Join Early Retirement Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 04-12-2011, 04:13 PM   #201
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by rescueme View Post
I believe the blowback you are getting is from the idea that you are walking away from a debt commitment that you made - which in the other government programs you mentioned are not the case, and you profited from that action, beyond the original intent of the program.

It's similar to walking away from a note/mortgage on a home you purchased "just because you can", even though you may be able to continue to make the payments and the home continues to meet yours and your family’s needs.
I am still agreeing to pay my loan for 25 years pursuant to the Income Based Repayment program. I think the appropriate analogy is not walking away from a mortgage note, but rather entering into one of the Making Homes Affordable loan mod programs where they drastically reduce your interest rate and/or chip in a little principal money. I mean, I'll still pay something on my loans. Just probably not the full amount, and certainly not on the current payment schedule.

I mean, why are we even arguing? It is only six figures of debt we are talking about here. What's a hundred thousand(s) among friends? Our country spends billions every day and I don't really know where any of it goes. I just want my share of the largess.

After all, we have fulfilled the societal goal of a well educated citizenry, hence no one can complain too much that the taxpayers are paying for my student loans. (ok, tongue out of cheek!)
__________________

__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is online now  
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-12-2011, 04:23 PM   #202
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Keim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
I mean, I really really want to repay the debt, but I don't want to work an extra 6-12 months to do so. Especially since I have found a government program that will allow me to pursue my dreams without repaying my loans in full!
To each his own, I suppose. For me retiring slightly earlier would not be worth my sense of honor and dignity.

But you are correct, it is the system at fault. There are ways to play games.
__________________

__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
Keim is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 04:29 PM   #203
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keim View Post
To each his own, I suppose. For me retiring slightly earlier would not be worth my sense of honor and dignity.

But you are correct, it is the system at fault. There are ways to play games.
I just don't see participation in a government program open to anyone as losing my honor or dignity. I try to avoid paying income taxes as much as possible, an honorable pursuit I think most here on this forum join me in, particularly at this time of year. Depriving the government of tax revenue or requiring them to expend funds for student loan forgiveness is equally (dis)honorable in my book, dollar for dollar.

But hey, to each his own.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 04:32 PM   #204
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Keim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
Anybody here do Cash for Clunkers? Anybody get tax credits for energy efficiency home improvements or hybrid/electric car purchases? Anybody get the Homebuyer's tax credit? Anybody ever send their kids to state universities when they could afford to pay full price at private schools? Anybody ever file for social security benefits or medicare benefits even though they have ample income to support themselves in perpetuity?

Because I would certainly hope that members of a forum, the majority of which are millionaires, would not take advantage of government programs unless they really needed them.
I don't see the comparison, Fuego. The above were designed to meet specific purposes. As long as people meet those purposes, they do nothing wrong.

The program you utilized was also designed to meet a purpose. And you agreed to participate in it with certain terms and agreements lined out. You are now planning to get out of doing what you agreed to do.

Perhaps a better comparison would be to ask if anyone had taken advantage of need based scholarships by incorrectly demonstrating their need. That would be closer to representing the manipulation you are writing about.
__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
Keim is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 04:35 PM   #205
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Keim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,128
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
I just don't see participation in a government program open to anyone as losing my honor or dignity. I try to avoid paying income taxes as much as possible, an honorable pursuit I think most here on this forum join me in, particularly at this time of year. Depriving the government of tax revenue or requiring them to expend funds for student loan forgiveness is equally (dis)honorable in my book, dollar for dollar.

But hey, to each his own.
I don't find participation in such a program beneath my dignity. Manipulation is.
__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
Keim is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 05:08 PM   #206
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
grasshopper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,671
Just wait your house and yard will be tp'ed with all missing TP.
__________________
grasshopper is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 05:45 PM   #207
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Amethyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,899
Heavens. I thought I was obsessive about tracking, but it never occurred to me to track TP as a separate expense! TP is part of "groceries."

We used to have a cat who regularly shredded whole rolls of TP, on or off the roller. (He was a dear, good cat, otherwise). Would you have advised counting his hobby as TP, or as "pet expense"?

