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Old 02-21-2015, 11:56 AM   #21
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I wasn't the OP on the 2nd attached post. So I'm afraid it's still 55 for me. No COLA for me either, but our monthly pension payouts do increase if we delay the start date. This aspect is more or less a wash (greater monthly payouts, but starting later), but the tax implications of keeping one's AGI super-low are the interesting part.
Oops. Missed that you were not the OP on the other post. I'm keeping my fingers crossed our retiree medical is still there from 55-62.
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:00 PM   #22
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Sounds like my pre-fire days at another aerospace megacorp. The top cheeses routinely got 10% or more bonuses and we peon engineers would typically get 2.5 - 3.0% "Employee Incentive Plan" payouts in a good year.
Got it. That sounds consistent!
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:07 PM   #23
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Was mandatory to listen to Ray Conner spew his rhetoric regarding the reasoning for the lower bonus. To me, he's just a condesending ahole who is working to the best interest of his own pocket book. Boeing corporate has been playing hard ball reducing work pay/pension liability to the bottom line. Oh well, DW and I will gladly help them reduce 2 worker postions in 5 years. I'm praying for a layoff, since we are already in the 6 year window to be able to qualify for ER at 55.
The area I have worked in has had two rounds of voluntary layoffs (VLO). The pkg is up to 26 weeks pay for year of service and then unemployment insurance to 6 months.

I would guess that about 50% of those surplus skill codes have taken it.

I've read the material and noticed the "if you are within 6 years of ER at 55 then certain benefits are enhanced" or something like that.

I can't find out the specifics however. Have you seen the details around being over 49 years old? Thanks!
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:22 PM   #24
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I may have answered my own question. Managers get much more than us this year.
Boeing managers to get annual bonuses of 12.5% to 22.5% | The Seattle Times
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Old 02-21-2015, 12:24 PM   #25
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Regions such as the Seattle area must realize that Boeing sent a strong message when it moved its headquarters to Chicago. There is no loyalty to employees or regions. Build a bridge and get over it.
Jet city no more. IMO, Boeing's Puget Sound Operations are in run-off. A long run-off, but a run-off none the less.

The kind of pay and benefits that rank and file Boeing workers get present an attractive target for long term cost reduction. Plus, management seems to have had it with Puget Sound labor troubles and out of date attitudes.

I visited my hip surgeon in Renton yesterday. I asked myself, why are these high volume, award winning surgeons in Renton? Boeing benefits and the 737!

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Old 02-21-2015, 12:43 PM   #26
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I may have answered my own question. Managers get much more than us this year.
Boeing managers to get annual bonuses of 12.5% to 22.5% | The Seattle Times
Yeah, but then you'd have to do all the stuff Boeing managers do. I tried that for a while and no thanks. Let them keep their 12 -22% so long as I can just quietly mess around in my lab.

In a more general sense I just can't get too upset at a company that's rewarded me pretty well over the years just because they've rewarded others even better.
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Old 02-21-2015, 02:37 PM   #27
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Yeah, but then you'd have to do all the stuff Boeing managers do. I tried that for a while and no thanks. Let them keep their 12 -22% so long as I can just quietly mess around in my lab.

In a more general sense I just can't get too upset at a company that's rewarded me pretty well over the years just because they've rewarded others even better.
Good point. I need to get over it. For me since i sit amongst them all in our row of cubes I saw I could do that but then again never have. They have those fun tasks like salary planning, RIF's, PM's etc. I know that can't be fun.

Cheers.
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Old 02-21-2015, 04:16 PM   #28
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About managers at megacorps having to do a lot of work, yes, they do, but it's mostly BS work. I think they create a lot of busy work for themselves, then pat themselves on the back for staying up late to get it done. Does the kind of work they do really improve the product, enhance the productivity, or simply to annoy and harass the employees?

I am speaking of megacorps in general. My 1st job out of school, the one I recall with fondness, was with a midsize but prominent aerospace company. We never did have meetings about the buzzwords du jour. We just tried hard to do our best, and took pride in our products. There was no meeting to remind employees of ethical conducts or integrity. It went without saying that falsifying records or stealing would result in termination and/or criminal prosecution. Didn't people learn that in grammar school? Adult workers did not have to be reminded of that in quarterly "training" classes.

