College Math is Fuzzy Math

[Bamaman]

60% of college grads these days are women. The real problem is where in the world is your smart, educated daughter going to find a man who is her intellectual equal. Preferably an electrician or plumber who can help her pay off that big student loan.

I knew a young teacher with a Master's Degree. Her husband is an electrician and out earns her by at least 50%. Even adjusting for her additional time off, he still out earns her by a significant amount.

Learning how to build and maintain things is a valuable skill. Show me a plumber and I'll show you a man or woman who makes a good living.

Don't look down on an electrician (or any skilled union craftsman.) My mother worked at the IBEW and my father ran electrician apprentice programs at our power company. Both my uncles were also IBEW electricians.

I went to college to be eligible for the student deferment during the Vietnam war, and graduated in 4 years. I was an okay student, however it's doubtful I would have rated a spot in an IBEW electrical apprenticeship. Their standards and their curriculum were much more difficult (for 6 years) than almost all college courses.

 

[fasteddie911]

Definitely something I think about often for my kids sake, who are still years away from this decision. I feel like college has been pushed so hard, to the detriment of some, and the long term outcomes are sometimes questionable. We'll see what the future holds and what my kids think, but I certainly won't look down on them skipping 4yr college for community college, trade school, etc. We can certainly afford for them to go any school they wish (and we would pay for it) but money not spent on college can be saved and invested for their future, whether it be a downpayment, retirement, etc.

 

[ncbill]

The military is looking for thirty-something married women with children?

My relative was in his mid-30s, married, with minor children & a working spouse when he took the Army's offer.

He was allowed to enroll in a state medical school near his in-laws so the latter could help with child care.

 

[brokrken]

Take out those who make large bucks based on their college contacts and not their degree per se.

I have to disagree here. This is part of the benefit of going to college. My leg up came from my MBA program. I don't think the education added much for me. But, the contacts are what helped me most.

 

[brett]

A college or a university education is not purely about financial payback or opportunity.

It is much more than that. My four years in university changed how I saw the world, what I thought about. Looking back, it had a huge impact on my life-financial and otherwise. I had no idea the impact would be so long lasting...but it was. To this day I am so thankful that I had the opportunity and that I took advantage of it. It meant some sacrifices at the time but these were minor compared to the payback over the years.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I believe the push for "everyone" to go to collage has been detrimental in some ways. Not everyone is college ready, and trade schools can train you for some well paying careers.
I've read that the traditional "trade" jobs can not find enough workers--plumbers, electrician, appliance repair, etc.
I have a family member who did not go to college, yet he is making more money as an arborist in his own company than my husband did the last year he worked.

Very, VERY good point. At 18 years old...I was NOT ready for college. As a matter of fact, I dropped out of high school in my senior year. The reasons are varied and I need not cloud the internet with all the 1's and 0's with that information. Nonetheless, going into the Air Force was the correct thing for me and was pivotal in having a successful "professional" life.

Eventually, I got my GED (in which I scored exceedingly well; I wish knew that in 10th grade as I would have done that all along!) and now have several sheep skins I could hang on my wall (including a juris doctor/law degree). I did very well in college because...well, I had matured. Had I even *tried* going to college at 18, I don't think I would have done very well.

And thanks to the generous benefits from the Air Force, I have never had student debt, which is yet another blessing.

Last point...cost of education. My master's degree would have cost in the range of $20,000 (2008 dollars). My JD would have cost almost $120,000. If I recall, over 85% of students took loans for this degree. Oddly (or on purpose?) I used to be able to find exact dollar amount and percentage of students that took out government backed loans, but a diligent search has turned up nothing today. I can't help but think that the government is trying to "hide the ball" when it comes to the total amount of debt [-]they[/-] we are guaranteeing.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I was an okay student, however it's doubtful I would have rated a spot in an IBEW electrical apprenticeship. Their standards and their curriculum were much more difficult (for 6 years) than almost all college courses.

