class in the united states

This seems to be one of those polar issues. Some people appear to firmly believe that a large segment of people are born screwed no matter how hard they try. I dont get it.

I had nothing. I mean *nothing*. No college, hardly got out of high school, no vocational training, nothing. I was on my own with 2c in my pocket.

I could have decided I was a lost cause and not tried to learn something I could make money on. I could've gone on welfare and laid around complaining about my misfortunes; I worked 3 jobs instead. I could have knocked up one of the girls I went out with in high school or later; I wore a condom. I could have gotten involved with drugs as most of my friends were; I didnt. I could have worked some cheesy job instead of offering to work for free or at a ridiculous salary to get experience.

As much as it might upset some people, I just cant throw in the towel and say "Yeah, for 30-50% (or whatever) of the population, its out of their hands. They were screwed the day they were born".

So if its not helpful to say that, what IS helpful? Commisserate with the poor trodden upon? Pat them on the back and say that their lives turned out the way they did through no fault of their own? That destiny had it in for them and they had no hand whatsoever in how things ended up?
 
th said:
I could have worked some cheesy job instead of offering to work for free or at a ridiculous salary to get experience.
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TH,

Was this your secret of success? What are some other factors attributed your success?

Spanky
 
Sorry TH, your success and drive are unusual. And the "nothing" you came from and I came from is different than the "nothing" inner city abused children with scary schools come from. We have argued about motivation and drive before with no resolution.

But I do agree that the real issue is what we do about it. One is to have a good, solid education system with financial aid to the needy. I remember when I got out of high school, you could attend vocational/technical school for free to learn a trade. Sounds like a good idea to me. Work study is good. Job programs are good.

Another thing we can do is increase minimum wage. And subsidize day care.

Don't wait until it is too late to take a child out of a screwed up home situation. I have met too many mentally ill and scary young people.

I have even thought of other more radical things. Like mandatory public service or military service after high school for a year or two; where you get fed, clothed, and maybe a small stipend. Young people sure would learn a lot.

And while we are helping people learn skills to be productive, we need to acknowledge a few never will be productive and move on. Once my firm hired a developmentally disabled woman on some subsidized program to pick up coffee cups, etc in our office. She came with a full time assistant to "help" her. What a waste. We ended it fast.
 
Martha said:
I have even thought of other more radical things.  Like mandatory public service or military service after high school for a year or two; where you get fed, clothed, and maybe a small stipend.  Young people sure would learn a lot./quote]
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I don't think the Army would touch these people with 10 foot pole. The Army is not a late stage head start. It is only for people of at least average intelligence and socialization.

Mikey
 
Martha - I dont consider any of this 'arguing', nor am I listening to your perspective with deaf ears. I'm also not going to play tit-for-tat on how 'bad' my life was compared to anyone elses. Trust me, I had a lot of very unpleasant things happen to me as a kid and as a teenager.

Putting more money and education and "doing more" for people who wont do for themselves is noble, but I dont think its going to be productive. Teaching people that they have to rely on themselves and a tug on their own bootstraps might.

Spanky...The secret was simple. I didnt do dumb things and did what it took to get to where I wanted to be.

The start in business wasnt easy. I asked people to help me learn computer skills. When I thought I knew something, I walked into a computer store and asked for a job; they said they couldnt afford me so I worked for them for free until I felt like I was contributing so much they couldnt deny paying me...and they surprised me by writing me a check a few days before I was ready to ask for money. When I wasnt working there I was putting in hours at a macdonalds and washing dishes for a deli to make money. Then I took a job where I was driving so far the gas cost was eating most of my salary, but it was obvious to me it would be a great learning experience. I interviewed with the same big company I wanted to work for about 20 times before I finally got a crappy offer from them. Took it and worked there for 5 years until I had learned enough and met enough people, then got in on a couple of startups via people I had met. I always took chances when offered, made the best of situations, etc. The pay usually sucked. The jobs werent a lot better. But if I could build a skill or learn some facet of the business, I did it. I networked, kept in touch with people, maintained contacts. I had shoeboxes full of peoples business cards with notes all over them. I called everyone now and then to find out what they were doing, ask them for jobs, ask them to come work for me or my company.

Even the job at my last company was all opportunity. A guy that had worked for me had wanted a transfer to the west coast. I didnt want to lose him, but I helped him get the job he wanted. When I came to CA he helped get me a fairly lousy job at the company I ended up staying with until I ER'ed. Within six months I worked my way into a first line managers job, two years later I had a hundred people working for me, and a year after that I was matrix reporting to three vice presidents. At every review I told my manager I didnt care about salary, I wanted bigger incentive based bonuses and bigger stock grants. You know how that turned out...my $100k salary was lunch money compared to the 250-350k a year in realized bonuses and 300-700k a year in stock options when they vested.

