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Old 11-19-2013, 09:02 PM   #41
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Having spent 36 years in an aviation union (Airline Pilots Assoc at United), I can tell you that the greed and stupidity of unions can be matched only by the greed and stupidity of management. At least 50% of the labor-management battles I observed, could have and should have been prevented by a little long term thinking on one or both sides.

Having said that, I suspect that the IAM is taking a gamble where the risk outweighs the reward in Seattle.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:39 PM   #42
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Another twist is that with globalization, the suppliers to Boeing are also willing to sell to Airbus. Boeing itself buys from overseas suppliers, often as a way to win some support from foreign countries.
I believe some Airbus parts are made in Kansas. It's all part of making sure everybody has a positive interest in buying your plane.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:46 PM   #43
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I'm in Seattle and I think the message from Boeing has been pretty clear: we're gradually severing our ties with the PNW.

Corporate headquarters moved from Seattle: check.

Building planes outside of Seattle: check.
<snip>
Amen that Seattle isn't a one industry town anymore. It'll still hurt, but hopefully it will be gradual and can be absorbed by other industries.
IMHO, the best thing our political leaders can do in the short and medium term is keep the tax concessions on the table, and get labor and management together to work this thing out. In the long term, they should work to get more diversity in the local business market so that as Boeing leaves the area as they seem to be planning, the state can shrug it off. The problem is that new businesses may not offer the kind of pay and benefits that the machinists just turned down.
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Old 11-19-2013, 11:01 PM   #44
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I think the message from Boeing has been pretty clear: we're gradually severing our ties with the PNW.
Well, and maybe no wonder. If the machinists turn down a commitment for decades of future work with angry rants about the company taking advantage of them, then the company will probably want the work to go somewhere else.

In an interesting twist, some big customers for 777x have been making public statements today that they want their planes built in ONE PLACE, whether it's the Puget Sound or elsewhere. But they do NOT want the kinds of problems the 787 suffered from being build by separate groups all over the world and then crammed together (sort of) in final assembly.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:25 AM   #45
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I believe some Airbus parts are made in Kansas. It's all part of making sure everybody has a positive interest in buying your plane.
Yes. It's a game that everybody can and has to play.

Globalization is a great equalizer. One is in denial mode if he thinks otherwise.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:43 AM   #46
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Not as much of a loss as losing out to Airbus, but every time jobs move to where labor is cheaper, we continue the race to the bottom and average real wages continue to fall. I'm not sure that's "good" for the USA either.
Of course global competition is a reality, and so is the desire to be as profitable as possible even if a company has a wide "mote".
If a company is truly excellent (a history of reading the market right and building high-quality innovative products that meet market demand better than competitors do), it seems that the most sure-fire way to benefit from that excellence as an individual is to own some of that company rather than to work for it. Staying competitive and being a strong company may mean being very careful about assessing the value of everything that goes into the product and spending only what is required. Loyalty? I think it's more useful (and healthy) to be very objective and dispassionate about the employer/employee relationship.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:53 AM   #47
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Just posted in the Seattle Times

"States Salivating for 777-X Feast"

States salivating for Boeing 777X feast | Local News | The Seattle Times
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:26 AM   #48
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IMHO, the best thing our political leaders can do in the short and medium term is keep the tax concessions on the table, and get labor and management together to work this thing out. In the long term, they should work to get more diversity in the local business market so that as Boeing leaves the area as they seem to be planning, the state can shrug it off. The problem is that new businesses may not offer the kind of pay and benefits that the machinists just turned down.
As SIS pointed out earlier, we have a new council member in Seattle. I don't think anyone from Boeing is going to rush out to negotiate with her. Fortunately her actual ability to get anything done will be limited, since she's only one voice on the council. But she'll definitely get plenty of press.

http://www.votesawant.org/boeing_stop_the_blackmailing

"Boeing's attacks on its workforce, together with the company's demand for $8.7 billion in concessions from the State - to be paid for out of increased taxes on all workers and small businesses - can only be described as corporate blackmail. Kshama Sawant and Socialist Alternative stand in solidarity with Boeing workers in the face of these attacks. "

I understand not wanting to race to the bottom, but I think of this as running to the middle. These are still reasonably well paid jobs based on the educational requirements and locking them into our region for the next few decades is good. Remember the auto industry in Detroit. Where are these jobs now? And I don't think many in the southern states are complaining.

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Just posted in the Seattle Times "States Salivating for 777-X Feast" States salivating for Boeing 777X feast | Local News | The Seattle Times
And I don't blame them. At some point we need to support job creators. If we don't, then somebody else will. It's great that the workers don't want to give in, but what will they say when they end up with nothing except an unemployment check?
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:15 AM   #49
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It sounds like a lot of the workers already have good pay and pensions? Maybe a lot of them are near retirement?

So their votes are as much for future workers rather than themselves?

As far as the Detroit comparison, Boeing isn't in the dire straits that the car companies were. It's hardly in need of bailouts or concessions from labor.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:04 AM   #50
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Dec 1969. My first layoff (from Boeing) and thus embarking on my cross country 30 yr career in aerospace. My apartment was the 46th to be vacated out of 90 total newly built within two years in Kent WA south of Seattle. 15 more after me had already given their notice and they were trying to void 700 plus teaching contracts because school enrollment was falling so rapidly. The ripple effect thu the local economy was huge. Our sister city Kobe Japan was sending us Care packages so the churches could feed 78,000 per week according to the paper.
You were layed off with my father. He was in the machinists union. That layoff let me see what poor looked like again. My father had been a machinist with a steel company that went belly up about a decade earlier.