After I left the company, it was bought out and changed hand a couple of times. A decade or two later, I ran across an employee newsletter that the new corp put out; it had an article about the new VP of Diversity. Good Grief! An entire office to promote diversity! I never noticed any outrageous racism or sexism at that old work place. What the hell happened?

PS. I encouraged my son to find a job with a mid-size company. I talk to him often about his work, how he interacts with his managers. I am glad that his work environment is just like my 1st job, where managers care about the company and their workers. They are quick to recognize and reward good workers. And recently my son's corp just gave an across-the-board raise, and also upped the 401k matching and bonus. Last but not least, my son is not subjected to BS and propaganda like I have seen at huge megacorps.
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Old 02-21-2015, 06:33 PM   #29
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A decade or two later, I ran across an employee newsletter that the new corp put out; it had an article about the new VP of Diversity. Good Grief! An entire office to promote diversity! I never noticed any outrageous racism or sexism at that old work place. What the hell happened?
Someone discovered vast pools of hidden bias. Can't argue with progress, can you?
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Old 02-21-2015, 07:12 PM   #30
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the new VP of Diversity. Good Grief! An entire office to promote diversity! .

Very funny. The actual purpose of an Officer responsible for Diversity is twofold.

The Diversity Officer gives management someone to point to when there is outside criticism of a corporation's hiring and firing practices, including working with Public Relations to help develop appropriate puff pieces.

Within the corporation, the Diversity Officer works with HR to develop plausible profiles for large layoffs. For example, if a company decides to dump older employees in Engineering, the Diversity Officer will work to find a statistical profile in the industry with a similar age and other 'protected class' content to the group being laid off, which will then be used to describe that group in the paperwork. If a similar class can't be found, the Diversity Officer suggests changes in 'the mix' to be laid off to match a usable industry-wide profile.

Yes, I know a few Diversity Officers. They sort of hate their jobs.


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Old 02-22-2015, 11:36 AM   #31
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About managers at megacorps having to do a lot of work, yes, they do, but it's mostly BS work. I think they create a lot of busy work for themselves, then pat themselves on the back for staying up late to get it done. Does the kind of work they do really improve the product, enhance the productivity, or simply to annoy and harass the employees?

I am speaking of megacorps in general. My 1st job out of school, the one I recall with fondness, was with a midsize but prominent aerospace company. We never did have meetings about the buzzwords du jour. We just tried hard to do our best, and took pride in our products. There was no meeting to remind employees of ethical conducts or integrity. It went without saying that falsifying records or stealing would result in termination and/or criminal prosecution. Didn't people learn that in grammar school? Adult workers did not have to be reminded of that in quarterly "training" classes.

After I left the company, it was bought out and changed hand a couple of times. A decade or two later, I ran across an employee newsletter that the new corp put out; it had an article about the new VP of Diversity. Good Grief! An entire office to promote diversity! I never noticed any outrageous racism or sexism at that old work place. What the hell happened?

PS. I encouraged my son to find a job with a mid-size company. I talk to him often about his work, how he interacts with his managers. I am glad that his work environment is just like my 1st job, where managers care about the company and their workers. They are quick to recognize and reward good workers. And recently my son's corp just gave an across-the-board raise, and also upped the 401k matching and bonus. Last but not least, my son is not subjected to BS and propaganda like I have seen at huge megacorps.
Good stuff for sure.

Then there is the whole manager vs. leader discussion which is another can of worms. I can find a way to finish my mandatory training on ethics without reminders every week when it's not due for 3 months

What I like a someone who can help me remove roadblocks when I've exhausted all other options. That is what I value and that is sometimes hard to find in "management".
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Old 02-22-2015, 02:01 PM   #32
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About managers at megacorps having to do a lot of work, yes, they do, but it's mostly BS work. I think they create a lot of busy work for themselves, then pat themselves on the back for staying up late to get it done. Does the kind of work they do really improve the product, enhance the productivity, or simply to annoy and harass the employees?
What I saw at megacorp was that a number of folks were unable to move up the technical ladder for assorted reasons. They either didn't have the technical skills, or drive to make hard decisions, or personality, or whatever. They would slide from job to job. Eventually, they did not move up the technical path, but they had this great background of many areas of the company. They slid into the 'management path'. At the same time, we had some very competent technical people that were moved into the management track. This pool of lower management was, in my mind, a general mess of humanity and waste of oxygen, with a few outstanding and capable individuals. Eventually, the truly superior folks would rise out of the swamp, and go on to lead the company.