Sure, there were screwups and I made mistakes all the time. Didnt make them twice. Ate a lot of ramen noodles and drove some crappy cars. Lived in some bad neighborhoods.

I think the bottom line is the thing thats biggest with me: personal responsibility for yourself and your actions. I think most people know what the right thing to do is and when they should do it. They choose. Passive choices are still choices. Some people make things happen for themselves, some people let things happen to them.

Granted I'm not an idiot and I had that going for me. But I was "out of favor" with my family at the time, so no help there. I had no money. I had no well-to-do friends to help me out. I was painfully shy and quiet as a teenager (yep, believe it) and had to overcome that to excel at what I ended up doing.

I could just as easily have ended up poor white trash with 2 kids by the time I was 21, working a crappy menial job, divorced at 30 and blaming circumstances for how my life ended up. Really, really easily.
 
th said:
Martha - I dont consider any of this 'arguing', nor am I listening to your perspective with deaf ears. I'm also not going to play tit-for-tat on how 'bad' my life was compared to anyone elses. Trust me, I had a lot of very unpleasant things happen to me as a kid and as a teenager.

Putting more money and education and "doing more" for people who wont do for themselves is noble, but I dont think its going to be productive. Teaching people that they have to rely on themselves and a tug on their own bootstraps might.
Click to expand...

Hey, I am a lawyer, almost all discussions are arguing. Arguing isn't a bad thing. :)
So how do you teach people they have to rely on themselves? By telling them they are out of the house at 18, get a job, and if you want to go to school, pay for it yourself? I think we can do a better job of giving people the tools so they can rely on themselves.

Raising minimum wage helps those who help themselves. After all, they are working. Subsidizing daycare does the same. Financial success correlates with education. Financial aid helps those who help themselves by going to school and getting an education. Of course, if you flunk out, you don't get any more financial aid.
 
Heh, heh, heh, heh!

This be a left handed INTJ post. Be Warned.
Since most/many of us are being shilled/paying the expenses of our mutual find managers - those with planners even more - why not - along the lines of Deep Throat:

Pay a management fee to those in the poverty biz - a fee off the wages of each person who falls into the clutches of the system - payable to the manager/caseworker as long as they can keep them working/progressing.

As long as my old man kept paying when I was little - the Met Life man always drove a Buick. I suspect some others were paying also - heh, heh, heh.

Greed is good. Follow the money. And per W. Edwards Deming - sometimes you need to change the red beads and white beds.
 
More money for day care and head start. Once kids get much older than that it's too late. I have a friend who came from a horrible home life. Dad was gone, mom is an alcoholic, several step-dads of various abusive levels. She struggled through and got a decent job, married a decent guy and owns a decent home. Her sister stays out all night, has mulitple boyfriends, begs to move in with her sister and robs them, gets pregnant and aborts, fights in the streets, gets arrested etc. etc.

So how much is nature, how much is nurture? You can see the affect of their environment in both of them, but one chose to have a life, and one didn't. Would subsidies helped the bad sister? Why did the good sister not need them? I don't pretend to know.
 
Ah hah then so counsel would have the jury believing that giving better tools to those that dont have them will solve the problem?

I see the 'give' word used too much. You give and people start waiting for the give. It'll come sooner or later they figure. It'll all work out for itself. Someone will help me. Someone will fix it. Its not my fault. It couldnt have been helped.

I figured out right about 14-15ish that if I didnt do it myself, I was at the mercy of a series of givers, many of whom wanted an ROI I couldnt afford to provide.

Excuse me if my argument was thin, I'm feeding rice cereal to a baby. Rather I'm transferring it to his face, where it then ends up on a napkin. Maybe later I'll just wipe some on the napkin directly and leave it at that...:p
 
The best part is when they blow rasberries at you when you're feeding them, espicially the stage 2 vegetable medly stuff. I should wear a painters smock. My grossed out reaction only encourages her. :)
 
I think it was Nords that suggested I invest in a 15x15 tarp.

The good news is starting tomorrow we should have pretty nice weather through December. Plus a covered patio. And a hose.
 
Martha said:
But I do agree that the real issue is what we do about it.  One is to have a good, solid education system with financial aid to the needy.  I remember when I got out of high school, you could attend vocational/technical school for free to learn a trade.  Sounds like a good idea to me.  Work study is good.  Job programs are good. 

Another thing we can do is increase minimum wage.  And subsidize day care. 

Don't wait until it is too late to take a child out of a screwed up home situation.  I  have met too many mentally ill and scary young people. 

I have even thought of other more radical things.  Like mandatory public service or military service after high school for a year or two; where you get fed, clothed, and maybe a small stipend.  Young people sure would learn a lot.
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"The Way We Never Were" and its followup propose a lot of the same programs. The author's point is that it's cheaper to provide free vo-tech training than it is to pay five years' welfare (or incarceration). But I think I'd much rather donate my $$ to the United Way than to the U.S. govt's latest "War on Poverty" program.

