Chip and PIN credit cards for Europe

[COcheesehead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FUEGO How common are tolls? We'll be driving in Slovenia (no tolls I think, just have to buy a highway carnet/pass), Salzburg+Hallstatt Austria (highway pass required) and Germany (no clue here - we'll be around Munich/Bavaria after Austria). And how common are attendant-less gas stations? Mostly day time driving for us.

We drove through southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland and France and encountered not a lot of tolls, but at least a few. Some longer tunnels had tolls and there was a least a handful of tolls in Austria.

[audreyh1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcowan Most places will add the amount of the tip to the total before processing it.

I never saw that in Europe.

[kcowan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 I never saw that in Europe.

The customer has to request it. It saves keeping a pocket full of change.

[rodi]

Smart move on skipping Lago di Garda in favor of Venezia... Lago di Garda is beautiful. (My BFF lived in Verona and worked 1/2 mile from the lake for 3 years.) But Venice is exceptional. Since you'll (presumably) be taking the train in - catch the Vaporetto outside the train station to get to your lodgings... It's a water bus... but just as fun as a water taxi... Still expensive but not in the $100 range a water taxi will charge you.

+1 on the advice to make sure the vendor selects for you to pay in local currency... It costs more if they convert it to dollars at their end, vs when it's reconciled (where you'll get the bank rate vs a premium/fee exchange rate.)

We always had some cash on us - it's nice to pay for gelato and smaller purchases in cash.

Advice for travelling with kids... You can get a lot of cooperation with touring "boring" stuff or walking further than they want if they know there is a gelato at the end of the boring activity. My then 4 and 6 year old boys put up with the Vatican museum and Sistine Chapel with the promise of gelato. (And a promise that I would consider letting them paint murals on their wall like the chapel - except in a super mario theme. LOL).

[FUEGO]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodi Smart move on skipping Lago di Garda in favor of Venezia... Lago di Garda is beautiful. (My BFF lived in Verona and worked 1/2 mile from the lake for 3 years.) But Venice is exceptional. Since you'll (presumably) be taking the train in - catch the Vaporetto outside the train station to get to your lodgings... It's a water bus... but just as fun as a water taxi... Still expensive but not in the $100 range a water taxi will charge you.

I spent a few hours debating between trying to do Lago di Garda by stopping there on the train then doing taxi or local bus, or renting a car in Milan, visiting the Lago then continuing on to Venice. With 3 kids, it would be too much hassle (and we're visiting at least one other beautiful lake - Lake Bled in Slovenia) so Venice it is. Now we'll have ~2 days there instead of just 1.

We found a decent airbnb a few minutes walk from the train station (on the western side of the Grand Canal) so we can walk and meet the host there for check in. Planning on walking over most of Venice and then taking a vaporetto back to the apartment once we're at St. Marks square or however far we get on Day 2. Those vaporettos are still crazy expensive!! 7 euros per ticket and the day pass is 20 euros IIRC. I think I can walk it and use the $ saved to buy gelato-fuel to keep the kids going

Those 2 days in Venice will be our most expensive of the whole trip probably but that's what we saved all this money for, right?

[explanade]

Week passes were like 50-60 Euro when I went there.

But both times I visited, I never saw them checking tickets. During the middle of the day, they are packed, standing room only. At each station, you have a lot of people disembarking and a lot of people replacing them.

If they were checking each ticket, they would slow things way down. Now maybe at each station they will install electronic turnstiles.

I'm not suggesting trying to use the vaporetti without tickets but I wouldn't be surprised if many were.

[audreyh1]

Hmmm - I just had chance to review how various credit cards operate in terms of verification (signature, on-line PIN, off-line PIN, no CVM required, etc.), and based on that I believe the Bank of America VISA credit cards should work with PIN in Europe. I did put the card into

Reviewing the Bank of America FAQs, confirms this.

Quote:

Using chip credit cards How does a chip credit card work? It's easy. If the retailer has a chip-enabled terminal, simply insert your chip card face up in the terminal. The chip card will remain in the terminal while the transaction is processed. To authorize your transaction, just follow the prompts on the terminal as you do today. You'll be prompted to enter your PIN or to provide a signature as you normally would to verify the transaction. Your card may be removed from the terminal once the transaction is completed. If the retailer is not equipped to read the chip card, just swipe as you do today. For transactions made over the phone or online, nothing changes. You can request your PIN by signing in to Online Banking, through our mobile app or by calling the number on the back of your card. Do I need a PIN to make purchases with my credit card? What are Chip & Signature and Chip & PIN? You may be required to sign or enter a PIN to complete a purchase. The term “PIN” or “Signature” simply refers to how you will authorize the transaction – either by entering a PIN or by providing your signature. The enhanced security against counterfeiting is contained within the chip itself. The chip makes the transaction more secure by encrypting information when completing a transaction at a chip-enabled terminal. As a result, both Chip & PIN and Chip & Signature transactions offer enhanced security against counterfeiting. You can request your PIN by signing in to Online Banking, through our mobile app or by calling the number on the back of your card.