I tell people that the training I got in the Air Force was way more challenging than *any* degree I got...including the JD. It was no joke; if you failed a milestone exam, you got put into a job that wasn't very enjoyable and the information is given to you via fire hose.

 

[HFWR]

My relative was in his mid-30s, married, with minor children & a working spouse when he took the Army's offer.

He was allowed to enroll in a state medical school near his in-laws so the latter could help with child care.

We could get rid of universities altogether, and anyone who wants more education or training can just join the military.

 

[ncbill]

We could get rid of universities altogether, and anyone who wants more education or training can just join the military.

Why?

Still attend undergrad or grad school...just take the military's offer to pay for it.

It's what my kids (and many posters here) have done.

 

[armor99]

I think it comes down to this. There are some fields like engineering, medicine; law, where you really do need someone with more knowledge to help you get to that next level of understanding. I can honestly say I could have read engineering books for years, and it just would not have helped without professors helping to fill in the “blanks”.

Other fields... not so much....

 

[pb4uski]

I don't get the math either. I read that average student loan payment is $383/month... that's $4,716/year.... it doesn't seem to me to be a stretch to think that a college grad would earn $5k a year more than a non-college grad. One source indicated that the average college grad salary for 2019 was $51k.... so they should be able to make their student loan payments and still live reasonably well.

 

[pb4uski]

I have to disagree here. This is part of the benefit of going to college. My leg up came from my MBA program. I don't think the education added much for me. But, the contacts are what helped me most.

Totally opposite here... I have never had any benefit from any of my contacts at undergrad or my MBA program... in fact, no contact at all other than exchanging Christmas cards with a few undergrad friends... absolutely no contact at all with any of my MBA classmates or the school (other than donations).

 

[pb4uski]

My plumber / HVAC guy went to college and still decided to be a plumber. The old man had a plumbing / HVAC business and three sons. All went to college, two took over dad's business and the third is a accountant.
Learning accounting, marketing, finance and general knowledge doesn't hurt a Craftsman

BIL just retired after a ~30 year career as a plumber... worked for a company that did high-end clean rooms, et al... but he had an undergrad degree in management.

 

[RenoJay]

A college or a university education is not purely about financial payback or opportunity.



It is much more than that. My four years in university changed how I saw the world, what I thought about. Looking back, it had a huge impact on my life-financial and otherwise. I had no idea the impact would be so long lasting...but it was. To this day I am so thankful that I had the opportunity and that I took advantage of it. It meant some sacrifices at the time but these were minor compared to the payback over the years.

I don’t disagree, but I think there are other (potentially better) ways to learn about the world if that’s someone’s goal. Things I’ve done which expanded my horizons way more than college include traveling the world, writing a book, trying new scary experiences, moving to other parts of the country and starting businesses. What I “experienced” in college doesn’t hold a candle to most of those.

 

[Perryinva]

It works for STEM students in the US. In India or China, STEM oriented are a dime a dozen. But then, non STEM labor is a dime a thousand. It’s all perspective. I was an engineer. Degree required and while my contacts did nothing for me, that was mostly my own doing. I never tried because I never felt I needed to. Many of my college buddies, including my last roommate are many times wealthier than I am, because they knew how to network or had entrepreneurial skills which I do not. But without that degree, and a name school, at the time that opened the first doors, I would not have gotten where I am, which is farther than I ever imagined. Not because I got really far, but because I was too naive (as was everyone in my family’s circle, all trades people) to even imagine how the world of big money, business and success really operates and what it takes. I agree that the push for everyone to go to college is not helping the overall economy for most people.

 

[Jeb-NY]

I didn't see any mention of the problem with many college bound students choosing a career path that has no career at the end. If you come out of school with a degree that has no marketable value and you end up in a dead end job or flipping burgers it is hard to pay off the college loans.

 

[38Chevy454]

Agree 100%. College costs should be looked at as a ROI type financial decision.

