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Old 11-04-2015, 10:38 AM   #81
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P2P is way off topic, so you can search the forum for "P2P" and "Lending Tree" to see the many threads on it in the past. I recall one whose discussions did not end well.
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Old 11-04-2015, 10:53 AM   #82
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And even then, I can still enjoy life like so many boondocking RV'ers whose blogs I have read.
Like the old saying - Freedom is low overhead. Our plan B is to downsize to a condo in a retirement village. Plan C is solar cabin guy -

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Old 11-04-2015, 11:09 AM   #83
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All right! I think happiness is mostly a state of mind, and that once one has a full stomach and is out of the cold, the rest is not essential.

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That's a good question. I was wondering how well his forecasts of expected returns have been doing since he's been making them for some time. A brief search turned up:

http://johncbogle.com/wordpress/wp-c...ds-14-2015.pdf

See slide 19

Basically he claims an R^2 of 0.65 on 10 year returns. This is actually much better forecast than I would have guessed since it's significantly better than PE10 (going by my memory PE10 has R^2 of somewhere around 0.4 to 0.5)...
I do not understand this data. Has Bogle been making annual predictions and is now scoring the result? I believe he does not make short-term predictions, the same way Buffett does not.

Anyway, I think Bogle is trying to reduce expectations because many pension funds are still using high returns in their planning. Now, that is going to hurt, compared to individuals like us who can manage to cut back our spending if it does not work out as well as we thought.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:34 AM   #84
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For as long as I can remember, Bogle has been estimating the long term returns of stocks as the sum of dividend yield + earnings growth + change in PE ratio (may be positive or negative). I'd assume that since the slide deck is his own, that he considers 10 years to be a reasonable long-term holding period (instead of short term).

But I have no idea of whether his chart is based on the prediction he made in those past years (i.e. what he actually said in 1990 etc.) or if he just took his formula and applied it to historical data. Also it's unclear what he used for the change in PE ratio (speculative return as he calls it). I think I've seen him plug in various values which vary from a partial to complete reversion to the historical mean.

Perhaps somebody who reads his books / attended his talks might know the answer here.
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:53 PM   #85
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Bogle is not really my hero.
Well, we can debate about definitions, but that guy has made great contributions to the happiness and financial security an awful lot of people. And he's had a big hand in changing the culture of an entire industry in a way that benefits a lot of folks, at the detriment to his own wealth. I don't know what the popular cutoff line for "hero" is, but there seem to be a lot of "heroes" in the public media who have contributed less to the well being of others than Jack Bogle.
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Old 11-04-2015, 02:31 PM   #86
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Well, we can debate about definitions, but that guy has made great contributions to the happiness and financial security an awful lot of people. And he's had a big hand in changing the culture of an entire industry in a way that benefits a lot of folks, at the detriment to his own wealth. I don't know what the popular cutoff line for "hero" is, but there seem to be a lot of "heroes" in the public media who have contributed less to the well being of others than Jack Bogle.
+1 Bogle has saved average investors, like me, billions.

But Kim Kardashian is my real hero.
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Old 11-04-2015, 03:04 PM   #87
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If not then...then the next 20 months. Or maybe in the next five years or....
Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not a Dent supporter. He is a classic fear monger. What I should have included in my comment...

If his research is factual and true... he makes a good argument

And you are correct... whether its the next 20 months or the next this the next that...

Dent will continue to cry wolf and if there is another major correction at any time in the future he will claim he predicted it with exacting accuracy.
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Old 11-04-2015, 03:13 PM   #88
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+1 Bogle has saved average investors, like me, billions.

But Kim Kardashian is my real hero.

Heroine. Lol. You've managed to bring together two icons in a meaningful way.
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Old 11-04-2015, 03:13 PM   #89
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Have no idea whether he is right or wrong but what strikes me is how we are always searching for the oracle, the wizard, the old wise one with the answers. Even though he has built his company on the premise that no one can predict the future, which company, which sector, etc. will do best, we still ask him to predict the future. Just seems a little strange to me.

Now there is no argument from me that we should prepare expecting the worst, and maybe be pleasantly surprised when things turn out better than expected. His arguments make sense, but one could equally make the argument with so much of the world exiting poverty and becoming consumers, and with unprecedented productivity potential (think robotic cars, manufacturing automation) and with all the potential of new discoveries (Recombinant DNA, medical advances, etc.) that we equally have the potential for profound growth.

I have great respect for Bogel and what he has done almost single-handedly to improve the investment options for normal people, but sometimes I think, we expect a little too much from our heroes.
Brilliant post. Just one more drop in a sea of forecasts. An opinion for every bias.
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Old 11-04-2015, 03:50 PM   #90
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Some of this both in the US and Europe has been caused by outsourcing production to cheaper countries like China and India. Now I'm reading about production costs in China going up quite a bit thanks to higher wages and other issues. And an old colleague of mine spoke of increasing cost of outsourcing to India.

So what would it take for companies to start moving factories back home? How far are we from this scenario? It would create an increased demand for labourers in US and Europe. Eventually wages would go up and then interest rates?

