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Old 10-07-2015, 03:24 PM   #501
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This US bank, First Niagra, is issuing chip & PIN:

New York Bank Believes Americans Can Remember a PIN | NACS Online – News & Media Center – News Archive

But PIN will only work if terminal is equipped to handle such.

It will take the US several years, but I predict by 2020 chip & PIN will predominate here too.
If terminals will accept debit cards they should handle PINs.
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:14 PM   #502
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Bank Bets You Can Remember Another PIN

A regional bank in upstate New York is challenging the industry belief that American credit-card users cant deal with one more thing to remember.


The way I understand it, CC fraud from lost or stolen physical cards is comparatively low, so the US CC issuers don't see the pin as bringing much value as it only prevents fraud when someone is trying to use a stolen card at a physical POS terminal. Heck, the big box stores don't bother making you sign for anything under ~$50 now, and I don't see that changing even if our cards had pins.

The value of the chip is that it makes it much harder for hackers to make physical cards from stolen CC data. At least that was the claim of the news story I heard.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:59 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by NoiseBoy View Post
Bank Bets You Can Remember Another PIN

A regional bank in upstate New York is challenging the industry belief that American credit-card users cant deal with one more thing to remember.


The way I understand it, CC fraud from lost or stolen physical cards is comparatively low, so the US CC issuers don't see the pin as bringing much value as it only prevents fraud when someone is trying to use a stolen card at a physical POS terminal. Heck, the big box stores don't bother making you sign for anything under ~$50 now, and I don't see that changing even if our cards had pins.

The value of the chip is that it makes it much harder for hackers to make physical cards from stolen CC data. At least that was the claim of the news story I heard.
That seems to be the argument from the US issuing banks, although having a PIN would make a counterfeited physical card much harder to use.

But there is still a big hole - internet shopping. I don't know how it works in Europe, but obviously in the US all you need is the card credentials to order stuff and there is no place to enter and verify the card PIN. The fraudulent charges I saw using my compromised (but never physically stolen) card looked like they were ordering stuff from mail order places - a chip doesn't protect you from those "card not present" fraudulent transactions. At least in one case I had a card with a chip compromised this way, so the chip didn't make a difference in terms of someone being able to use it for online ordering.

Another thing in Europe - the card does not leave your presence. A terminal is brought to the table, or you go up to a counter and put the card in the terminal. There is no opportunity for someone to take your card and swipe it somewhere.

We are far away from that still in the US when it comes to restaurants and any other counter that takes your card from you instead of having you swipe (or insert) your own card.

I kind of get the impression that US banks/issuers and retailers have to do things the hard way and the whole process of moving towards truly more secure CC transactions will be very, very slow.
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Old 10-07-2015, 07:48 PM   #504
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That seems to be the argument from the US issuing banks, although having a PIN would make a counterfeited physical card much harder to use.

But there is still a big hole - internet shopping. I don't know how it works in Europe, but obviously in the US all you need is the card credentials to order stuff and there is no place to enter and verify the card PIN. The fraudulent charges I saw using my compromised (but never physically stolen) card looked like they were ordering stuff from mail order places - a chip doesn't protect you from those "card not present" fraudulent transactions. At least in one case I had a card with a chip compromised this way, so the chip didn't make a difference in terms of someone being able to use it for online ordering.

Another thing in Europe - the card does not leave your presence. A terminal is brought to the table, or you go up to a counter and put the card in the terminal. There is no opportunity for someone to take your card and swipe it somewhere.

We are far away from that still in the US when it comes to restaurants and any other counter that takes your card from you instead of having you swipe (or insert) your own card.