I had great respect for the leaders that did emerge. The layer of management that was simply gathering data and writing reports about what other people were working on garnered very little respect. When financial times got tough, or they looked like they would not report record earnings, then corporate would open the drain and let the bottom of the sludge leave the company with incentives. They tried to structure the programs so that other folks were not eligible. In recent times we saw 4 to 6 programs where corporate departments were eligible, but never product engineering. If there was somebody on the engineering side that needed to be turned out, they would be moved to a factory, or corporate department. Eventually the opportunity would present itself and most of them would smile and leave.

I did very well where I was at. I delivered a lot of product design that made the company a lot of money. I would not have survived the time in the swamp kissin butt and schmoozin for a higher-up position. More money? Eventually. But you had to be smooth to get there.

It was interesting that the true leaders in the organization would corner you and ask about what was really going on. The layer of management sludge between them and the real world was quite effective at dressing up and spinning the stories.

In every large organization there exists a layer of management whose job it is to sanitize and control the information that moves upwards.
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Old 02-22-2015, 02:24 PM   #33
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I see your point although the bonus is paid in Feb of 2015 vs. 2014
No doubt was accrued into 2014 earnings. However, knowing that doesn't lessen the sting of a cut in bonus. Makes you want nothing more than to be free of megacorp once and for all.
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Old 02-22-2015, 03:06 PM   #34
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Lazy B

I worked for the "Lazy B" ranch early in my so-called career in a technical role. I sure don't remember a bonus, so you're already way ahead. In fact, engineering salaries were so pathetic then; there were few mid-level engineers around, they had left for greener pastures. I know I did.

But, let me tell you what I think is worse than "moving target - bonus goals" in a megacorp. It's become the new standard, by the way. You work in a decent division, reasonably well run, good products/people and 50%+ of your compensation, merit raises and bonuses are "tied to corporate performance. Usually, there's a "dog or two" division that their performance drags the whole corporation earnings down with them. Or, at least under the bonus cap. Usually, it's a "buggy whip" division, that is, one who's products and services have not been innovative or been improved over time. Mis-management at it's finest.

Case in point, in the 3rd to my last year of working, our division had record output, record profits and outstanding cost controls. All managed by a very hardworking and motivated workforce. Unfortunately, 50% of the bonus was tied to overall corporate profitability. The remaining 25% to local and 25% to personal achievement/goals. Even at record levels of effort, we received about 40% of our bonus target, which varied from 5-25% of salary dependent on your position. I received about 4.5% of final pay or so. In essence, for me, it worked out to about 1/2 of the minimum wage per hour. That is, if you are not counting the overtime. It was at that point, a "light" went "on" for me. I cut my hours back drastically, improved my health and tried not to stress about silly corporate goals and objectives. You know, do my job, do the time, but no more 50-60 hour weeks. Needless to say, today the company I worked for is much different, much less loyalty and personal drive. No one talks about it; but, 5:00pm comes and the place is a ghost town, now. I think it's the future. Business run by contract employees. We'll see how that works out.
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Old 02-22-2015, 07:52 PM   #35
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About managers at megacorps having to do a lot of work, yes, they do, but it's mostly BS work. I think they create a lot of busy work for themselves, then pat themselves on the back for staying up late to get it done. Does the kind of work they do really improve the product, enhance the productivity, or simply to annoy and harass the employees? ...
While I would say that your appraisal of managers at mega-corps is fairly accurate (at least IME), I'd say you are off-base in your analysis.

They don't create the BS/busy work, it is driven onto them from above. I would have loved to get a pass on the BS, and get home to my family on time, rather than 'pat myself on the back' for simply putting in more hours.