I also graduated from high school that year. The high school was in Des Moines although we had a Kent address. There were no part time or summer jobs to be had. It made for a bleak start at college. I had a tuition scholarship and $600. I probably wouldn't have made it through the first year without the houseboy job I got.

Would the last person leaving Seattle please turn out the lights. I think that was the headline on the Seattle PI (or it could have been the Times).
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:13 AM   #51
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Unions can be a funny thing. I find it hard to imagine that the rank and file would vote down a contract that the union was truly recommending for passage. I can't help but think that there was a quiet wisper campaign against it or that there is an effort by another group to take over the union.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:38 AM   #52
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Unions can be a funny thing. I find it hard to imagine that the rank and file would vote down a contract that the union was truly recommending for passage. I can't help but think that there was a quiet wisper campaign against it or that there is an effort by another group to take over the union.
Based upon the comments I've heard machinist friends make, sometimes I'm not sure they trust their union management much more than they trust Boeing management.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:41 AM   #53
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Based upon the comments I've heard machinist friends make, sometimes I'm not sure they trust their union management much more than they trust Boeing management.
You're not paranoid if they really are out to get you...

From limited past experience as a union member, there is often/always peer pressure to not give in...
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Old 11-20-2013, 08:16 AM   #54
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At least Seattle is somewhat diversified, having Microsoft and Amazon headquarters. Maybe we can attract more tech to replace any lost Boeing jobs. I don't care a great deal as we are leaving the state when we ER in 2015. I haven't figured out which state to claim as a home yet, but considering Florida.
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Old 11-20-2013, 11:18 AM   #55
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Just posted in the Seattle Times

"States Salivating for 777-X Feast"

States salivating for Boeing 777X feast | Local News | The Seattle Times
Excellent, thanks for posting. I was able to read it, so I guess I am still in my quota of free articles this month.

I haven't subscribed in years, because while I like their business and sports news, the rest of it leaves me cold. I especially hate the Sunday Real Estate cheerleading section, and all the sob stories.

Great quote from Tommie Battlle, mayor of Huntsville. "Huntsville offers something Washington cannot, a good workforce that continually works and will not have work stoppages."

I agree with the consultant who assisted with the South Carolina plant choice for the 787, but is not working on this, that the key factor will be perceived quantity and quality of workforce. She also said that the 3 month deadline makes it very likely that only sites that are already involved with Boeing are likely to be in the running. If IAM Local 751 can be mollified, I expect it to be mostly built in Everett. But this is not somehing I would want to bet on. It might be the favorite, but taken as a group, the field has the edge.

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Old 11-20-2013, 12:14 PM   #56
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BTW, I moved from Delta to United, partly because United was scheduled to get 787s in their fleet.

But those have faced delays and cancellations, even without suffering the more documented problems that other airlines faced with the 787.

Also hearing though that the seats are more cramped in the 787, both in economy and business. A lot of people say business class in 777 is better.

Then you have labor strife and the new planes don't look as appealing as they should.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:33 PM   #57
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As SIS pointed out earlier, we have a new council member in Seattle. I don't think anyone from Boeing is going to rush out to negotiate with her. Fortunately her actual ability to get anything done will be limited, since she's only one voice on the council. But she'll definitely get plenty of press.

Boeing - Stop the Blackmailing - Vote Sawant

Boeing is not really in Seattle very much. It's two big construction plants are in the cities of Renton and Everett. It's airport is outside the Seattle city limits. Obviously, its corporate headquarters are in Chicago. Perhaps somebody can tell us what facilities Boeing actually has in the the Seattle city limits.
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Old 11-20-2013, 12:42 PM   #58
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Boeing is not really in Seattle very much. It's two big construction plants are in the cities of Renton and Everett. It's airport is outside the Seattle city limits. Obviously, its corporate headquarters are in Chicago. Perhaps somebody can tell us what facilities Boeing actually has in the the Seattle city limits.
I think people are mostly using Seattle as a metro designation, not thinking that Boeing plants or Paine Field are in the City of Seattle. Neither is Microsoft of course, but losing that payroll would certainly be a dark day in Seattle. As you are aware, Seattle is actually a pretty small city, in area and in population.

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Old 11-20-2013, 12:46 PM   #59
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I think people are mostly using Seattle as a metro designation, not thinking that Boeing plants or Paine Field are in the City of Seattle. Neither is Microsoft of course, but losing that payroll would certainly be a dark day in Seattle. As you are aware, Seattle is actually a pretty small city, in acreage and in population.

Ha
All very true, Ha. My point is that one socialist on the Seattle City Council doesn't really affect Boeing very much. Seattle while the big gorilla on the block, makes up only about 1/3 the population of King county and maybe 1/12 the population of the entire state. I doubt if the citizens of Everett, Renton, etc. are going to gang up on Boeing just to make a Seattle city council person happy. I don't think she represents their views at all. Just the views of those living in the People's Republic of Seattle.

Oh. Congratulations on your new mayor. He has got to be an improvement.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:11 PM   #60
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All very true, Ha. My point is that one socialist on the Seattle City Council doesn't really affect Boeing very much. Seattle while the big gorilla on the block, makes up only about 1/3 the population of King county and maybe 1/12 the population of the entire state. I doubt if the citizens of Everett, Renton, etc. are going to gang up on Boeing just to make a Seattle city council person happy. I don't think she represents their views at all. Just the views of those living in the People's Republic of Seattle.

Oh. Congratulations on your new mayor. He has got to be an improvement.
I see; I didn't understand the thrust of your post. Seattle is definitely an island of weirdness.

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