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Old 10-03-2008, 11:08 AM   #21
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Wonder how Wells Fargo plans on offloading all of Wachovia's toxice debt they took on from Golden West, stick the taxpayers with it??
Bingo! All the sudden toxic debt has real value - maybe even full value. C and WFC fighting over a failed bank, the vultures are starting to feed.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:47 AM   #22
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Find yourself a credit union so you can stop playing bank roulette.
It's not roulette - more like very specific needs. I am continually amazed that the larger the bank the more difficult it is to satisfy a specific need.
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I have always been happy with my service from Citi. It's the only bank I've used for 10 years now. I guess my standards must be low?
More likely I just had some bad experiences combined with poor or no response to polite but firm complaint with request for action. My choice to leave C came when a manager told me he didn't give a sh*t (his exact words)
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:53 AM   #23
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2B, could you point me to a link for that?
See here http://www.fasb.org/news/2008-FairValue.pdf

Not a change, just a .. ehem ..clarification.
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:59 AM   #24
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I heard something this morning that this deal became attractive to WFC because of a recent IRS ruling that gives favorable tax benefits for buying a whole company, as opposed to the partial buyout that C was going for.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:18 PM   #25
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Bingo! All the sudden toxic debt has real value - maybe even full value. C and WFC fighting over a failed bank, the vultures are starting to feed.
wow! all of a sudden the hyena scene from Lion King popped into my head...
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:10 PM   #26
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I heard something this morning that this deal became attractive to WFC because of a recent IRS ruling that gives favorable tax benefits for buying a whole company, as opposed to the partial buyout that C was going for.
Ding, ding, ding! Those carry forward losses will make a blind man see. Right on target is http://www.irs.gov/irb/2008-39_IRB/ar10.html.
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:19 PM   #27
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Thanks for the link, Michael. That's going to be used to cover a lot of assets. Its comment about using cash flows to determine fair value is particularly pertinent to mortgage-backed securities...

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Geez. we cancelled our accounts in Citibank a few years ago - unbelievably bad service. Went to BOA - but they made us wait so long we up and left, went to WaMu. Things went well at first, but then a year later they refused to notarize a doc for me so we closed that and went to Wachovia. Man, I hope we don't end up back a Citi again.
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It's not roulette - more like very specific needs. I am continually amazed that the larger the bank the more difficult it is to satisfy a specific need.
More likely I just had some bad experiences combined with poor or no response to polite but firm complaint with request for action. My choice to leave C came when a manager told me he didn't give a sh*t (his exact words)
Three strikes and maybe a foul ball? One common element in this saga is the banks, but another common element is the customer. I guess it's hard to judge without more details about the specific needs. Are those needs able to be filled by a credit union?
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:39 PM   #28
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JPM bought WAMU for $1.9 billion, getting almost $150 billion in customer deposits. They saved FDIC $20 billion, meaning they have more favors to call in for the future.

That is a deal beyond any of Jamie Dimon's wildest dreams.......
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:45 PM   #29
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It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Citi is ticked, claimed they had an exclusivity agreement and have provided liquidity to WB. They are threatening a lawsuit, but if they really believed that had a chance, wouldn't they have rushed out today and gotten an injunction to prevent the deal from going through?
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:50 PM   #30
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Yep, not sure where Citi is going with this. Thought this was an interesting comment on their chances of prevailing should they file suit.

One lawyer said that while the [exclusivity] Agreement shows that Citi has a case, it's unlikely that it would be able to persuade a court to overturn the Wells-Wachovia deal.

"If Citi goes to court, how could they show lost profits in this market and with all those toxic assets [involved in the deal]?" asked Roger Cominsky, partner at law firm Hiscock & Barclay. "Talk about a pyrrhic victory. The court could say, 'Yes the agreement was violated, but your deal is dead and you don't have any lost profits.'"

Citi slams Wachovia-Wells deal, says it had exclusive rights - MarketWatch
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Old 10-03-2008, 03:17 PM   #31
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It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Citi is ticked, claimed they had an exclusivity agreement and have provided liquidity to WB. They are threatening a lawsuit, but if they really believed that had a chance, wouldn't they have rushed out today and gotten an injunction to prevent the deal from going through?
Citi was dumb on this one. Sure doesn't look like a Sandy Weill move........
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Old 10-03-2008, 03:40 PM   #32
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Thanks for the link, Michael. That's going to be used to cover a lot of assets. Its comment about using cash flows to determine fair value is particularly pertinent to mortgage-backed securities...