When you ask for your PIN to be sent by mail, BofA says:

Quote:

Your credit card PIN can be used to make purchases at merchant terminals requiring a PIN and at ATMs for cash advances. See your credit card agreement for any transaction fees.

https://www.bankofamerica.com/privac...ip-card-faq.go
So - obviously the Bank of America VISA PINs are not only for cash advances at ATMs, but can be used for purchases as well.

I was once prompted at a kiosk to enter a PIN, and I was so surprised, I didn't even try it! If I'd thought about it for 10 seconds I would have remembered where to find the PIN.

This is cool for me, because it is my heaviest card used traveling overseas since it has no foreign transaction fee plus gives me 1.65% back in rewards (statement credit).

I investigated further after looking up the card in a EMV CVM database. Details about CVM lists and various cards are in this thread - http://www.early-retirement.org/foru...ml#post1853951.

Well, I guess I should add the relevant posts to this thread.

[audreyh1]

A CVM list is the Cardholder Verification Method list, and it gives the order in which the machine tries to verify the cardholder using an EMV (chip) card.

Using the PenFed VISA cards as an example (they all appear to have the same list):
CVM List

1. Signature (paper) - signature if available. This is what makes the PenFed card signature priority
2. No CVM required - This is for low-dollar transactions, at merchants in low-risk categories
3. Plaintext PIN verified by ICC - a.k.a "Offline Plaintext PIN" this confirms embedded PIN, and it is verified by the Integrated Circuit Card (ICC).

Cardholder Verification Method (CVM):

Quote:

In the context of a transaction, the method used to authenticate that the person presenting the card is the valid cardholder. EMV supports four CVMs: offline PIN (offline enciphered & plain text), online PIN, signature verification and no CVM. All CVMs can be available on all payment types (credit, debit and prepaid) as defined by the issuer. The merchant chooses which CVMs they will support. The issuer sets a prioritized list of methods on the chip for verification of the cardholder.

Plaintext PIN Also known as: • Offline Plaintext PIN

Quote:

Offline PIN processing in which the PIN entered by the cardholder is sent unencrypted, in plaintext, from the PIN pad to the chip card for verification.

Having an offline PIN is handy, because it doesn't require a kiosk to be connected to the VISA network to verify your PIN. It does it by talking to the card. An Online PIN has to be electronically sent to and validated by the card issuer. Some chip cards with PIN issued in the US require this method. Those are the kind you can call in to change your PIN.

References:
https://www.firstdata.com/downloads/.../EMV-A-toZ.pdf
https://www.quora.com/Step-by-step-H...d-payment-work
http://tsys.com/Assets/TSYS/download...ion-method.pdf

[audreyh1]

Here are some more lists from looking up various card issuers in the EMV CVM database site: EMV CVM Database
The reference links in the above post can answer questions about terminology.

Some Credit Cards:

Bank of America VISA Cards - the database indicates that they in fact can use PIN for purchases if the signature method is not available!
1: Signature (paper)
2: No CVM required
3: Enciphered PIN verified online

Conversely, the Chase cards have nothing to do with any PIN:
1: Signature (paper)
2: No CVM required

The Andrews credit card CVM list is exactly the same as the PenFed cards, indicating that they too have an offline PIN.
1: Signature (paper)
2: No CVM required
3: Plaintext PIN verified by ICC

The Barclaycard Arrival and Arrival Plus Mastercards have the longest CVM list.
1: Signature (paper)
2: Enciphered PIN verified online
3: Enciphered PIN verified by ICC
4: Plaintext PIN verified by ICC
5: No CVM required
So this one tries to verify the PIN online before going offline.

USAA has exactly the same list as Barclaycard for their VISA cards:
1: Signature (paper)
2: Enciphered PIN verified online
3: Enciphered PIN verified by ICC
4: Plaintext PIN verified by ICC
5: No CVM required

Some Debit Cards:

The Fidelity VISA Gold Check Debit Card issued by PNC bank:
1: Signature (paper)
2: Enciphered PIN verified online
3: No CVM required
This is interesting, because for me that card defaulted to "No CVM required" at all the French SNCF ticket kiosks I used around France, but I did get prompted for my PIN at the Schiphol (Amsterdam Airport) NS train/metro ticket machine. Entered the PIN and completed the transaction.

The Charles Schwab Bank VISA Platinum Debit Card uses the same list order as the Fidelity Debit VISA/ATM card
1: Signature (paper)
2: Enciphered PIN verified online
3: No CVM required

[joeprintz]

The Fidelity (Debit )Visa card works great.. It has a PIN and no issue anywhere. If you have any kind of a cash balance it is not considered a loan and they reimburse transaction fees.

[audreyh1]

I remember that Explanade posted a while back that they have a First Tech FCU MasterCard for Chip and PIN in Europe, but I didn't quite get that this is actually a PIN priority credit card (maybe the only US issued one - well the United Nations FCU may issue one). So people using it also enter PINs in the US - Target, Home Depot, Walmart, grocery stores, etc. Hey - you can even test it in the US!! No fee, Chip with PIN priority cards now available from First Tech Credit Union | MileCards.com

I may get this just to have a card that doesn't ask for signatures all the time in Europe. A small hassle factor. But I'd like to try it out. The big hotel bills and shopping will still go on my rewards travel card.