And we certainly could have been more productive and created more value w/o the BS work - I certainly wasn't kidding myself about that, I was fighting the BS work. And I certainly didn't want to annoy/harass my employees - it's so much better when you all work together towards a goal.

So why is BS work so typical in a Mega-Corp? Books have been written on the subject. It is kinda tough to treat everyone in a big group 'fairly', and you end up with a lot of bureaucracy and CYA and 'one size fits all' in the process. As much as it stinks, it is hard to avoid, I think. Good upper management can help minimize it, it grows like a weed with poor upper management.

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Old 02-24-2015, 04:41 PM   #36
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While I would say that your appraisal of managers at mega-corps is fairly accurate (at least IME), I'd say you are off-base in your analysis.

They don't create the BS/busy work, it is driven onto them from above. I would have loved to get a pass on the BS, and get home to my family on time, rather than 'pat myself on the back' for simply putting in more hours.

And we certainly could have been more productive and created more value w/o the BS work - I certainly wasn't kidding myself about that, I was fighting the BS work. And I certainly didn't want to annoy/harass my employees - it's so much better when you all work together towards a goal.

So why is BS work so typical in a Mega-Corp? Books have been written on the subject. It is kinda tough to treat everyone in a big group 'fairly', and you end up with a lot of bureaucracy and CYA and 'one size fits all' in the process. As much as it stinks, it is hard to avoid, I think. Good upper management can help minimize it, it grows like a weed with poor upper management.

-ERD50
I would call the mgmt work "different" vs. BS work. The expectations are high that you "lead" your group and also do day to day work if you are a 1st line manager in the office environment.

Many say the 1st line manager job is the most difficult since you're in meetings all day and once that is done there is admin stuff to get done.

Having said that they were just rewarded with a 12.5% bonus vs. their staff getting 4.8% (engineers, IT, finance, HR, etc).

2nd level is 17.5%
3rd level is 22.5%
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Old 02-26-2015, 06:46 AM   #37
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Yeah, but then you'd have to do all the stuff Boeing managers do. I tried that for a while and no thanks. Let them keep their 12 -22% so long as I can just quietly mess around in my lab.

In a more general sense I just can't get too upset at a company that's rewarded me pretty well over the years just because they've rewarded others even better.
Our megacorp rewards managers up to 50% bonus. Would I consider being one? No!!! A lot of young engineers do, however. It's very common that engineers work for a couple of years after graduation, obtain an MBA and get into management. More money or higher status seems irresistible for some.
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Old 02-26-2015, 04:08 PM   #38
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I've read the material and noticed the "if you are within 6 years of ER at 55 then certain benefits are enhanced" or something like that.

I can't find out the specifics however. Have you seen the details around being over 49 years old? Thanks!
In the Speea Contracts, look at Page B3 for the retirement health care after a layoff http://www.speea.org/Bargaining_Unit...tract_Prof.pdf

and this from speea:
What if I want to retire early after Iím laid off?
If you are age 49 at the time of layoff with at least 10 years of Boeing service, you will be able to retire at age 55 with the same reduction as those who retire from the active payroll (2% per year reduction under age 60). If you are under age 49 and retire at age 55, the reduction is significantly higher (6% per year under age 65). Before deciding, contact Total Access and request a retirement estimate based on your layoff date as the last date worked to find out what your benefit would be at age 55.
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Old 02-26-2015, 04:20 PM   #39
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God bless America. I am trying to figure out how I can retire at 33 on 100k. American companies sadden me. Work salary so we can extract every hour out of you and you don't have time to prepare your own meals or perform your own home tasks so you spend more money paying someone else to do it (stimulating the economy). Most companies are morally and ethically bankrupt.
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:11 PM   #40
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God bless America. I am trying to figure out how I can retire at 33 on 100k. American companies sadden me. Work salary so we can extract every hour out of you and you don't have time to prepare your own meals or perform your own home tasks so you spend more money paying someone else to do it (stimulating the economy). Most companies are morally and ethically bankrupt.
There are worse companies in other countries.
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