Amethyst


Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
288 rolls of TP in 7 months? That's more than a roll a day! If it was me, I'd call a family meeting....
__________________
If you understood everything I say, you'd be me ~ Miles Davis
'There is only one success to be able to spend your life in your own way. Christopher Morley.
Amethyst is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 06:14 PM   #208
Recycles dryer sheets
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingB View Post
Since you are already tracking the number of gallons that you are using, go a step further and track your gas mileage (mpg) and cost per mile driven. You need to note your odometer reading when you gas up.
Good idea!
__________________
LauAnn is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 06:31 PM   #209
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
Heavens. I thought I was obsessive about tracking, but it never occurred to me to track TP as a separate expense! TP is part of "groceries."

We used to have a cat who regularly shredded whole rolls of TP, on or off the roller. (He was a dear, good cat, otherwise). Would you have advised counting his hobby as TP, or as "pet expense"?

Amethyst
I bought the 288 rolls at one time from amazon dot com. For $36. Back in Sept 2010. We are still using the rolls but they are almost all gone. That's how I know how much we use! I would never be anal enough to track TP as a separate expense...
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 06:36 PM   #210
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keim View Post
I don't see the comparison, Fuego. The above were designed to meet specific purposes. As long as people meet those purposes, they do nothing wrong.

The program you utilized was also designed to meet a purpose. And you agreed to participate in it with certain terms and agreements lined out. You are now planning to get out of doing what you agreed to do.

Perhaps a better comparison would be to ask if anyone had taken advantage of need based scholarships by incorrectly demonstrating their need. That would be closer to representing the manipulation you are writing about.
I'm not manipulating anything. My taxable income will shrink when I ER - there is nothing I can do about that. I make a bunch more than I spend. I intend to withdraw money and realize income in quantities sufficient to enable my spending during ER. I may do a little planning to optimize my withdrawals to minimize taxes. The income based repayment plan has me pay on my loans based on my taxable income over a certain amount. I am meticulous about proper reporting on my income tax forms (I don't like federal prison). I am not doing anything illegal.

Taking advantage of need based scholarships by lying or misrepresenting yourself is fraud. No ifs ands or buts. I am simply reporting my taxable income and having my student loan payments modified based on my income, including reduced to zero if my income doesn't exceed certain thresholds. To equate that to purposeful misrepresentation and fraud is ridiculous.

Would my perceived evil be tempered if I told you, in addition to planning on being an artist/writer/poet, that I intend to volunteer lots of time helping inner city and immigrant youth and developing infrastructure in some developing countries. The money that I save from the student loan forgiveness would be put to use in these endeavors. Does that make a difference? Not saying I will do that, but I'm not saying I won't either.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 06:47 PM   #211
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,896
The land we live in (US) is in the land of the law first and morality second. Not saying that I totally agree with the approach.

In a way, it's sort of like this couple I knew who had filed for bankruptcy. Yet before they did this, they racked up a nice wedding dress and other expenses. Don't know the exact timing of when that's okay, when not, but in their case when the creditors came knocking...they pretty much told them to talk to their lawyer. Eventually, they negotiated a much lower payoff on the debt and just paid say about $1000 instead of $10,000. Illegal? No. Immoral or good strategy? You be the judge.
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 06:57 PM   #212
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2R View Post
Does all this TP have an adverse effect on your home's plumbing? Do you get a lot of stoppages? Just honestly curious about how these things work...
As far as I can tell, no. Not in doses less than 50 sheets at a time.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:02 PM   #213
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 7,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by easysurfer View Post
The land we live in (US) is in the land of the law first and morality second. Not saying that I totally agree with the approach.

In a way, it's sort of like this couple I knew who had filed for bankruptcy. Yet before they did this, they racked up a nice wedding dress and other expenses. Don't know the exact timing of when that's okay, when not, but in their case when the creditors came knocking...they pretty much told them to talk to their lawyer. Eventually, they negotiated a much lower payoff on the debt and just paid say about $1000 instead of $10,000. Illegal? No. Immoral or good strategy? You be the judge.
I follow the law. Trying to read moral intent into laws passed by politicians is challenging.