There are a couple of organizations you can join to become a member. I'm hoping there aren't geographic restrictions. Both DH and I retired from high-tech companies, so this should be our card!!!

Quote:

Members of either the Financial Fitness Association or the Computer History Museum are eligible for membership, regardless of residency or employment status.

[explanade]

I still have the card (no fee) but it's been months since I used it. It's a PITA to manage as far as payments. You have to set up a bank account with them and do an ACH transfer to th bank account. Then after it completes, transfer that to the credit card account in order to pay the balance off.

They have an app. too but it's not that great.

Instead, I try to use Apple Pay whenever possible. I'm in Spain now and Apple Pay has been great. Today I paid a hotel bill, about 236 Euros. Didn't have to sign for it at all. Just authenticated with my finger.

Lot of restaurants here have those wireless terminals they bring to your table to make the credit card transaction and they support wireless.

I will probably need the First Tech at some point. Rented a car so when I go to pay for gas, I'll try it at a kiosk but hoping that they support contactless at the pump, as some gas stations in the US have started doing.

It appears the big banks in Spain are supporting contactless for their credit card processing so really happy to see that.

[audreyh1]

I didn't notice places in Spain using Apple Pay much. I will definitely look for it in Europe on my next trip. That would be convenient. And I already have my credit cards set up to use it.

[braumeister]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 I didn't notice places in Spain using Apple Pay much.

I didn't see it at all in Switzerland last month. Cash is still very popular there.

[explanade]

The first couple of people were surprised it worked, same as in New Zealand. But the terminals display the contactless symbol (oval with waves) so I pulled out ny iPhone.

Only place it didn't work was some cafeteria at a distant beach where they had an older terminal.

[Fedup]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audreyh1 In general, credit cards are very widely accepted in Europe, especially in larger cities and major tourist areas. It's just that eventually you find exceptions especially if going off the beaten path of foreign visitors. It's good to carry some cash. We tended to use cash for smaller meals, grocery, bakery, taxis, etc. and some places have a minimum amount before they will accept a credit card. Worth noting to that cash is appreciated for tips as they often don't have a place to add it to the bill - only the fancier dining places. Tips are quite small, but it's good to have 1 or 2 euro and 50 cent coins on hand for this - or even just get rid of change. Of course tipping is completely optional and not everyone does.

I had one place in Vienna where it listed outside its window that all kinds of credit cards were accepted. Halfway through the meal and we asked for the bill, we were informed that cash is required. They told us the ATM nearby. Luckily we had some cash with us. I would be careful next time I sit down at any restaurant anywhere, and especially before ordering anything, I wouldn't assume what's posted at the window. Needless to say we were furious.

[explanade]

Or they'll say their credit card terminal is broken.

If I'm low on cash, I ask before ordering so I know that I can cover it.

[audreyh1]

Some restaurants in Europe had a ~€50 amount above which they took credit cards. In general we've had no problem, although we tend to pay cash for less expensive meals.

I ran into a problem in Friesland, because the restaurants at a seaside vacation area only accepted Maestro debit or cash. This is a situation specific to the Netherlands, but you have to have a Dutch bank account to get this card. Fortunately we had plenty of cash.

[brett]

We have used all types of hand held terminals in Europe and elsewhere. Some ask for pins, some mag stripes, some do one or the other and ask for signature. Used chip/pin this winter all over South America, Panama, and Costa Rica. Even in some of the smallest, hole in the wall places. I would have thought that the IT communication issue would be an issue. It never was. This always surprises us a little.

Walmart in Canada uses chip and pin technology. But no 'swipe and go' touch technology with the chip card like most other merchants including Costco (for smaller dollar amounts). Has done for quite some time. With swipe and go you simply touch the chip part of your card to the window of the hand held terminal...no need to even enter the pin.

Walmart in Canada recently stopped accepting Visa cards in limited number of their stores. The threat was that unless Visa gave them a better deal the embargo would roll out to other stores. After a month or so Visa and Walmart kissed and made up. Not sure what the outcome was.

I suspect one of the issues is processing fees and the disparity between cards. I would suspect that a card that returns 2 percent on purchases to the card holder costs more to transact on a retail per transaction basis that a card that provides no rebate or any other points incentive to the card holder. Perhaps the processing fee is a seperate charge from the transaction fee.

In Canada there has been some talk of the Government reviewing credit card transaction fees because of the monopoly situation and it's impact on small business. Not certain where this is but I believe that the threat has caused the processing firms to moderate their fee schedules.

[audreyh1]

I signed up for the First Tech World Elite MasterCard. Pretty decent rewards with no FTF, so I may use it quite a bit. Looking forward to trying the PIN priority - including in the US! (for testing purposes mainly)

You can compare the CVM list with the signature priority cards listed above:
1: Enciphered PIN verified online
2: Enciphered PIN verified by ICC
3: Plaintext PIN verified by ICC
4: Signature (paper)
5: No CVM required

https://www.spotterswiki.com/emv/car...pe%5B%5D=debit