As for conscription, and speaking for the entire military, no way. We barely survived that the first time and we're never going back.
 
I had nothing.  I mean *nothing*.  No college, hardly got out of high school, no vocational training, nothing.  I was on my own with 2c in my pocket.
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TH,

Glad to see that you worked your I.Q. up enough to thrive in the High Tech arena of America. With no College, you had to have worked to get your intelligence up to compete and beat your rivals.

Also your perseverance in insuring that you were born with the right genes to avoid any disabling diseases is also admirable. I mean 1 bad gene that led to M.S. or a Brain Tumor could have put you out on the street. But unlike those poor bastards that accepted their genetic code, you worked to ensure that yours were of the highest caliber.

Regards,
 
Yeah, he's playing the one-note song of someone who is functionally disabled as proving that everyone has a reason to fail.

You do know, everyone does. Lots of them in fact. Most people dont have to work hard to find at least one. Which is good, a lot of people dont want to work that hard at finding why they didnt make it.

The fact is, 90-something percent of people have a reasonable intelligence level, a reasonably sound physical body, and the ability to learn. Almost everybody can work hard and make sacrifices if they want to.

Laurences example is a good one; why with the same circumstances does one sibling fail and one succeed?

You walk by thousands of smart, able bodied people who all had a chance to better themselves.

Theres only one reason why they didnt. And it isnt because someone didnt help them.
 
TH,
I am glad that you have a positive attitude about the intelligence level of the general population. 90 % seems high. It may be true that if one is willing to learn and is driven, the probability of success will be greatly enhanced (though not assured). Another factor, I think, is confidence and believing in your self. You have to believe that you can do it despite all odds, i.e., not having the educational background, lacking the social status, coming from a poor family, living in the ghettos, etc. Even more important is to never give up.

Spanky
 
I believe that as a practical matter, we are never going back to anything as ambitious as the Great Society. It was an abysmal failure. Black illegitamacy in the 60s was less than 30%. I think the latest figure is around 70%. When the Great Society began we had about 10-11% black poulation, many of whom qualified for G.S. programs. Also about an equal or somewhat larger number (not %) of whites. Today we have a "disadvantaged minority population of over 25%. By disadvantaged I mean those formally qualified for various preferences or subsidies.

Remember econ 101-whatever you subsidize, you get more of. Works for sugar and it works for poverty.

The modern strategy is loading the cost of these people onto the private sector as much as possible with things like affirmative action.

If a Democratic regime got in and passed targeted welfare type proposals, they would lose the House at the next midterm , the presidncy 2 years later, and probably the Senate by then too.

Also, the electorate seems more willing to waste huge sums of money on hopeless wars than on hopeless welfare schemes. This may change if we cannot get a handle on immigration of uneducated people from backward societies..  It is frightening to me that not only do these people bus tables and clean houses, they may also decide to vote.

Myself, I just wish I were Swiss. No underclass, and no wars.

Mikey
 
As I read this thread a few thoughts occurred to me. Minimum wage is a STARTING wage. Meaning you have no skills. If someone is still in a minimum wage job after 2-3 years then they are either not motivated to move up or they are/should be eligible for Gov't disability subsidies. Many of the people I have to deal with/arrest are employed in these type of jobs. Why is that? My guess is that they refused to learn to get ahead in society. If someone who is from a bad school and is abused why do we let them live if they are just going to be a burdon on society (sarcasm implied).

Free education based on income is a crock. Why should a person who isn't all that bright, but is from an impoverished family be given a better education than someone who is bright but from a family with more resources. This system seems to be in place now anyway. I attempted to obtain any assistance for college and was turned down by all. After I was out of my parents house a couple years I was finally able to obtain a Federal Loan. Still it's far from free and due to a poor choice in majors my degree is pretty much useless.

What it all boils down to is personal responsibility. If the person wants to succeed AND has the drive they will find a way. My mother-in-law dropped out of school in the 7th or 8th grade only to get her GED a couple of years later, without studying. She also went on to own several business and enjoy a fairly high standard of living, because she chose to succeed. The barriers to success are not placed on any person in particular. A few people, convicts, social outcasts, have barriers placed in their way because of personal choices not who they are.
 
Oh, well, I guess I am glad I am Norwegian. Maybe I'll move there. Or Canada.

:)

But Minnesota is home. At least it finally raised its minimum wage. Thanks a lot to my cousin who was given the "working class hero" award for her efforts on the minimum wage issue.

So I guess I'll stay here, vote, and lobby.
 