My proposal in another thread to go back to grad school just to get another couple hundred thousand in student loans, THEN not repay them would be akin to the bankruptcy situation you discuss, since I would go into it not planning on repaying it. When DW and I contracted this student loan debt starting in 1996, we both fully planned on paying it all back. We still do, subject to the income based repayment provisions (which will likely forgive most of it). But if those rules change and we end up paying it all back over time, I am completely ok with that. We did agree to pay the debt after all.
__________________
Retired in 2013 at age 33. Keeping busy reading, blogging, relaxing, gaming, and enjoying the outdoors with my wife and 3 kids (5, 11, and 12).
FUEGO is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:03 PM   #214
Administrator
W2R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 38,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
As far as I can tell, no. Not in doses less than 50 sheets at a time.
Thanks. That is good to know.
__________________
Already we are boldly launched upon the deep; but soon we shall be lost in its unshored, harbourless immensities.

- - H. Melville, 1851
W2R is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:13 PM   #215
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
easysurfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
I follow the law. Trying to read moral intent into laws passed by politicians is challenging.

My proposal in another thread to go back to grad school just to get another couple hundred thousand in student loans, THEN not repay them would be akin to the bankruptcy situation you discuss, since I would go into it not planning on repaying it. When DW and I contracted this student loan debt starting in 1996, we both fully planned on paying it all back. We still do, subject to the income based repayment provisions (which will likely forgive most of it). But if those rules change and we end up paying it all back over time, I am completely ok with that. We did agree to pay the debt after all.
I dunno. Going back to the bankruptcy situation. They did make the mimimum payments so legally there was "intent" to pay before filing bankruptcy. Yet at the same time..all I can say is I'm glad it wasn't me. Actually, now that I remember, it was a wedding ring instead of a wedding dress...if that makes a difference. I would have just got a cheaper ring instead. I have too weak a conscience.
__________________
Have you ever seen a headstone with these words
"If only I had spent more time at work" ... from "Busy Man" sung by Billy Ray Cyrus
easysurfer is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 07:37 PM   #216
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
NW-Bound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 19,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
Agreed. I personally think the policy is ridiculous that we can borrow hundreds of thousands and not worry a whole heck of a lot about ever repaying it. But thems the breaks, and this is one of the very few social welfare benefits that I can take advantage of.

I will say that I invested a significant portion of the student loan borrowing over the 2001-2006 period, so that has probably produced positive returns by now (versus carrying costs of under 1%, all tax deductible).
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
You can call it whatever you want. Letter, spirit, etc. Law does not imply morality.

...This is America!

Proud? I guess I'm happy that I finally get some payola from some crazy government program. I doubt I'll get much out of other social programs I'm currently paying for (medicare, SS particularly). So I'm just gettin mine while the getting is good. I am most certainly not proud of our system that leaks money like a sieve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
I follow the law. Trying to read moral intent into laws passed by politicians is challenging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
Anybody here do Cash for Clunkers? Anybody get tax credits for energy efficiency home improvements or hybrid/electric car purchases? Anybody get the Homebuyer's tax credit? Anybody ever send their kids to state universities when they could afford to pay full price at private schools? Anybody ever file for social security benefits or medicare benefits even though they have ample income to support themselves in perpetuity?

Because I would certainly hope that members of a forum, the majority of which are millionaires, would not take advantage of government programs unless they really needed them.
Same as many here I would not do what you are about to do. It just did not feel right. But I can see your points about taking advantage of whatever the system is offering you.

Yes, we all take the tax deductions and credits that we are eligible to take. When my father was hospitalized, my mother spent a lot of time arguing with the Medicare case worker to get my father whatever treatments that she could get. I am sure that people who were not so persistent would get less.

Perhaps my closest friend who is an ardent libertarian is right after all. Left alone, people would know how to take care of themselves. Most people are not stupid. Who are we to say who needs or deserves more help than some others? In the spirit of leveling the playing field so to speak, we are actually creating other perceived unfairnesses. I said "perceived" because as you said, how can we ever agree to the basic definition of fairness?