But like many of you say - nobody knows.
Some manufacturing has moved back to the United States in the South but workers are not really getting a true living wage.

H-1B guest visa tech workers are another fun issue for outsourced American tech workers. I have about 200 H-1B tech workers in my neighboring communities and these foreigners have about 3 families living in 500k to 800k Mcmansions. The home builder told me that one group from India wanted to reserve and buy one whole phase of his new subdivision.

It would appear that Companies are doing anything and everything to keep wages very low. You can't beat the big money.
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Old 11-04-2015, 06:58 PM   #91
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Well, we can debate about definitions, but that guy has made great contributions to the happiness and financial security an awful lot of people. And he's had a big hand in changing the culture of an entire industry in a way that benefits a lot of folks, at the detriment to his own wealth. I don't know what the popular cutoff line for "hero" is, but there seem to be a lot of "heroes" in the public media who have contributed less to the well being of others than Jack Bogle.
Bogle certainly has done a great service for small individual investors, and if he were a Brit national would have been knighted long ago.

A definition of "hero": a person or character who, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, displays courage, bravery or self-sacrifice—that is, heroism—for some greater good; a man or woman of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his or her brave deeds and noble qualities.

There are many individuals whose works in science or medicine have greatly helped humanity. Same as Bogle, they are well compensated for their work, both by financial rewards and gratifying accolades. These great contributors do not act purely out of altruism. I do not think that they are heroes, let alone various sport players that are revered by the media.

I guess I may like Bogle more if his position were less rigid; I have the impression from his ardent followers that they claim the only road to financial nirvana is via indexing. Being a skeptic, I do not believe in anything absolute in life.

And about sainthood, even the Catholic Church starts the canonization only after a person has died. A humble person would not let his followers call him a saint.
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Old 11-04-2015, 07:45 PM   #92
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...
It would appear that Companies are doing anything and everything to keep wages very low. ...
Yep, Companies try to get the most value for their dollar - just like you and me!

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You can't beat the big money.
Well, I can recall when there was high demand for tech skills, people were 'job hopping' for 20% increases, companies would train anyone who showed some proficiency with computers. So I would not say "you can't beat big money", I'd say you can't beat supply and demand.

And sometimes, the 'big-money' unions do influence supply and demand.

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Old 11-04-2015, 08:19 PM   #93
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Please don't misunderstand me... I'm not a Dent supporter. He is a classic fear monger. What I should have included in my comment...

If his research is factual and true... he makes a good argument

And you are correct... whether its the next 20 months or the next this the next that...

Dent will continue to cry wolf and if there is another major correction at any time in the future he will claim he predicted it with exacting accuracy.
He has been spectacularly wrong in the past.....
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:24 PM   #94
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These great contributors do not act purely out of altruism.
I think that is one of Zvi Bodie's points on why we rarely hear individual iBonds or TIPS mentioned by mutual fund representatives. They are not going to advocate anything they do not sell and make money from. I always thought of John Bogle as a high level salesman. There is nothing wrong with salespeople of course, but their job is to sell their company's products, not give customers all the relevant facts or tell customers when a competitor product may be a better fit for their needs.
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Bogle's 10-Year Forecast
Old 11-04-2015, 09:43 PM   #95
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Bogle's 10-Year Forecast

Schroedenger's cat.

{the writer of this post does not support animal cruelty to test market hypothesis'}

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Old 11-04-2015, 10:53 PM   #96
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Yep, Companies try to get the most value for their dollar - just like you and me!



Well, I can recall when there was high demand for tech skills, people were 'job hopping' for 20% increases, companies would train anyone who showed some proficiency with computers. So I would not say "you can't beat big money", I'd say you can't beat supply and demand.

And sometimes, the 'big-money' unions do influence supply and demand.

-ERD50
So you are personally spending billions to influence the flow of H-1B visa tech workers to outsource American workers? WOW! Thats out of my reach.

I guess with so much cheap labor willing and able to come to America using the H-1B visas, supply will never be an issue. Thats big money controlling the supply and demand.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:37 PM   #97
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I have great respect for Jack Bogle but I'm not sure I'll postpone my retirement plans based on his gloomy stock return forecast. The level in my BS bucket is as much a driver as are the dollars in the retirement accounts. I admit I wish this was Jim Cramer's opinion we were discussing, I could use a good laugh.
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Old 11-05-2015, 12:17 AM   #98
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The thing is... In this interview he's being ASKED his OPINION on what will happen which he gives with lots of caveats .

Separately he says "but you have to take what the market gives" so he certainly doenst suggest trying to time anything from what I can see

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Old 11-05-2015, 07:56 AM   #99
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I don't know if your early retired or not but if you are you sure looked out much further than 10 years with your prediction
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And you don't do forecasts about your retirement?
Old 11-05-2015, 08:00 AM   #100
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And you don't do forecasts about your retirement?

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I am of the mind that the real dumb person is the one who is making a 10 year forecast. A bit ashamed of Bogle here. Maybe early onset something?
?
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