I didn't see any mention of the problem with many college bound students choosing a career path that has no career at the end. If you come out of school with a degree that has no marketable value and you end up in a dead end job or flipping burgers it is hard to pay off the college loans.

 

[catii]

Worked my way through college, & graduated with debt of $1000 in 1968, & dual degrees in Chemical & Petroleum Engineering. Average earnings over past 50 years was $287,335, but part of that was running my own computer consulting business for engineers for 32 years. If you're an engineer, 99% chance you're using software that I helped to develop.

So I earned ~$14.4 million, & retired with no debt. Worked my okole off, but am happy with the results. Hard to see how a high-school graduate could compete with that, in any field.

 

[steveark]

While I have friends working in the construction business where degrees are not required, who are mega millionaires, the world is your oyster if you have the smarts to become a great chemical, mechanical or electrical engineer like I did. If you aren't STEM capable then a trade likely could out earn a liberal arts degree. Heck, delivering pizzas probably out earns a liberal arts degree and running a concrete operation or a lawn service definitely blows most liberal arts salaries away. If you've got a weirdly talented brain, go tech ed like I did. Otherwise find a need to serve and do it better than anyone else.

 

[GravitySucks]

Not all liberal arts majors are flipping burgers.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimber...duate-degrees-and-majors-of-fortune-100-ceos/

Lloyd Blankfein at Goldman and BofA Brian Moynahan have history degrees.

Also, isn't there some value to your life that was added by learning some non technical subject? Are we often confusing job training and education?

 

[pb4uski]

Not all liberal arts majors are flipping burgers.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimber...duate-degrees-and-majors-of-fortune-100-ceos/

Lloyd Blankfein at Goldman and BofA Brian Moynahan have history degrees. ...

Misleading post!.... while they may both have liberal arts degrees, they also both graduated from law school... a common path for such positions is liberal arts undergrad and then prestigeous school MBA and/or law degrees.... it is unlikely that they would not have risen to the levels that they have with just an undergraduate liberal arts degree.

 

[steelyman]

Not all liberal arts majors are flipping burgers.

Also, isn't there some value to your life that was added by learning some non technical subject? Are we often confusing job training and education?

Communication skills come to mind. Writing, speaking effectively carry over to many fields. Foreign language skills are being pursued by a number of people (those I’ve met locally anyway).

 

[38Chevy454]

Also, isn't there some value to your life that was added by learning some non technical subject? Are we often confusing job training and education?

I am an engineer and all the general education type courses (i.e some of the liberal arts courses) I took in college were IMHO just a waste of time. They did not provide any direct benefit that I have been able to credit with helping my career. I do feel that college is about more than just the book smarts you learn. It is also about maturing as a person, and being exposed to new things that your small world as a kid in hometown you likely did not get. Especially for STEM, you learn problem solving techniques that you then apply on the job. Sure the first job out of college is required to have that STEM degree and educational knowledge. You have the toolbox, but how you learn to use those tools are what determines your career path and success. I feel very little of my success was attributable to the liberal arts courses. Or maybe some would argue I am too much of a logical engineer to see the value of liberal arts

 

[Bruce]

When you do a cost-benefit analysis don't forget state and federal taxes. Just because you have an extra $25,000 in your pocket does not mean you have $25,000 to service your debt.

 

[razztazz]

I am an engineer and all the general education type courses (i.e some of the liberal arts courses) I took in college were IMHO just a waste of time. They did not provide any direct benefit that I have been able to credit with helping my career. I do feel that college is about more than just the book smarts you learn. It is also about maturing as a person, and being exposed to new things that your small world as a kid in hometown you likely did not get. Especially for STEM, you learn problem solving techniques that you then apply on the job. Sure the first job out of college is required to have that STEM degree and educational knowledge. You have the toolbox, but how you learn to use those tools are what determines your career path and success. I feel very little of my success was attributable to the liberal arts courses. Or maybe some would argue I am too much of a logical engineer to see the value of liberal arts

No, not a logical thinker. Depends on what you mean by "value". Those useless English courses must have been of some value.