700,000,000,000 would have prevented the worst case scenarios it would have been money well spent.

That's the problem, though--no one really knows what's going to happen. I've heard intelligent people claim that if we don't pass the bailout, we'll go through a period of short-term pain, but everything will work itself out after that. I've also heard other intelligent people claim that we're facing economic catastrophe if we don't pass the bill. Tough to know who to believe.

If congress really wants to pass this bill, they have to do a much better sales job than they're doing. Even if you can't agree with the decision, at least we can be thankful that our representatives appear to be listening to us. Whether or not that's a good thing is another story.

 

[donheff]

This is great news. I am so happy that we have not piled another 700 billion in debt on our grandchildren's shoulders.

Except this would not have piled another $700B in debt. It might have piled up none depending on how the assets bought ultimately performed. If they don't work out a deal we get to see if the economic pundits are correct that we will experience a global financial meltdown. If things get as bad as some of the prediction we will end up piling a lot more than $700B on our grand kids shoulders.

 

[TromboneAl]

Exactly right. Joe Mainstreet doesn't understand it, complains to congressman, congressman gets scared, votes no.

 

[camberiu]

If they don't work out a deal we get to see if the economic pundits are correct that we will experience a global financial meltdown. If things get as bad as some of the prediction we will end up piling a lot more than $700B on our grand kids shoulders.

The same "economists" that today are saying that without this bill the world will end were, just six months ago, saying that everything was fine and that the fundamentals were solid. The ones that were sounding the alarm 6 years ago are the same ones that today are saying that this bail out will not solve anything and will just make matters worse. Which ones do you think have more credibility?

 

[DragoMuseveni]

That's the problem, though--no one really knows what's going to happen. I've heard intelligent people claim that if we don't pass the bailout, we'll go through a period of short-term pain, but everything will work itself out after that. I've also heard other intelligent people claim that we're facing economic catastrophe if we don't pass the bill. Tough to know who to believe.

That we don't know what will happen is the problem. To oversimplify, if we'd have passed the bailout bill our downside would have been $700,000,000,000. But since we didn't pass it our downside could be potentially unlimited. WaMu went splat last week, Wachovia went splat today. I hate to think about what is next. Now is not the time to roll the dice.

I looked at the bailout as a kind of insurance. Flood insurance may cost alot, and you might use it once every hundred years, but it can be the difference between financial survival and spending the rest of your days as a Wal-Mart greeter when a big flood hits.

 

[W2R]

To be quite honest, I haven't decided one way or the other, whether "I be fer it, er I be agin it". I can see the good and the bad of either decision.

So I think maybe I'll just go fishin' and see if I can find an absolutely 100% positive outcome in that.......well positive in everyone's eyes 'cept maybe the fish's.

Goonie, you are a wise man!! Have a great time.

 

[Canadian Grunt]

Exactly right. Joe Mainstreet doesn't understand it, complains to congressman, congressman gets scared, votes no.

Paulson made a mistake high balling the figures required. He should have gone with 250 B with more to come if necessary. The 700 B-1 T figure caused people to lose their minds and made it hard for congress to vote without negative feedback from their electorate.

 

[Gardnr]

I'd like to think that. But right now it feels like the choices are to run through a wall of fire (do the bailout) or plunge into a vat of acid (do nothing).

I'd like to play the "good free market capitalist" card but when these Wall Street clowns have the potential to ruin millions of innocent people when they ruin themselves, I don't think "let 'em go under" is necessarily appropriate.

If anything else, it ought to give us cause to reconsider whether a business should be able to become "too big to fail" because of the hurt its failure would put on a lot of innocent parties.

+1 Ziggy Sometimes I swear we must be virtual twins. Just about every time you post something I would swear you were channeling my thoughts! Keep it up! It saves me the typing.

 

[FIREd]

WaMu went splat last week, Wachovia went splat today. I hate to think about what is next.

I was a Wachovia customer until this morning. Now I guess I am a Citi customer (great!, weren't they on the endangered list too?). Who knows who my bank will be in a month's time!