I kind of get the impression that US banks/issuers and retailers have to do things the hard way and the whole process of moving towards truly more secure CC transactions will be very, very slow.
The issue of taking the card depends on how the restaraunt is set up at many I frequent the bill is taken to the counter to pay. (Saves the wait staff worrring about this). Or one can see the way Chilli's does it by putting the device on each table (also able to sell games on the device as well)
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:02 PM   #505
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The issue of taking the card depends on how the restaraunt is set up at many I frequent the bill is taken to the counter to pay. (Saves the wait staff worrring about this). Or one can see the way Chilli's does it by putting the device on each table (also able to sell games on the device as well)
Many of the restaurants around here and in large cities I visit the waiter takes the card from the customer over to an area that is away from customer access. I would like to see this change.
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:13 PM   #506
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Many of the restaurants around here and in large cities I visit the waiter takes the card from the customer over to an area that is away from customer access. I would like to see this change.
I live in a town of 20k and it varies. Now of course the Chilli's model could come and make more sense, as well as a way to get additional money. (It is the more casual places that use the cashier model BTW.) It must be a perception issue, because if you think about it just dropping the check off and letting the customer pay does save staff time. (2 round trips to the table)
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:22 PM   #507
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I live in a town of 20k and it varies. Now of course the Chilli's model could come and make more sense, as well as a way to get additional money. (It is the more casual places that use the cashier model BTW.) It must be a perception issue, because if you think about it just dropping the check off and letting the customer pay does save staff time. (2 round trips to the table)
Sure, but in larger cities with lots of major chain restaurants, especially the higher end ones, the check is brought to the table and the credit card taken. It's considered part of the service - they aren't trying to save staff time, they are instead not requiring the customer to walk to a register. It would be nice for them to bring a terminal to the table instead like they do in Europe.
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Old 10-07-2015, 09:54 PM   #508
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Many of the restaurants around here and in large cities I visit the waiter takes the card from the customer over to an area that is away from customer access. I would like to see this change.
You can change it yourself. Before we had POS terminals brought to the table, I customarily went to the cash desk to pay my bill.
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Old 10-08-2015, 12:11 PM   #509
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Had no problem with our PINed CCs in Italy as all restaurants accept them (and hotels, stores and supermarkets). Had a problem with one sidewalk cafe that tried my card with its wireless handheld repeatedly and caused my PIN to be locked. I used DW partner card successfully (after they changed the battery) but could not get a new PIN accepted out of country for mine. It needed an approved device the first time the new PIN was used and they are not available in Europe. Chase Visa.
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Old 10-08-2015, 12:36 PM   #510
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Returned from Germany recently. Brought my chip and pin Captial one but forgot my pin!
Never had an issue, just signed at all locations where cards were accepted.
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Old 10-08-2015, 12:50 PM   #511
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Returned from Germany recently. Brought my chip and pin Captial one but forgot my pin!
Never had an issue, just signed at all locations where cards were accepted.
Capital One doesn't issue chip and PIN cards, so it wouldn't have made any difference.

Any PIN they gave you was only for cash advances which are quite expensive.
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Old 10-08-2015, 03:12 PM   #512
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Do not mean to be disagreeable but they do:

About Credit Card Chip Technology and PINs | Capital One Canada

American Express does not yet.
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Old 10-08-2015, 03:16 PM   #513
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But another page indicates they are doing chip and signature. I was told my was chip and pin but you may be right Audrey. Confusing.

http://www.capitalone.com/credit-cards/chip-cards/
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Old 10-08-2015, 04:14 PM   #514
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The first link went to Capital One in Canada. There, it will be true chip and PIN. The second link is to a US site, chip and signature.
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Old 10-10-2015, 07:39 AM   #515
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But another page indicates they are doing chip and signature. I was told my was chip and pin but you may be right Audrey. Confusing.

Chip Technology Overview | Capital One
Right - not in the U.S.. Customer service people are easily confused about this. I'm not surprised they do so in Canada - chip and PIN is heavily used there.

My original post should have specified "in the U.S." . Barclays is the only bank I'm aware of issuing chip and PIN cards in the U.S.. All the others are credit unions.
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Old 10-11-2015, 08:20 AM   #516
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We will not let our cards out of our sight.

Here in Canada, when I use the card in a restaurant, the server brings a portable, wireless device to the table. We paid cash for our meals in Greece last month but I do seem to recall seeing a server bring one of these portable devices to another table. When we are travelling in Europe it is not uncommon for us to have to go into the office of a small hotel or family lodge in order to input the pin etc. It is different in large hotels where the devices are on the service counter.
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Old 10-11-2015, 10:39 AM   #517
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Right - not in the U.S.. Customer service people are easily confused about this. I'm not surprised they do so in Canada - chip and PIN is heavily used there.

My original post should have specified "in the U.S." . Barclays is the only bank I'm aware of issuing chip and PIN cards in the U.S.. All the others are credit unions.
In Mexico, restaurants use PIN and signature. I suppose the extra care gives us more protection.
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Old 10-11-2015, 11:33 AM   #518
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In Greece this past month many smaller hotels where we used chip and pin also wanted a signature on their merchant copy printout.


The smallest mom and pop place we stayed had the chip 'tap' technology device. No need to insert the card or punch in the PIN. Just tapped the device with the top of our card and voila...it was fait accompli.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:12 AM   #519
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The tap technology has limits for us, usually below $100. I use it once in a while, usually at the drug store.
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Old 05-05-2016, 12:43 PM   #520
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Just returned from chipping, pinning and tapping my way around Europe with my Canadian TD Infinite Visa. Extremely user friendly, apparently identical systems.
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