I have to agree with TH. Great story, TH, BTW. Since I was raised in poverty, and have siblings, some of whom have made it, and one who went to jail, I know TH is absolutely on the money. How can they come from the same family, mine, and wind up in the slammer? The same background, religious beliefs, same schooling, and the same parents. Answer: Choice, attitude. The day prior to my brother's arrest, DW and I happened to be in New Orleans, and went to his house at 3 p.m. We had to wake him up. First thing he did, was go to the mailbox cause it was time for his welfare check.

I like Martha's compassion, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The Great Society was/is an abysmal failure. My wife, BTW, worked in Head Start when it first began. How can it still be needed, after all these years?

BTW, what's the purpose of destroying the American Dream? Myth or not, do you really want us NOT to believe that anyone can achieve? Why? I got it; cause an ever growing government can help us, right. Instead of one Head Start, we can have two Head Starts.

Couple of quotes: "Politicians never accuse you of 'greed' for wanting other people's money --- only for wanting to keep your own money." [Joseph Sobran]

"America's abundance was created not by public sacrifices to 'the common good,' but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America's industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance -- and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way." [Ayn Rand]
 
I had nothing. I mean *nothing*. No college, hardly got out of high school, no vocational training, nothing. I was on my own with 2c in my pocket.

I could have decided I was a lost cause and not tried to learn something I could make money on. I could've gone on welfare and laid around complaining about my misfortunes; I worked 3 jobs instead. I could have knocked up one of the girls I went out with in high school or later; I wore a condom. I could have gotten involved with drugs as most of my friends were; I didnt. I could have worked some cheesy job instead of offering to work for free or at a ridiculous salary to get experience.
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TH you are a good person. I think we followed or stumbled down a similar path. Pride can be a dangerous thing but it kept me from collecting welfare. I never entertained the thought b/c I was a young, healthy person and I felt capable of earning a wage. I did the worst kind of work but beggars can't be choosers when you don't have certain qualifications. Invest in yourself.

Most of my friends never made it out of the hole. Funny and odd how most of their parents never encouraged them to do more or that there was more out there for them. Pop was poor and uneducated but he told me the world is full of opportunity if you work hard. That was all it took. If I made it anyone can. Not many people start out shoveling horse manure at 17 and end up on the ER forum.
 
mikey said:
I believe that as a practical matter, we are never going back to anything as ambitious as the Great Society. It was an abysmal failure. Mikey
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Totally disagree, Mikey. Read Coontz's books and the studies.

Minority poverty, illegitimacy rates, and other indicators have historically been much higher than for white Americans, especially in the 19th and early 20th centuries. During the 50s and by the end of the 60s much progress had been made for blacks & other minorities. (Hence the low starting numbers you quoted.) As these programs were cut in the 70s & 80s, and more importantly as America started getting competition from a new industrial world, minorities living in the industrial regions were hit very hard. Some studies placed their unemployment rates as high as 50%.

The "Great Society" made a lot of progress, although it created a huge amount of bureaucratic & fraudulent waste too. But the principles were sound then and they are today. I suspect charities & non-profits will be more successful (or at least less bureaucratic & more fiduciary) than govt programs.
 
Arrrgh....seems that these discussions try to avoid race issues, eventually succumb, and then are amended to avoid racism.

Remember reading stats that 75% of all illegitimately born in the US are to black mothers. Also, 75% of all black births are illegitimate. This was read sometime in the past decade, so not sure of most current stats. The uteri and ovaries of most races are remarkably similar.
People seem to conveniently forget that blacks are not the only minority group in the US. There is at least one other minority group that quickly comes to mind as having low rates of illegit. births, high rate of highschool/college completion, low percentage of utilization of public assistance, etc. etc etc whether you look at 1st, 2nd, or 3rd generation in the US.

Seems these discussions divide participants into groups:
1. those that use words like "personal responsibility, just do" and other verbs considered "active";
2. those that use words like "should, must, help";
3. those that use words like "tried, couldn't, can't, THEY."

Mikey, I agree on your reflections re: the Swiss. And based on many visits to that country, they seem to be contented and happy (on the world scale) especially in comparison to countries like Sweden.
 
P.S. said:
Mikey, I agree on your reflections re: the Swiss.  And based on many visits to that country, they seem to be contented and happy (on the world scale) especially in comparison to countries like Sweden.
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Actually Sweden is full of happy people too, if stats are to be believed:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_hap_net

They rank above Switzerland in this one and both rank in the top 10.  I recall news reports about other happiness rankings (it was years ago and I can't recall the source) that listed Denmark and Sweden near the top and that report even went into the tax situation (i.e. "yes we have high taxes, but we get benefits, so we're happy").  Different strokes...

Bulgaria, on the other hand...
 
Austin_Explorer said:
Actually Sweden is full of happy people too
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Have you SEEN their bikini team? :eek: I would be happy too!
 
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