I also admire your frankness. Here to your ER plan.
__________________
"Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man" -- Leon Trotsky
NW-Bound is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 08:42 PM   #217
Recycles dryer sheets
Packman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 303
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
My federal student loans qualify for debt forgiveness. I think private loans and some other types of federal loans (parent PLUS loans??) don't qualify. And my government employment qualifies. Or at least it seems to qualify. There is no way of knowing until 10 years later per the current rules.
Isn't debt forgiveness considered taxable income?
__________________
Retired on 5/31/2011 at 54
Packman is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 09:44 PM   #218
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Keim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,128
Easy, Fuego. I don't perceive you as evil or even wrong. You are simply making a choice that is different from what I would decide. Ultimately you are the one that has to be able to sleep at night.

It is the system I think is wrong, and easily manipulated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
I'm not manipulating anything. My taxable income will shrink when I ER - there is nothing I can do about that. I make a bunch more than I spend. I intend to withdraw money and realize income in quantities sufficient to enable my spending during ER. I may do a little planning to optimize my withdrawals to minimize taxes. The income based repayment plan has me pay on my loans based on my taxable income over a certain amount. I am meticulous about proper reporting on my income tax forms (I don't like federal prison). I am not doing anything illegal.

Taking advantage of need based scholarships by lying or misrepresenting yourself is fraud. No ifs ands or buts. I am simply reporting my taxable income and having my student loan payments modified based on my income, including reduced to zero if my income doesn't exceed certain thresholds. To equate that to purposeful misrepresentation and fraud is ridiculous.

Would my perceived evil be tempered if I told you, in addition to planning on being an artist/writer/poet, that I intend to volunteer lots of time helping inner city and immigrant youth and developing infrastructure in some developing countries. The money that I save from the student loan forgiveness would be put to use in these endeavors. Does that make a difference? Not saying I will do that, but I'm not saying I won't either.
__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
Keim is offline  
Old 04-12-2011, 10:01 PM   #219
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,288
Quote:
Originally Posted by FUEGO View Post
Anybody here do Cash for Clunkers? Anybody get tax credits for energy efficiency home improvements or hybrid/electric car purchases? ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keim View Post
I don't see the comparison, Fuego. The above were designed to meet specific purposes. As long as people meet those purposes, they do nothing wrong. ...
I've not read every post in this thread, but there are many examples of people meeting the letter of the law on those programs "designed to meet specific purposes", yet they didn't meet the spirit of the law (if there is such a thing).

Take Cash for Clunkers - A person with an old gas guzzler was looking to buy a new, small car anyway. So they give up their old gas guzzler for the "Cash for Clunkers" even though they were going to buy that new car anyhow. Then they buy a gas guzzler to replace the one they had (maybe they need a big vehicle to haul things). Maybe the old gas guzzler was only driven 2,000 miles a year, they only used it when they needed to haul stuff. And the new "efficient" car is driven 12,000 miles a year - which one uses more gasoline?

edit/add: Or the neighbor that gets an "energy credit" for a new efficient furnace (one that needed replacing anyway), yet, they turn the thermostat higher/lower than I would and use more energy than I do with my older, marginally less efficient furnace/AC? What's right about that? Or they buy an EV in an area that gets it's electric power from coal - which can end up creating more pollution than the 'bad, old' Internal Combusion Engine?

Again, I have not read every post, but it appears that FUEGO met the letter of the law. So give him a break and blame Congress for all this needless manipulation instead. These are not "unintended consequences", they ARE the consequences of passing "one size fits all" legislation. You either accept that there will be outlier 'violations', or you say that Congress should drop all this manipulation - OK, one more option, Congress writes perfectly effective laws, but that's not gonna happen.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is online now  
Old 04-12-2011, 10:06 PM   #220
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Keim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Moscow
Posts: 1,128
SO true, Ha.
__________________

__________________
You can't enlighten the unconscious.
But you can hit'em upside the head a few times to make sure they are really out...
Keim is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
budget, expense, track


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What budgeting tools and methodology do you use? ProspectiveBum FIRE and Money 61 08-31-2009 11:16 PM
Simple Expense Tracking kjpliny FIRE and Money 10 10-11-2007 05:24 PM
Drugstore.com offers eligible HSA expense tracking... mykidslovedogs Health and Early Retirement 1 08-16-2007 11:30 AM
budgeting for deductibles lazygood4nothinbum FIRE and Money 11 06-21-2007 02:37 PM
Budgeting for and during ER wildcat Other topics 64 06-10-2005 05:09 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:50 PM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.