Three strikes and maybe a foul ball? One common element in this saga is the banks, but another common element is the customer. I guess it's hard to judge without more details about the specific needs. Are those needs able to be filled by a credit union?
Well, the reasons I dropped Citibank are quite legit. Lots of errors, some serious, and real hostility to the customers. They acted in a dishonest way, and that's when I called it quits.

My needs are easy to summarize.
Branch location in South Fl and North Il. Provides notary and medallion. Safety deposit box. Decent online banking systems.

I'll wait till this stuff settles down, then reassess. I'm considering buying a safe and getting my notary and medallion from Fidelity - that makes it a lot easier. Then lots of banking options.

Michael
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:36 AM   #33
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Well, the reasons I dropped Citibank are quite legit. Lots of errors, some serious, and real hostility to the customers. They acted in a dishonest way, and that's when I called it quits.

My needs are easy to summarize.
Branch location in South Fl and North Il. Provides notary and medallion. Safety deposit box. Decent online banking systems.

I'll wait till this stuff settles down, then reassess. I'm considering buying a safe and getting my notary and medallion from Fidelity - that makes it a lot easier. Then lots of banking options.

Michael
As a consumer, I'm happy with the prospect over the Wells-Wachovia merger, which hopefully will take place notwithstanding the rumblings of Citi over its exclusivity arrangement with Wachovia (can't figure out who purportedly signed this on behalf of the Wachovia Board, but it doesn't look like Robert Steele's signature).

I was once a customer of Citi, beginning when it used to be First National City Bank in NYC, and it provides horrible service on its retail banking side, which has been a dwindling base of its operations for a while. I'm not enamored with its brokerage side either, from its Smith Barney acquisition. In contrast, Wachovia, where I've had several depository and brokerage accounts, is very strong in these areas. (I also get a free safe deposit box from Wachovia.) I like the idea of having some of my banking and brokerage relationships in one strong financial institution and Wachovia used to fit that bill and right now the only one that fits that bill might be JP Chase Morgan.

For my personal accounts, a Citi-Wachovia Merger would have caused me to flee and migrate over to JP Chase Morgan, the next day. With Wells, this is one strong institution with excellent mortgage lending and servicing operations -- I have two mortgage loans with Wells and they are absolutely the finest I've seen for underwriting and servicing. They didn't let their standards go down in lending -- even with some modest exposure to subprime borrowers. Wells doesn't have brokerage operations and very small retail branch presence on the East Coast. Wells, with this merger, would join the ranks of Citi, JP Morgan, and Bank of America, in coast-to-coast retail banking.

And if the net operating losses of Wachovia can carry forward against Well's income over the next few years, shareholders in Wells should be flush with cash.
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Old 10-05-2008, 10:17 AM   #34
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Breaking news, opinion and commentary - Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Judge blocks Wells Fargo's takeover bid. Citi is entitled to a rebid or to try to force the terms of their FDIC brokered deal.
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Old 10-05-2008, 12:29 PM   #35
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I saw Kovacevich talking Friday and was impressed by his "ah, we get sued all the time" commentary. But, the man is retiring, so it may have been more like, "ah, let somebody else clean up the mess - I'm outta here".

It was surprising to see WFC go up so much on the news Friday. My first thought on hearing the news was that the price would take a hit. And Moody's and S&P did make some comments along those lines, but the price went up and held pretty good until the end of the day. I wonder if there wasn't some sort of general warm fuzzy feelings about this deal because it does send the signal that non-govt assisted deals are being done.

WFC has screwed with my AA by doing so damn well that I thought it might be an opportune time to lighten up some more there next week.
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:01 PM   #36
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WFC has screwed with my AA by doing so damn well that I thought it might be an opportune time to lighten up some more there next week.
Those overloaded types of asset-allocation problems really are a bitch, aren't they?!?
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:44 PM   #37
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Those overloaded types of asset-allocation problems really are a bitch, aren't they?!?
I wasn't meaning to yeehaw too much. Well, just a little maybe. But this one particular bit of data in black amongst the sea of red is heartening.
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Old 10-05-2008, 09:53 PM   #38
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Judge blocks Wells Fargo's takeover bid.
That didn't last long...

"New York State Supreme Court Justice Charles Ramos had issued an order late Saturday that temporarily blocked the merger of Wachovia with Wells Fargo.

Wachovia responded Sunday with lawsuits of its own. In a Sunday night ruling, the Appellate Division of State Supreme Court threw out the order by Ramos, the Associated Press reported. Citigroup said it would appeal the decision."

Countersuit overturns Citigroup ruling
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