 

[HFWR]

C'mon boys and girls, time to back up the truck. They're having a sale...

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

"Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 84 (28 members and 56 guests)"

edit:

"Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 102 (39 members and 63 guests)"

(hmmm, seems to be running inverse to the stock market)

 

[CompoundInterestFan]

Tif we'd have passed the bailout bill our downside would have been $700,000,000,000.

Not true. That's what it's initially limited to, but they may very well find that it isn't enough. It's just an artificial limit.

But since we didn't pass it our downside could be potentially unlimited. WaMu went splat last week, Wachovia went splat today. I hate to think about what is next.

I could be oversimplifying here, but aren't bank failures a sign that capitalism is working? Don't we need failures for the system to work? Didn't we have hundreds more bank failures during the S&L scandal?

Now is not the time to roll the dice.

And what do you think they're doing with this bill? They're not sure it's going to produce the results they're claiming. I think anything at this point is rolling the dice.

I'm not an economist, so I don't know. However, the vast majority of the politicians urging support for the bill aren't economists either. And there are plenty of economists who don't support the bailout. So like I said, tough to know who to believe.

 

[DragoMuseveni]

C'mon boys and girls, time to back up the truck. They're having a sale...

Lol. Good point.

 

[Starship trooper]

Here's the roll call....link courtesy of the NY Times

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

hfwr, yer gonna love this. i'm actually typing on a desk i purchased from the remains of the old miami-based centrust during the s&l debacle. i hope it isn't jinxed.

my desk used to be here (i'm not sure where it's gonna be when i have to sell it--fuel for cooking?)

 

[Dawg52]

C'mon boys and girls, time to back up the truck. They're having a sale...

Why buy now when the DOW could be at 5000 shortly?

 

[Canadian Grunt]

C'mon boys and girls, time to back up the truck. They're having a sale...

Currently our stock market is down 945 points....no panic here

But I keep thinking it will go lower over the next few months whether the bailout eventually gets passed or not. I think we are in a global slow down regardless of any bailout packages. Two European banks failed this weekend and another was thrown a lifeline in Germany.

I keep putting money into the market and it heads lower...I am waiting it out...I still think we have much more decline to come in 2009. Maybe nibble a bit on the way down

 

[Dawg52]

Here's the roll call....link courtesy of the NY Times

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

Well I'll be darn. My congressman voted yes.

 

[Running_Man]

I could be oversimplifying here, but aren't bank failures a sign that capitalism is working? Don't we need failures for the system to work? Didn't we have hundreds more bank failures during the S&L scandal?


.

I do not believe so, the banks were not operating under the assumption that it was a capitalist system. The assumption was the government sponsored entities would provide a ready market to hold up home prices and provide to the masses mortgages that many individuals would not be able to obtain under a capitalistic system. The government program to encourage housing, furthered even deeper by extending easy mortgage terms to non-qualifiers with mortgage "insurance" provided the bubble. It is merely the unwinding of this non-capitalistic bubble that is causing the problem. Nobody wants that paper anymore.

Under a purely capitalistic system, many people would have been renters instead of borrowers.

 

[lazygood4nothinbum]

maybe this nay vote was the lesson. shooting off a toe. (my rep voted aye)

 

[ziggy29]

Here's the roll call....link courtesy of the NY Times

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2008/roll674.xml

Looks like the relative moderates of both parties were more likely to support it, and the relative extremists of both parties opposed it.

 

[Hershey102]

I guess I am the only one here who is happy about the outcome. It will hurt for the short term, but in the long term, it is best to let te market sort itself out. I still have faith in Capitalism.

I agree. Water will find its own level and, despite the rhetoric, the sky is not falling. If the stock market is overpriced, then let it correct itself short of government artificially propping up prices. Unfortunately, I sense that the politicians will, in the end, vote to continue this nonsense thru a bailout. I have more faith in capitalism than socialism.

 

[Bimmerbill]

I think they will just do some more posturing, and vote again tomorrow, or WED. Then it will pass.